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  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,296
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    What does she want to study, Stevo?

    (apologies for sidetracking the "who gives most to charity" duscussion)
    Veterinary medicine. Not the easiest to get into and only a handful of unis do it, but it's what she really wants to do and is working bloody hard to get there.

    Good luck to her. The hard work will continue until retirement (and maybe beyond) but it can be very rewarding (less so financially). Both parents were vets and my mother used to interview applicants for Bristol Vet School. Let me know if there are any questions I might be able to answer.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,391
    orraloon wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    What does she want to study, Stevo?

    (apologies for sidetracking the "who gives most to charity" duscussion)
    Veterinary medicine. Not the easiest to get into and only a handful of unis do it, but it's what she really wants to do and is working bloody hard to get there.
    Royal censored Vet in Embra, man. Handy fur gettin' close tae thae Trainspotters 'n' a', ken.
    RVC, Cambridge, Bristol, Liverpool, Nottingham, Surrey, Edinburgh & Glasgae are the only options. Pick 5....
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  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,296
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    @ Robert 88. Let's see what TM and Jez have to say shall we. We may find that they may not actually contribute that much...or at least somewhat less than those that they are criticising . I have a strange feeling that another episode of leftie mythbusters may be due :)

    I'd also be interested in what RJS contributes, just for completeness...

    See how long we have to wait :wink:

    And you accuse me of stalking...

    Without going into details not dissimilar to you. There's other stuff through work which is more financially significant but definitely not for a public forum, so you'll just have to take my word for it.
    I don't doubt that you do. But when you add up the financial and non-financial contributions then I'm sure you will find that many of those you criticise actually give back more than you do.

    Undoubtedly, with my clients I'm under no illusions about where I sit in the grand scheme of things. My point was that is not necessarily a positive or negative reflection on their character.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,391
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    What does she want to study, Stevo?

    (apologies for sidetracking the "who gives most to charity" duscussion)
    Veterinary medicine. Not the easiest to get into and only a handful of unis do it, but it's what she really wants to do and is working bloody hard to get there.

    Good luck to her. The hard work will continue until retirement (and maybe beyond) but it can be very rewarding (less so financially). Both parents were vets and my mother used to interview applicants for Bristol Vet School. Let me know if there are any questions I might be able to answer.
    Thanks RJS. Would be interested to get some more insider views on Bristol or other unis that do the courses. We've done a fair bit research already and have spoken to some in the profession but the more views the merrier. The main thing right now is to make the right choice - and get the grades, obviously. I'll PM you this week.
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    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,296
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    What does she want to study, Stevo?

    (apologies for sidetracking the "who gives most to charity" duscussion)
    Veterinary medicine. Not the easiest to get into and only a handful of unis do it, but it's what she really wants to do and is working bloody hard to get there.

    Good luck to her. The hard work will continue until retirement (and maybe beyond) but it can be very rewarding (less so financially). Both parents were vets and my mother used to interview applicants for Bristol Vet School. Let me know if there are any questions I might be able to answer.
    Thanks RJS. Would be interested to get some more insider views on Bristol or other unis that do the courses. We've done a fair bit research already and have spoken to some in the profession but the more views the merrier. The main thing right now is to make the right choice - and get the grades, obviously. I'll PM you this week.

    Both parents were at Bristol but that was 50 years ago. I'll ask what the current ranking of different schools is. I do particularly remember my mother commenting that with so much competition you needed something other than academic ability to distinguish you from all the other straight As. If you want to go into general practice you need to be good with people: explaining complex conditions to people with no medical knowledge who are often very upset. Perhaps unsurprisingly, a lot of academically very bright people are not very good at that.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 43,847 Lives Here
    Jez mon wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    The implication of this is that the better off don't do these non-monetary good things. I'm not sure where you get that from, other than leftiebollox anti-tory propaganda.

    Very few top flying professionals have an abundance of spare time, tbf.

    Stay at home mums have the time, inclination and often valuable skills to do voluntary work

    It’s fairly narrow to define value-add as anything you get paid for.

    After all, no one pays you to bring up your children and if you marry your cleaner and s/he continues to clean that labour doesn’t suddenly disappear.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 43,847 Lives Here
    Long term the challenge Tories have is that since the crash most broadly rightish politics has not managed to create an environment where anyone bar already well off can expect an increase in real earnings.

    If you are to be successful your policies on the economic side must be able to create an environment where the majority see improvement.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 43,847 Lives Here
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Funny that, I know how much I've contributed to society this year, as it's on my HMRC personal tax account :wink:

    You contribute with money then, which is fine - I'm the same. I wouldn't say that everyone contributes to society just with money.
    If you can find a way to pay the running costs of the NHS and the education system with honourable intentions and the like then please let me know. I haven't gone into the other non-monetary ways that I give something back as to be quite honest, the financial contribution is already plenty.

    I would have thought the obvious example in the NHS is the number of volunteers it relies on. Plus the charitable appeals for a new scanner or whatever. There's a lot of volunteering in education as well.

    I would like to hope that Stevo voluntarily takes his family private for both health and education.
    Why?

    In principle if you pay for something then you are entitled to use it. Not that I necessarily do but it's worth making the point.

    And how about you?

    I was supporting you by making a tongue in cheek reference to volunteers in health and education whilst making the valid point that the better off not only pay more in but voluntarily take less out.
    Ah got it thanks - may have been too subtle for some including me. And a good point. I generally do not burden the NHS medical or dental services and the family has private cover also. And will be paying my kids uni fees from next year rather than have her borrow from the state.

    What do you want, a lollipop?
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,391
    What do you want, a lollipop?
    No thanks; I can afford one myself :wink:

    As you've popped up, same question to you: how do you contribute to society or 'give something back'? (Hint: trying to be the social conscience of a cycling website might not get too many points here).
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    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 43,847 Lives Here
    Not much. I now live in a fairly active community so I do my bit there.

    I don’t rate myself as a huge contributor to the world, mind.

    Then again, I don’t attribute a massive amount of my own self worth by the number at the bottom of my paycheque.

    Plenty of people earn loads. I deal with them every day. Big deal.

    As I said, Tory voters who talk of envy think eryone is interested in their bank account. People are usually only ever interested in their own.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,391
    Not much. I now live in a fairly active community so I do my bit there.

    I don’t rate myself as a huge contributor to the world, mind.

    Then again, I don’t attribute a massive amount of my own self worth by the number at the bottom of my paycheque.

    Plenty of people earn loads. I deal with them every day. Big deal.

    As I said, Tory voters who talk of envy think eryone is interested in their bank account. People are usually only ever interested in their own.
    The debate here is not just about the financial contribution - which is of course relevant as things don't pay for themselves - but also the non-financial, which seems to be the subject of a bit of anti-tory mythology which is why I gave some examples to counter that from personal experience. Also as you can see I am also having a little pop at those who criticise people on this front, despite very likely contributing less themselves in whatever form.

    The point about earnings/money is more nuanced than some people make out. It could a combination of several things: security; not having to worry; a buffer against 'fear of failure'; prestige; a way of 'keeping the score'; giving your kids a good start, a way to enjoy the better things in life, freedom to do what you want etc. But if this 'bank account envy' isn't a big thing then why all the debate about unfairness in parts of the system, the need for redistribution of wealth and the occasional bit of attitude directed towards those who do have the stuff? There's enough evidence of these things here in Cake Stop.
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    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • TheBlueBeanTheBlueBean Posts: 8,266
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    What does she want to study, Stevo?

    (apologies for sidetracking the "who gives most to charity" duscussion)
    Veterinary medicine. Not the easiest to get into and only a handful of unis do it, but it's what she really wants to do and is working bloody hard to get there.

    Good luck to her. The hard work will continue until retirement (and maybe beyond) but it can be very rewarding (less so financially). Both parents were vets and my mother used to interview applicants for Bristol Vet School. Let me know if there are any questions I might be able to answer.
    Thanks RJS. Would be interested to get some more insider views on Bristol or other unis that do the courses. We've done a fair bit research already and have spoken to some in the profession but the more views the merrier. The main thing right now is to make the right choice - and get the grades, obviously. I'll PM you this week.

    It doesn't make any difference to which university, but she may wish to consider the differences between small animals which come with emotionally invested (and therefore difficult) owners and large animals which come with brutally commercial owners who have no emotional attachment to the animal at all.

    Or to put it another way, is she willing to kill a perfectly healthy large animal with no economic value? Is she happy to work with someone that insists there must something that can be done to save the precious hamster?

    Finally, if she wants to work exclusively with large animals, then it is likely to mean living in the middle of nowhere which doesn't suit everyone.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 43,847 Lives Here
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Not much. I now live in a fairly active community so I do my bit there.

    I don’t rate myself as a huge contributor to the world, mind.

    Then again, I don’t attribute a massive amount of my own self worth by the number at the bottom of my paycheque.

    Plenty of people earn loads. I deal with them every day. Big deal.

    As I said, Tory voters who talk of envy think eryone is interested in their bank account. People are usually only ever interested in their own.
    The debate here is not just about the financial contribution - which is of course relevant as things don't pay for themselves - but also the non-financial, which seems to be the subject of a bit of anti-tory mythology which is why I gave some examples to counter that from personal experience. Also as you can see I am also having a little pop at those who criticise people on this front, despite very likely contributing less themselves in whatever form.

    The point about earnings/money is more nuanced than some people make out. It could a combination of several things: security; not having to worry; a buffer against 'fear of failure'; prestige; a way of 'keeping the score'; giving your kids a good start, a way to enjoy the better things in life, freedom to do what you want etc. But if this 'bank account envy' isn't a big thing then why all the debate about unfairness in parts of the system, the need for redistribution of wealth and the occasional bit of attitude directed towards those who do have the stuff? There's enough evidence of these things here in Cake Stop.

    Because, as I said, people are preoccupied with their own bank account and most people see the world as zero sum.

    They look at what they do and how they work and think “sheesh, why can’t it be more?”

    Trust me mate, no one cares about what you earn other than you, and possibly the occasional colleague, but only as a projection of their anxieties about their own pay.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 43,847 Lives Here
    I could give you the going rates for all sorts of roles and it’d be [email protected] boring because **no one cares**.

    In the same way you don’t care what your bin man earns.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,391
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    What does she want to study, Stevo?

    (apologies for sidetracking the "who gives most to charity" duscussion)
    Veterinary medicine. Not the easiest to get into and only a handful of unis do it, but it's what she really wants to do and is working bloody hard to get there.

    Good luck to her. The hard work will continue until retirement (and maybe beyond) but it can be very rewarding (less so financially). Both parents were vets and my mother used to interview applicants for Bristol Vet School. Let me know if there are any questions I might be able to answer.
    Thanks RJS. Would be interested to get some more insider views on Bristol or other unis that do the courses. We've done a fair bit research already and have spoken to some in the profession but the more views the merrier. The main thing right now is to make the right choice - and get the grades, obviously. I'll PM you this week.

    It doesn't make any difference to which university, but she may wish to consider the differences between small animals which come with emotionally invested (and therefore difficult) owners and large animals which come with brutally commercial owners who have no emotional attachment to the animal at all.

    Or to put it another way, is she willing to kill a perfectly healthy large animal with no economic value? Is she happy to work with someone that insists there must something that can be done to save the precious hamster?

    Finally, if she wants to work exclusively with large animals, then it is likely to mean living in the middle of nowhere which doesn't suit everyone.
    Thanks BB - more food for thought. I think she will end up doing the small stuff as she is more of a town mouse at heart but she will have to cover all creatures great and small if she gets in, so she can decide based on her own experiences.
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  • TheBlueBeanTheBlueBean Posts: 8,266
    In Norway tax returns are public. Until they removed the anonymity of the enquirer, it seems that a lot of people were interested in what their neighbours earnt. I'm not sure they were any better off for knowing though.
  • Robert88Robert88 Posts: 2,722
    The problem for the Tory party is that they are the party of spending cuts. e.g. the police:
    Central government funding to commissioners has fallen by 30% in real
    terms since 2010-11. Commissioners received £7.7 billion of funding from central
    government in 2018-19, 30% less than they received in 2010-11 in real terms.
    Commissioners also received £3.6 billion from council tax contributions in 2018-19.
    In total, commissioners received 19% less funding from central and local sources
    in 2018-19 than they received in 2010-11, in real terms. In 2018-19, the Department
    allowed commissioners to raise council tax contributions so that their total funding
    was, as a minimum, the same as it was in 2017-18 in real terms. This increased funding
    by £280 million. Commissioners allocate the majority of their funding to police forces

    local government:
    By 2020, local authorities will have faced a reduction to core funding from the Government of nearly £16 billion over the preceding decade. That means that councils will have lost 60p out of every £1 the Government had provided to spend on local services in the last 8 years. 168 councils will receive no revenue support grant at all next year.

    PM May has pledged to 'honour' the Brexit bus promise of £350m/week with a five year plan "The NHS will receive increased funding of £20.5 billion per year by the end of 5 years.".

    You wouldn't accept that as a contract wording but never mind.. The increase is 3.4% much of which will be swallowed by inflation, moreover the means of funding the 'promise' is nebulous:
    The government is able to invest in the NHS because it has taken difficult but necessary decisions to get the nation’s finances back in order and because it is confident it will secure a good Brexit deal that supports our economy.

    The Prime Minister explained that some of the extra funding will come from the money the government will no longer spend on the annual membership subscription to the European Union after Britain has left and as well as that taxpayers will also need to contribute a bit more in a fair and balanced way.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 7,384
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    The debate here is not just about the financial contribution - which is of course relevant as things don't pay for themselves - but also the non-financial, which seems to be the subject of a bit of anti-tory mythology which is why I gave some examples to counter that from personal experience.

    This is interesting, as I don't think that the Conservatives of John Major were just the party of the rich, whereas I equally don't think the Labour of Tony Blair neglected the fact that the services do need to be paid for, and that high earners pay more tax. Today, partly because Labour are now the party of class war, and partly because the Conservatives have been through a period of being run by old Etonians, and because the Conservatives are hapless, they look like the party of the selfish rich. Not easy to change.
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Also as you can see I am also having a little pop at those who criticise people on this front, despite very likely contributing less themselves in whatever form.

    This, however, is not interesting.
    and then the next thing you know
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 7,071
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    But if this 'bank account envy' isn't a big thing then why all the debate about unfairness in parts of the system, the need for redistribution of wealth and the occasional bit of attitude directed towards those who do have the stuff? There's enough evidence of these things here in Cake Stop.

    I'll pick you up on one point, Stevo. Most people who feel the unfairness in the system are not envious of peoples bank accounts; they're usually clawing desperately to enjoy maybe a small fraction of the comforts that those more fortunate take for granted.
    Ben

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  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,296
    It's stating the obvious to say that wealthier people contribute more (in absolute terms) in taxes than those on lower incomes. But paying what you are legally obliged to - even if that is a really big number - does not make you a philanthropist; it is the minimum expected of citizens.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • Shirley BassoShirley Basso Posts: 3,132
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    What does she want to study, Stevo?

    (apologies for sidetracking the "who gives most to charity" duscussion)
    Veterinary medicine. Not the easiest to get into and only a handful of unis do it, but it's what she really wants to do and is working bloody hard to get there.

    Good luck to her. The hard work will continue until retirement (and maybe beyond) but it can be very rewarding (less so financially). Both parents were vets and my mother used to interview applicants for Bristol Vet School. Let me know if there are any questions I might be able to answer.
    Thanks RJS. Would be interested to get some more insider views on Bristol or other unis that do the courses. We've done a fair bit research already and have spoken to some in the profession but the more views the merrier. The main thing right now is to make the right choice - and get the grades, obviously. I'll PM you this week.

    Both parents were at Bristol but that was 50 years ago. I'll ask what the current ranking of different schools is. I do particularly remember my mother commenting that with so much competition you needed something other than academic ability to distinguish you from all the other straight As. If you want to go into general practice you need to be good with people: explaining complex conditions to people with no medical knowledge who are often very upset. Perhaps unsurprisingly, a lot of academically very bright people are not very good at that.

    PM'd you Stevo on the above.
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 8,453
    Jez mon wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    The implication of this is that the better off don't do these non-monetary good things. I'm not sure where you get that from, other than leftiebollox anti-tory propaganda.

    Very few top flying professionals have an abundance of spare time, tbf.

    Stay at home mums have the time, inclination and often valuable skills to do voluntary work

    It’s fairly narrow to define value-add as anything you get paid for.

    After all, no one pays you to bring up your children and if you marry your cleaner and s/he continues to clean that labour doesn’t suddenly disappear.

    have you responded to the wrong post?
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 8,453
    Long term the challenge Tories have is that since the crash most broadly rightish politics has not managed to create an environment where anyone bar already well off can expect an increase in real earnings.

    If you are to be successful your policies on the economic side must be able to create an environment where the majority see improvement.

    what if the rise in real incomes was largely a myth driven by high inflation and certain high profile products and services being cheaper?

    if true then they only need give people the perception that things are getting better
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 43,847 Lives Here
    Whaddya mean ?
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,296
    I think he is suggesting that the pre-2008 boom wasn't really as great as everyone thought. I'm unconvinced.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 8,453
    rjsterry wrote:
    I think he is suggesting that the pre-2008 boom wasn't really as great as everyone thought. I'm unconvinced.

    just a thought... there used to be far more of a culture of sons following in their father's footsteps. Did the 3rd generation Smith working on the Dagenham production line really earn more than his grandfather or had his wages raced up in a time of high inflation whilst foreign holidays (for instance) had become disproportionately cheaper? Over the same period his wife is more likely to be working full time so boosting household income. Now throw in increased social mobility.

    I am not wedded to this theory - more kicking it around as I don't get why people expect to be better off than their parents and I wonder whether this has always been the case or a bit of a myth.
  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,421
    People should be able to expect to be 'better off' than their parents (assuming of course that they are willing to 'work' at a reasonable approximation of how hard their parents did), much as their parents should have been better off than their grandparents.

    There are numerous reasons for this, firstly the general trend for increased productivity and availability of the fruits of people labour.

    Which is to say, a worker in a modern car plant is producing more/better cars per hour than were being produced by their predecessors a generation ago.

    And the cars produced are more efficient, so can go further on less petrol, are faster, carry more luggage, whatever.

    Then there is the accumulated wealth of a country/generations. Once a town has sewers, roads, telephones etc it take less to maintain that provision than it did in the first place to install it - so later generations benefit from things that were paid for before they came into the picture.

    Similarly within our own families, items are accumulated that outlive their purchasers - furniture, houses, jewellery, books, whatever - at some point good money was paid for these items, and the younger generations can benefit from them for a fraction of their original cost (and more often free)


    In the absence of a war or natural disaster or other major calamity to destroy this wealth, it seems reasonable to expect that people will be better off than their parents were.


    When they aren't, that to me suggests a broken system in one way or another. The most obvious way that the current system is broken is the ability of the rich to monopolise land and property ownership - locking out the young/poor from such stability, and allowing them to extract usurious rent from these people.


    I've not owned a house for very long, but the amount of unearned 'wealth' it has already generated for us, looking at local sale prices, is mind boggling. And it doesn't benefit us much given that we still need somewhere to live.... someone rich enough to have bought a place next to us as an 'investment' would be doing very well, and wouldn't have had to work hard by any definition.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,391
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    The debate here is not just about the financial contribution - which is of course relevant as things don't pay for themselves - but also the non-financial, which seems to be the subject of a bit of anti-tory mythology which is why I gave some examples to counter that from personal experience.

    This is interesting, as I don't think that the Conservatives of John Major were just the party of the rich, whereas I equally don't think the Labour of Tony Blair neglected the fact that the services do need to be paid for, and that high earners pay more tax. Today, partly because Labour are now the party of class war, and partly because the Conservatives have been through a period of being run by old Etonians, and because the Conservatives are hapless, they look like the party of the selfish rich. Not easy to change.
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    Also as you can see I am also having a little pop at those who criticise people on this front, despite very likely contributing less themselves in whatever form.

    This, however, is not interesting.
    Funny how this has become 'not interesting' for you after I showed how you may well be contributing less (either financially or otherwise) than that group of people you were so interested in criticising earlier in the thread. Wonder why that is? :wink:
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,391
    PM'd you Stevo on the above.
    Thanks SB, you have PM back.
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 36,391
    Ben6899 wrote:
    Stevo 666 wrote:
    But if this 'bank account envy' isn't a big thing then why all the debate about unfairness in parts of the system, the need for redistribution of wealth and the occasional bit of attitude directed towards those who do have the stuff? There's enough evidence of these things here in Cake Stop.

    I'll pick you up on one point, Stevo. Most people who feel the unfairness in the system are not envious of peoples bank accounts; they're usually clawing desperately to enjoy maybe a small fraction of the comforts that those more fortunate take for granted.
    Given the bile I see and here directed at 'the rich' from quite a few corners - especially New Old Labour/Momentum etc - I do find that hard to believe sometimes.
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