LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!

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  • ben6899ben6899 Posts: 7,067
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    It's possible to be financially comfortable and left leaning. I'm lucky enough to have never needed credit to buy new cars. A steady royalty payment helps.
    Possible, but there is a clear correlation between being less well off and voting Labour (and conversely, being financially successful and voting Conservative):
    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/to-explain-voting-intentions-income-is-more-important-for-the-conservatives-than-for-labour/[/quote]

    It's not just possible, Stevo, it's an actual thing. Well off people are left- as well as right-leaning. It doesn't take a genius to understand why financially successful people tend to vote Conservative. It's just a shame the trend is such and that more people don't think about those not as fortunate as themselves.
    Ben

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  • Robert88Robert88 Posts: 2,722
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Robert88 wrote:
    As it happens I am trying to guess the low point although with yields over 6% ..
    As ever, a tricky call. The uncertainty may well last for a while but it depends to what extent this is already priced in.

    Many experts argue that trying to buy and sell on cycles is a fools errand as you should be holding shares as part of a long term strategy.

    That is certainly Mr Buffet's view.

    I hope I can have a long term strategy aged 88.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 7,321
    ben6899 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Possible, but there is a clear correlation between being less well off and voting Labour (and conversely, being financially successful and voting Conservative):
    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/to-explain-voting-intentions-income-is-more-important-for-the-conservatives-than-for-labour/

    It's not just possible, Stevo, it's an actual thing. Well off people are left- as well as right-leaning. It doesn't take a genius to understand why financially successful people tend to vote Conservative. It's just a shame the trend is such and that more people don't think about those not as fortunate as themselves.

    It's about which party strikes the right balance - most people have an understanding that a decent society is something that needs to be paid for. Me personally being taxed less does not necessarily give me the best overall outcome.
    and then the next thing you know
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,242
    ben6899 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Possible, but there is a clear correlation between being less well off and voting Labour (and conversely, being financially successful and voting Conservative):
    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/to-explain-voting-intentions-income-is-more-important-for-the-conservatives-than-for-labour/

    It's not just possible, Stevo, it's an actual thing. Well off people are left- as well as right-leaning. It doesn't take a genius to understand why financially successful people tend to vote Conservative. It's just a shame the trend is such and that more people don't think about those not as fortunate as themselves.
    Of course it's possible to have left leaning well off people, but as the numbers show, there are less of the former than right leaning well off people.

    As for your statement about why more people don't think of others (implication being that they are tory voters/right leaning); of course if you have worked hard and done well then it's human nature to want to have those rewards for yourself and your family. Also the likely reason for a fair proportion of people being left leaning is that they want more of other people's money: to me, that sounds a bit selfish.
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  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 8,424

    not something I know a whole lot about but that does look a little too simplistic. Didn't Japan's troubles start in about 1990 so way more than a lost decade and surely most of their problems stem from the fall in working population with no way out?

    Doesn't that sound familiar?

    our working age population is forecast to carry on growing.

    IMHO our post GFC performance is not long enough to call as a new normal when it might well be a blip in response to exceptional circumstances.

    I also think that historically there are stronger trends coming from the USA than Japan which is a very different economy with very different issues.

    Is that true as a percentage?

    good question (with no easily Google answer) but we have the option of allowing net immigration whereas Japan is still a closed society
  • ben6899ben6899 Posts: 7,067
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    ben6899 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Possible, but there is a clear correlation between being less well off and voting Labour (and conversely, being financially successful and voting Conservative):
    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/to-explain-voting-intentions-income-is-more-important-for-the-conservatives-than-for-labour/

    It's not just possible, Stevo, it's an actual thing. Well off people are left- as well as right-leaning. It doesn't take a genius to understand why financially successful people tend to vote Conservative. It's just a shame the trend is such and that more people don't think about those not as fortunate as themselves.
    Of course it's possible to have left leaning well off people, but as the numbers show, there are less of the former than right leaning well off people.

    As for your statement about why more people don't think of others (implication being that they are tory voters/right leaning); of course if you have worked hard and done well then it's human nature to want to have those rewards for yourself and your family. Also the likely reason for a fair proportion of people being left leaning is that they want more of other people's money: to me, that sounds a bit selfish.

    I've worked hard and done well and I have rewards for me and my family. I also think it's the right and proper thing to push for a society that is as fair as possible for everyone. If that means I pay a bit more tax to provide welfare for those who might not be as fortunate as me, then that's how it is. Of course, it's eminently possible to do this AND still be smart with money to one's own benefit.

    I think saying left-leaning people are such because they want other people's money is a bit of a stretch, in all fairness!
    Ben

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  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 8,424
    ben6899 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    ben6899 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Possible, but there is a clear correlation between being less well off and voting Labour (and conversely, being financially successful and voting Conservative):
    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/to-explain-voting-intentions-income-is-more-important-for-the-conservatives-than-for-labour/

    It's not just possible, Stevo, it's an actual thing. Well off people are left- as well as right-leaning. It doesn't take a genius to understand why financially successful people tend to vote Conservative. It's just a shame the trend is such and that more people don't think about those not as fortunate as themselves.
    Of course it's possible to have left leaning well off people, but as the numbers show, there are less of the former than right leaning well off people.

    As for your statement about why more people don't think of others (implication being that they are tory voters/right leaning); of course if you have worked hard and done well then it's human nature to want to have those rewards for yourself and your family. Also the likely reason for a fair proportion of people being left leaning is that they want more of other people's money: to me, that sounds a bit selfish.

    I've worked hard and done well and I have rewards for me and my family. I also think it's the right and proper thing to push for a society that is as fair as possible for everyone. If that means I pay a bit more tax to provide welfare for those who might not be as fortunate as me, then that's how it is. Of course, it's eminently possible to do this AND still be smart with money to one's own benefit.

    I think saying left-leaning people are such because they want other people's money is a bit of a stretch, in all fairness!

    A bit more tax is very subjective - what is the max rate of income tax that you would be happy paying?
  • ben6899ben6899 Posts: 7,067
    It's incredibly subjective, agreed. I would have to give it some thought, in all honesty.
    Ben

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  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,245
    I think it is useful to remember that only the top two quintiles are net contributors (in tax/benefit terms of course).

    I'm not clear how wanting to keep the rewards of one's efforts to oneself does not count as being selfish - it would seem to be the definition of the word.
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  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 7,321
    ben6899 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    ben6899 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Possible, but there is a clear correlation between being less well off and voting Labour (and conversely, being financially successful and voting Conservative):
    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/to-explain-voting-intentions-income-is-more-important-for-the-conservatives-than-for-labour/

    It's not just possible, Stevo, it's an actual thing. Well off people are left- as well as right-leaning. It doesn't take a genius to understand why financially successful people tend to vote Conservative. It's just a shame the trend is such and that more people don't think about those not as fortunate as themselves.
    Of course it's possible to have left leaning well off people, but as the numbers show, there are less of the former than right leaning well off people.

    As for your statement about why more people don't think of others (implication being that they are tory voters/right leaning); of course if you have worked hard and done well then it's human nature to want to have those rewards for yourself and your family. Also the likely reason for a fair proportion of people being left leaning is that they want more of other people's money: to me, that sounds a bit selfish.

    I've worked hard and done well and I have rewards for me and my family. I also think it's the right and proper thing to push for a society that is as fair as possible for everyone. If that means I pay a bit more tax to provide welfare for those who might not be as fortunate as me, then that's how it is. Of course, it's eminently possible to do this AND still be smart with money to one's own benefit.

    I think saying left-leaning people are such because they want other people's money is a bit of a stretch, in all fairness!

    A bit more tax is very subjective - what is the max rate of income tax that you would be happy paying?

    That obviously depends on the services that are provided.
    and then the next thing you know
  • TheBlueBeanTheBlueBean Posts: 8,251
    rjsterry wrote:
    I think it is useful to remember that only the top two quintiles are net contributors (in tax/benefit terms of course).

    Everyone is a net recipient at some point. I just consider it repaying the debt accrued during childhood.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 5,256
    Stevo 666 wrote:

    As for your statement about why more people don't think of others (implication being that they are tory voters/right leaning); of course if you have worked hard and done well then it's human nature to want to have those rewards for yourself and your family. Also the likely reason for a fair proportion of people being left leaning is that they want more of other people's money: to me, that sounds a bit selfish.

    What about those who have worked hard but not done well, or those who have worked hard, done well but not made a lot of money...or is doing well purely about money and is necessarily the result of working hard?

    You've got a very selfish view of the world, basically taking advantage of so many hard working people whose work wasn't directed so effectively at self enrichment.
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,242
    ben6899 wrote:
    It's incredibly subjective, agreed. I would have to give it some thought, in all honesty.
    Go on then.

    In my very subjective view, the top marginal rate should not be more than 40% on income, on the basis that you should be able to keep a clear majority of what you earn.
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,242
    Stevo 666 wrote:

    As for your statement about why more people don't think of others (implication being that they are tory voters/right leaning); of course if you have worked hard and done well then it's human nature to want to have those rewards for yourself and your family. Also the likely reason for a fair proportion of people being left leaning is that they want more of other people's money: to me, that sounds a bit selfish.

    What about those who have worked hard but not done well, or those who have worked hard, done well but not made a lot of money...or is doing well purely about money and is necessarily the result of working hard?

    You've got a very selfish view of the world, basically taking advantage of so many hard working people whose work wasn't directed so effectively at self enrichment.
    Bit hard to work out tax rates based on subjective such as whether someone has worked hard or 'deserves it' so the reality is you tax based on the amount of income.

    Given that higher earners are effectively subsidising people who earn less than a certain amount, how does that make higher earners selfish? On that basis, many people are less selfish than you. Now get back to work and put that right :wink:
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,242
    rjsterry wrote:
    I think it is useful to remember that only the top two quintiles are net contributors (in tax/benefit terms of course).

    I'm not clear how wanting to keep the rewards of one's efforts to oneself does not count as being selfish - it would seem to be the definition of the word.
    I mentioned family above very deliberately above but I knew that in any event some leftie would come up with the tired old 'me me me' accusation :wink:
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,242
    TheBigBean wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    I think it is useful to remember that only the top two quintiles are net contributors (in tax/benefit terms of course).

    Everyone is a net recipient at some point. I just consider it repaying the debt accrued during childhood.
    True, I suppose the overall picture is one over time, but the principle still stands.
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  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,245
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    I think it is useful to remember that only the top two quintiles are net contributors (in tax/benefit terms of course).

    I'm not clear how wanting to keep the rewards of one's efforts to oneself does not count as being selfish - it would seem to be the definition of the word.
    I mentioned family above very deliberately above but I knew that in any event some leftie would come up with the tired old 'me me me' accusation :wink:
    Am I a leftie? My point was that both your examples could be considered selfish; or neither. I don't think one's selfishness is related to one's political views.
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  • TheBlueBeanTheBlueBean Posts: 8,251
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    I think it is useful to remember that only the top two quintiles are net contributors (in tax/benefit terms of course).

    Everyone is a net recipient at some point. I just consider it repaying the debt accrued during childhood.
    True, I suppose the overall picture is one over time, but the principle still stands.

    Especially as you need to get into credit prior to retiring. Plus there is always the possibility of suddenly contracting a serious and expensive medical problem.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,242
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    I think it is useful to remember that only the top two quintiles are net contributors (in tax/benefit terms of course).

    I'm not clear how wanting to keep the rewards of one's efforts to oneself does not count as being selfish - it would seem to be the definition of the word.
    I mentioned family above very deliberately above but I knew that in any event some leftie would come up with the tired old 'me me me' accusation :wink:
    Am I a leftie? My point was that both your examples could be considered selfish; or neither. I don't think one's selfishness is related to one's political views.
    You're talking like one above and missing out the key word (family) which distorts what I really said. If it walks like a duck and quack like a duck... :wink:
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,242
    ben6899 wrote:
    I've worked hard and done well and I have rewards for me and my family. I also think it's the right and proper thing to push for a society that is as fair as possible for everyone. If that means I pay a bit more tax to provide welfare for those who might not be as fortunate as me, then that's how it is. Of course, it's eminently possible to do this AND still be smart with money to one's own benefit.

    I think saying left-leaning people are such because they want other people's money is a bit of a stretch, in all fairness!
    Ben, two points.

    1 Look at the graph in the link. Those on lower incomes are more likely to vote Labour. Those same people will be net beneficiaries of increased taxes. It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together and work out why these people want a left wing government.

    2. Ask most lefties who should pay more tax - the answer is very rarely themselves: it is usually 'the rich' or 'big business' - basically those who are doing better than them. Lefties need to step up to the plate and pay more themselves - lead by example :)

    Also as far as I can tell, most people who are doing well are already of the view that they pay enough tax.
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,242
    To sum up... :wink:

    funny-how-all-of-the-people-wanting-socialism-dont-contribute-35657445.png

    We maybe not all, but most...
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  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,245
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    I think it is useful to remember that only the top two quintiles are net contributors (in tax/benefit terms of course).

    I'm not clear how wanting to keep the rewards of one's efforts to oneself does not count as being selfish - it would seem to be the definition of the word.
    I mentioned family above very deliberately above but I knew that in any event some leftie would come up with the tired old 'me me me' accusation :wink:
    Am I a leftie? My point was that both your examples could be considered selfish; or neither. I don't think one's selfishness is related to one's political views.
    You're talking like one above and missing out the key word (family) which distorts what I really said. If it walks like a duck and quack like a duck... :wink:
    I'm ignoring it, yes. People are selfish. Some of them vote one way; some another. Spending money on your family is fine but it's hardly a sacrifice.
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  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,245

    1 Look at the graph in the link. Those on higher incomes are more likely to vote Conservative. Those same people will be net beneficiaries of reduced taxes. It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together and work out why these people want a right wing government.

    See how neatly that fits.
    Also as far as I can tell, most people who are doing well are already of the view that they pay enough tax.
    :lol:
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  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 8,424
    rjsterry wrote:
    I think it is useful to remember that only the top two quintiles are net contributors (in tax/benefit terms of course).

    I'm not clear how wanting to keep the rewards of one's efforts to oneself does not count as being selfish - it would seem to be the definition of the word.

    In the UK betweeen 2000-2017 only 200 people had volunteered to pay extra tax. That would suggest that human beings are inherently selfish.
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 8,424
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    ben6899 wrote:
    It's incredibly subjective, agreed. I would have to give it some thought, in all honesty.
    Go on then.

    In my very subjective view, the top marginal rate should not be more than 40% on income, on the basis that you should be able to keep a clear majority of what you earn.

    But if you chuck in stamp duty, VAT, Council Tax and duty on fags/booze/petrol that is going to climb to well over half.

    Not often we agree but that seems like more than enough to avoid being called selfish.

    Another test would be to never have paid in cash to evade VAT.
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 8,424
    ben6899 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    ben6899 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Possible, but there is a clear correlation between being less well off and voting Labour (and conversely, being financially successful and voting Conservative):
    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/to-explain-voting-intentions-income-is-more-important-for-the-conservatives-than-for-labour/

    It's not just possible, Stevo, it's an actual thing. Well off people are left- as well as right-leaning. It doesn't take a genius to understand why financially successful people tend to vote Conservative. It's just a shame the trend is such and that more people don't think about those not as fortunate as themselves.
    Of course it's possible to have left leaning well off people, but as the numbers show, there are less of the former than right leaning well off people.

    As for your statement about why more people don't think of others (implication being that they are tory voters/right leaning); of course if you have worked hard and done well then it's human nature to want to have those rewards for yourself and your family. Also the likely reason for a fair proportion of people being left leaning is that they want more of other people's money: to me, that sounds a bit selfish.

    I've worked hard and done well and I have rewards for me and my family. I also think it's the right and proper thing to push for a society that is as fair as possible for everyone. If that means I pay a bit more tax to provide welfare for those who might not be as fortunate as me, then that's how it is. Of course, it's eminently possible to do this AND still be smart with money to one's own benefit.

    I think saying left-leaning people are such because they want other people's money is a bit of a stretch, in all fairness!

    A bit more tax is very subjective - what is the max rate of income tax that you would be happy paying?

    That obviously depends on the services that are provided.

    Why, surely you are paying more for better services for others?
  • Jez monJez mon Posts: 3,809
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    ben6899 wrote:
    It's incredibly subjective, agreed. I would have to give it some thought, in all honesty.
    Go on then.

    In my very subjective view, the top marginal rate should not be more than 40% on income, on the basis that you should be able to keep a clear majority of what you earn.

    But if you chuck in stamp duty, VAT, Council Tax and duty on fags/booze/petrol that is going to climb to well over half.

    Not often we agree but that seems like more than enough to avoid being called selfish.

    Another test would be to never have paid in cash to evade VAT.

    Depends what you get for your contribution though surely? 40 could be anything from a bargain to a terrible deal, depending on the level of the state pension, the quality of the education system and the funtionality of the NHS
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,242
    rjsterry wrote:

    1 Look at the graph in the link. Those on higher incomes are more likely to vote Conservative. Those same people will be net beneficiaries of reduced taxes. It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together and work out why these people want a right wing government.

    See how neatly that fits.
    Also as far as I can tell, most people who are doing well are already of the view that they pay enough tax.
    :lol:
    Well of course.

    The difference being is that those on higher incomes tend to want to keep more of what they have earned. Whereas those on lower incomes tend to want to be given more of what other people have earned. One of those sounds more selfish than the other to me :wink:

    Now get working! I've already done my bit :)
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  • ben6899ben6899 Posts: 7,067
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    ben6899 wrote:
    I've worked hard and done well and I have rewards for me and my family. I also think it's the right and proper thing to push for a society that is as fair as possible for everyone. If that means I pay a bit more tax to provide welfare for those who might not be as fortunate as me, then that's how it is. Of course, it's eminently possible to do this AND still be smart with money to one's own benefit.

    I think saying left-leaning people are such because they want other people's money is a bit of a stretch, in all fairness!
    Ben, two points.

    1 Look at the graph in the link. Those on lower incomes are more likely to vote Labour. Those same people will be net beneficiaries of increased taxes. It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together and work out why these people want a left wing government.

    2. Ask most lefties who should pay more tax - the answer is very rarely themselves: it is usually 'the rich' or 'big business' - basically those who are doing better than them. Lefties need to step up to the plate and pay more themselves - lead by example :)

    Also as far as I can tell, most people who are doing well are already of the view that they pay enough tax.

    Maybe me and others I know doing well AND left leaning... maybe we're all anomalies. *shrug*
    Ben

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  • Jez monJez mon Posts: 3,809
    edited 7 January
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:

    1 Look at the graph in the link. Those on higher incomes are more likely to vote Conservative. Those same people will be net beneficiaries of reduced taxes. It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together and work out why these people want a right wing government.

    See how neatly that fits.
    Also as far as I can tell, most people who are doing well are already of the view that they pay enough tax.
    :lol:
    Well of course.

    The difference being is that those on higher incomes tend to want to keep more of what they have earned. Whereas those on lower incomes tend to want to be given more of what other people have earned. One of those sounds more selfish than the other to me :wink:

    Now get working! I've already done my bit :)

    I mean, you could argue that generally the people at the bottom of the pyramid are providing the service and earning the money, with the management frequently just sifting off more than their fair share.
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
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