LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!

Jez mon

Ben6899 wrote:

I don't think it's as straightforward as "Management / Subordinates". In organisations with particularly high-earning management, you'll typically find that those not quite as far up the hierarchy are also actually doing quite well.

Agreed. Just suggesting an alternative view

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

1 Look at the graph in the link. Those on higher incomes are more likely to vote Conservative. Those same people will be net beneficiaries of reduced taxes. It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together and work out why these people want a right wing government.

See how neatly that fits.

Also as far as I can tell, most people who are doing well are already of the view that they pay enough tax.

Well of course.

The difference being is that those on higher incomes tend to want to keep more of what they have earned. Whereas those on lower incomes tend to want to be given more of what other people have earned. One of those sounds more selfish than the other to me

Now get working! I've already done my bit

Assumptions again, Stevo.

tangled_metal

Do high earning individuals on million pounds plus remuneration work 100 times harder than people on 5 figure remuneration?

Can you really correlate level of work with level of earning? It seems to me that Stevo keeps on with this idea of hard working, high earners and slacker low earners. I personally don't have such a simplistic view. I know high earners who are lazy and low earners who are hard workers.

Also it's not about intelligence or education or any other single factor neither. I know of low education people earning what I view as a nice income. I know highly educated on low wages. I know of really intelligent people who had no interest in education and no ambition in life. One such guy worked physically very hard indeed but hid his intelligence well. Brought up on the wrong side of the tracks and other events created this guy.

Anyhow back to ideology. Ignore my brief refrain from over simplistic ideas on success and remuneration.

Ben6899

Jez mon wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

I don't think it's as straightforward as "Management / Subordinates". In organisations with particularly high-earning management, you'll typically find that those not quite as far up the hierarchy are also actually doing quite well.

Agreed. Just suggesting an alternative view

Of course.

Ben6899

Tangled Metal wrote:

Do high earning individuals on million pounds plus remuneration work 100 times harder than people on 5 figure remuneration?

Can you really correlate level of work with level of earning? It seems to me that Stevo keeps on with this idea of hard working, high earners and slacker low earners. I personally don't have such a simplistic view. I know high earners who are lazy and low earners who are hard workers.

Also it's not about intelligence or education or any other single factor neither. I know of low education people earning what I view as a nice income. I know highly educated on low wages. I know of really intelligent people who had no interest in education and no ambition in life. One such guy worked physically very hard indeed but hid his intelligence well. Brought up on the wrong side of the tracks and other events created this guy.

Anyhow back to ideology. Ignore my brief refrain from over simplistic ideas on success and remuneration.

Replace "hard" with "smart"?

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

1 Look at the graph in the link. Those on higher incomes are more likely to vote Conservative. Those same people will be net beneficiaries of reduced taxes. It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together and work out why these people want a right wing government.

See how neatly that fits.

Also as far as I can tell, most people who are doing well are already of the view that they pay enough tax.

Well of course.

The difference being is that those on higher incomes tend to want to keep more of what they have earned. Whereas those on lower incomes tend to want to be given more of what other people have earned. One of those sounds more selfish than the other to me

Now get working! I've already done my bit

Assumptions again, Stevo.

Based on what I've seen and heard RJS And of course pretty consistent with the data in the link I posted.

Stevo_666

Jez mon wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

1 Look at the graph in the link. Those on higher incomes are more likely to vote Conservative. Those same people will be net beneficiaries of reduced taxes. It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together and work out why these people want a right wing government.

See how neatly that fits.

Also as far as I can tell, most people who are doing well are already of the view that they pay enough tax.

Well of course.

The difference being is that those on higher incomes tend to want to keep more of what they have earned. Whereas those on lower incomes tend to want to be given more of what other people have earned. One of those sounds more selfish than the other to me

Now get working! I've already done my bit

I mean, you could argue that generally the people at the bottom of the pyramid are providing the service and earning the money, with the management frequently just sifting off more than their fair share.

Ever heard of market forces as applied to the job market Jez? This is how things work in real life.

Jez mon

Stevo 666 wrote:

Ever heard of market forces as applied to the job market Jez? This is how things work in real life.

I thought you earned a high salary due to hard work, not market forces?

Stevo_666

Jez mon wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Ever heard of market forces as applied to the job market Jez? This is how things work in real life.

I thought you earned a high salary due to hard work, not market forces?

A combination of factors including those two.

Stevo_666

Tangled Metal wrote:

Do high earning individuals on million pounds plus remuneration work 100 times harder than people on 5 figure remuneration?

Can you really correlate level of work with level of earning? It seems to me that Stevo keeps on with this idea of hard working, high earners and slacker low earners. I personally don't have such a simplistic view. I know high earners who are lazy and low earners who are hard workers.

Also it's not about intelligence or education or any other single factor neither. I know of low education people earning what I view as a nice income. I know highly educated on low wages. I know of really intelligent people who had no interest in education and no ambition in life. One such guy worked physically very hard indeed but hid his intelligence well. Brought up on the wrong side of the tracks and other events created this guy.

Anyhow back to ideology. Ignore my brief refrain from over simplistic ideas on success and remuneration.

Uh oh, the obsession with the tiny number of individuals at the top of large corporates who earn really big bucks. As ever, a matter for the shareholders not the jealous or resentful.

And of course there are several factors involved in what people get paid. Where did I say hard work was the only factor?

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

1 Look at the graph in the link. Those on higher incomes are more likely to vote Conservative. Those same people will be net beneficiaries of reduced taxes. It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together and work out why these people want a right wing government.

See how neatly that fits.

Also as far as I can tell, most people who are doing well are already of the view that they pay enough tax.

Well of course.

The difference being is that those on higher incomes tend to want to keep more of what they have earned. Whereas those on lower incomes tend to want to be given more of what other people have earned. One of those sounds more selfish than the other to me

Now get working! I've already done my bit

Assumptions again, Stevo.

Based on what I've seen and heard RJS And of course pretty consistent with the data in the link I posted.

I was referring to your last line.

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

1 Look at the graph in the link. Those on higher incomes are more likely to vote Conservative. Those same people will be net beneficiaries of reduced taxes. It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together and work out why these people want a right wing government.

See how neatly that fits.

Also as far as I can tell, most people who are doing well are already of the view that they pay enough tax.

Well of course.

The difference being is that those on higher incomes tend to want to keep more of what they have earned. Whereas those on lower incomes tend to want to be given more of what other people have earned. One of those sounds more selfish than the other to me

Now get working! I've already done my bit

Assumptions again, Stevo.

Based on what I've seen and heard RJS And of course pretty consistent with the data in the link I posted.

I was referring to your last line.

Funny that, I know how much I've contributed to society this year, as it's on my HMRC personal tax account

robert88

Jez mon wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Ever heard of market forces as applied to the job market Jez? This is how things work in real life.

I thought you earned a high salary due to hard work, not market forces?

After Brexit we should go back to the good old days when you earned a high salary if you'd survived the Black Death.

tangled_metal

Ben6899 wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Do high earning individuals on million pounds plus remuneration work 100 times harder than people on 5 figure remuneration?

Can you really correlate level of work with level of earning? It seems to me that Stevo keeps on with this idea of hard working, high earners and slacker low earners. I personally don't have such a simplistic view. I know high earners who are lazy and low earners who are hard workers.

Also it's not about intelligence or education or any other single factor neither. I know of low education people earning what I view as a nice income. I know highly educated on low wages. I know of really intelligent people who had no interest in education and no ambition in life. One such guy worked physically very hard indeed but hid his intelligence well. Brought up on the wrong side of the tracks and other events created this guy.

Anyhow back to ideology. Ignore my brief refrain from over simplistic ideas on success and remuneration.

Replace "hard" with "smart"?

But people don't use that word they use hard. Smart people keeping this hard work view going and implying low earnings equate to low work effort in the process.

tangled_metal

Stevo 666 wrote:

Tangled Metal wrote:

Do high earning individuals on million pounds plus remuneration work 100 times harder than people on 5 figure remuneration?

Can you really correlate level of work with level of earning? It seems to me that Stevo keeps on with this idea of hard working, high earners and slacker low earners. I personally don't have such a simplistic view. I know high earners who are lazy and low earners who are hard workers.

Also it's not about intelligence or education or any other single factor neither. I know of low education people earning what I view as a nice income. I know highly educated on low wages. I know of really intelligent people who had no interest in education and no ambition in life. One such guy worked physically very hard indeed but hid his intelligence well. Brought up on the wrong side of the tracks and other events created this guy.

Anyhow back to ideology. Ignore my brief refrain from over simplistic ideas on success and remuneration.

Uh oh, the obsession with the tiny number of individuals at the top of large corporates who earn really big bucks. As ever, a matter for the shareholders not the jealous or resentful.

And of course there are several factors involved in what people get paid. Where did I say hard work was the only factor?

If it comes across in my posts that I'm jealous of very high earners then it's not my actual view. It is none of my business unless it has an affect on me personally such as a company director taking a renumeration that's harming the company I work for or the earnings of my investments. If it doesn't affect me personally is their business.

As to other factors well Stevo it is just my impression that whilst you refer to other factors, the hard work factor seems to be brought up more often by you and others with your political viewpoint.

I guess I'm a rare right winger who doesn't see hard work as even enough to get on in life. Exposure to the harsh end of life has not turned me Leftie yet despite what this might sound like.

rick_chasey

The whole envy trope on the right is weird.

Mate, unless you’re a proper conspicuous consuming knobber no one gives a sh!t about your bank balance.

They care about their own and if there’s not much in it they tend to support politics that they think will improve that.

Earning more money than others doesn’t signify much else beyond the fact itself. To what end?

Specifically for me it’s a particularly weird attack as I spend my time dealing in comp that is multiples of my comp every day - the bigger the multiple, the more profitable it is for my firm.

If you’re a treasurer I can pretty much work our what you’re on anyway, since I know the going rates for em.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

1 Look at the graph in the link. Those on higher incomes are more likely to vote Conservative. Those same people will be net beneficiaries of reduced taxes. It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together and work out why these people want a right wing government.

See how neatly that fits.

Also as far as I can tell, most people who are doing well are already of the view that they pay enough tax.

Well of course.

The difference being is that those on higher incomes tend to want to keep more of what they have earned. Whereas those on lower incomes tend to want to be given more of what other people have earned. One of those sounds more selfish than the other to me

Now get working! I've already done my bit

Assumptions again, Stevo.

Based on what I've seen and heard RJS And of course pretty consistent with the data in the link I posted.

I was referring to your last line.

Funny that, I know how much I've contributed to society this year, as it's on my HMRC personal tax account

:roll: No, the implied assumptions about me. Any fool can see how much income tax they've paid. As you've pointed out yourself, paying your taxes is not a moral choice, just doing what you are legally required to do. There's no moral superiority in paying higher rate tax.

bompington

Of course, PM Corbyn could just pass a law redistributing the entirety of every FTSE100 CEO's pay to everyone else.

Then we could all luxuriate in the extra £1.50 a month that would give us.

rjsterry

bompington wrote:

Of course, PM Corbyn could just pass a law redistributing the entirety of every FTSE100 CEO's pay to everyone else.

Then we could all luxuriate in the extra £1.50 a month that would give us.

He might want to, but he couldn't.

Pross

Can someone define right leaning and left leaning please? I've voted Conservative more often than not in the 6 General Elections that I've been able to vote in and always thought of myself as centre right. I don't like the idea of people who deliberately choose not to work being as well off as those working a full week on minimum wage but I also feel the answer is to help those working to be better off rather than reducing the earnings of those who don't / can't work. Many jobs are undervalued e.g. someone caring for those approaching the end of their life or with disabilities will often be getting minimum wage and yet I would say they are working at least as hard as me and probably benefiting society more. Salary level and wealth do not reflect worth other than, potentially, contribution to the economy. If I ever find myself in a care home I'd much rather be looked after by someone who has chosen that as a career rather than someone who is there because they can't get a job anywhere else and the care provider can't get better staff. At the same time I do feel that there is a definite envy and feeling of entitlement amongst many that identify as being left wing and a failure to appreciate that those richer than them may be contributing to society in their working lives in less obvious ways.

kingstongraham

Stevo 666 wrote:

Funny that, I know how much I've contributed to society this year, as it's on my HMRC personal tax account

You contribute with money then, which is fine - I'm the same. I wouldn't say that everyone contributes to society just with money.

surrey_commuter

Pross wrote:

Can someone define right leaning and left leaning please? I've voted Conservative more often than not in the 6 General Elections that I've been able to vote in and always thought of myself as centre right. I don't like the idea of people who deliberately choose not to work being as well off as those working a full week on minimum wage but I also feel the answer is to help those working to be better off rather than reducing the earnings of those who don't / can't work. Many jobs are undervalued e.g. someone caring for those approaching the end of their life or with disabilities will often be getting minimum wage and yet I would say they are working at least as hard as me and probably benefiting society more. Salary level and wealth do not reflect worth other than, potentially, contribution to the economy. If I ever find myself in a care home I'd much rather be looked after by someone who has chosen that as a career rather than someone who is there because they can't get a job anywhere else and the care provider can't get better staff. At the same time I do feel that there is a definite envy and feeling of entitlement amongst many that identify as being left wing and a failure to appreciate that those richer than them may be contributing to society in their working lives in less obvious ways.

Probably not possible to define as it is so much in the eye of the beholder. The Chairman of your local Tory Assoc probably sees Cameron as "left leaning". Corbyn undoubtedly would see Blair as "right leaning"

rjsterry

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Pross wrote:

Can someone define right leaning and left leaning please? I've voted Conservative more often than not in the 6 General Elections that I've been able to vote in and always thought of myself as centre right. I don't like the idea of people who deliberately choose not to work being as well off as those working a full week on minimum wage but I also feel the answer is to help those working to be better off rather than reducing the earnings of those who don't / can't work. Many jobs are undervalued e.g. someone caring for those approaching the end of their life or with disabilities will often be getting minimum wage and yet I would say they are working at least as hard as me and probably benefiting society more. Salary level and wealth do not reflect worth other than, potentially, contribution to the economy. If I ever find myself in a care home I'd much rather be looked after by someone who has chosen that as a career rather than someone who is there because they can't get a job anywhere else and the care provider can't get better staff. At the same time I do feel that there is a definite envy and feeling of entitlement amongst many that identify as being left wing and a failure to appreciate that those richer than them may be contributing to society in their working lives in less obvious ways.

Probably not possible to define as it is so much in the eye of the beholder. The Chairman of your local Tory Assoc probably sees Cameron as "left leaning". Corbyn undoubtedly would see Blair as "right leaning"

And we're only really looking at the economic side of political affiliation. There are the social aspects to consider. It's perfectly possible to combine left-wing economics with an ultra-conservative social position.

rjsterry

KingstonGraham wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Funny that, I know how much I've contributed to society this year, as it's on my HMRC personal tax account

You contribute with money then, which is fine - I'm the same. I wouldn't say that everyone contributes to society just with money.

But money is so much easier to count.

Stevo_666

KingstonGraham wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Funny that, I know how much I've contributed to society this year, as it's on my HMRC personal tax account

You contribute with money then, which is fine - I'm the same. I wouldn't say that everyone contributes to society just with money.

If you can find a way to pay the running costs of the NHS and the education system with honourable intentions and the like then please let me know. I haven't gone into the other non-monetary ways that I give something back as to be quite honest, the financial contribution is already plenty.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Funny that, I know how much I've contributed to society this year, as it's on my HMRC personal tax account

You contribute with money then, which is fine - I'm the same. I wouldn't say that everyone contributes to society just with money.

If you can find a way to pay the running costs of the NHS and the education system with honourable intentions and the like then please let me know. I haven't gone into the other non-monetary ways that I give something back as to be quite honest, the financial contribution is already plenty.

I would have thought the obvious example in the NHS is the number of volunteers it relies on. Plus the charitable appeals for a new scanner or whatever. There's a lot of volunteering in education as well.

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Funny that, I know how much I've contributed to society this year, as it's on my HMRC personal tax account

You contribute with money then, which is fine - I'm the same. I wouldn't say that everyone contributes to society just with money.

If you can find a way to pay the running costs of the NHS and the education system with honourable intentions and the like then please let me know. I haven't gone into the other non-monetary ways that I give something back as to be quite honest, the financial contribution is already plenty.

I would have thought the obvious example in the NHS is the number of volunteers it relies on. Plus the charitable appeals for a new scanner or whatever. There's a lot of volunteering in education as well.

How much do you think the voluntary part comprises of (say) the NHS? As the saying goes, it doesn't grow on trees.
https://fullfact.org/health/what-is-the-nhs-budget/

kingstongraham

Stevo 666 wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Funny that, I know how much I've contributed to society this year, as it's on my HMRC personal tax account

You contribute with money then, which is fine - I'm the same. I wouldn't say that everyone contributes to society just with money.

If you can find a way to pay the running costs of the NHS and the education system with honourable intentions and the like then please let me know. I haven't gone into the other non-monetary ways that I give something back as to be quite honest, the financial contribution is already plenty.

I would have thought the NHS and education are prime examples where lots of people earn less than their potential elsewhere and provide a contribution to society.

Stevo_666

KingstonGraham wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Funny that, I know how much I've contributed to society this year, as it's on my HMRC personal tax account

You contribute with money then, which is fine - I'm the same. I wouldn't say that everyone contributes to society just with money.

If you can find a way to pay the running costs of the NHS and the education system with honourable intentions and the like then please let me know. I haven't gone into the other non-monetary ways that I give something back as to be quite honest, the financial contribution is already plenty.

I would have thought the NHS and education are prime examples where lots of people earn less than their potential elsewhere and provide a contribution to society.

They still need to be paid for - who does that then? Here's a couple of clues...
https://fullfact.org/economy/what-do-wealthiest-pay-tax/
https://www.pwc.co.uk/services/tax/total-tax-contribution-100-group.html

kingstongraham

Stevo 666 wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Funny that, I know how much I've contributed to society this year, as it's on my HMRC personal tax account

You contribute with money then, which is fine - I'm the same. I wouldn't say that everyone contributes to society just with money.

If you can find a way to pay the running costs of the NHS and the education system with honourable intentions and the like then please let me know. I haven't gone into the other non-monetary ways that I give something back as to be quite honest, the financial contribution is already plenty.

I would have thought the NHS and education are prime examples where lots of people earn less than their potential elsewhere and provide a contribution to society.

They still need to be paid for - who does that then? Here's a couple of clues...
https://fullfact.org/economy/what-do-wealthiest-pay-tax/
https://www.pwc.co.uk/services/tax/total-tax-contribution-100-group.html

You're missing the point - this isn't in any way an attack on people like you and me who are in the privileged position to pay more tax than average.