LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!
Comments
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The thread is interesting - the anecdote on the accidental labour focus group constantly banging on about immigration especially.kingstongraham said:
He may have some valid points, but what exactly does he think he's won, and for what purpose?rick_chasey said:
Is he just waking up and realising he got used?
He is right that there is no centre and that most voters are more extreme than both parties when discussing narrower issues (like tax, immigration etc).
Tbh when it comes to elections he knows his onions so I’ll listen to what he says. You know there’s an angle so you can filter what he says through that0 -
I think there definitely is a centre, but it's silent and not represented.1
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I think those who are not represented are those who don't sit at the same position on the culture war and economic axes.elbowloh said:I think there definitely is a centre, but it's silent and not represented.
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If we take a single example of transport. I lIve in an area that has little to no public transport yet I get hammered for having a car. Labour have no answer to this as their base is in cities where my vehicle is seen as a luxury. If labour got elected they would continue to hammer private vehicle owners through their city focussed eyes as they see it as a luxury not a necessity. On this basis a lot of people choose the Tory's as whilst they may have similar views they tend to be more accommodating of the countryside where this is an issue.rick_chasey said:
lol. Do you honestly believe that? "Dictate"?Dorset_Boy said:
It's not arrogant at all. It tends to be the metro libs trying to tell everyone else how to lead their lives and dictate what is right and wrong.rick_chasey said:
This stuff is so arrogant.Dorset_Boy said:
The 'liberal metro' view point clearly is massively out of touch outside the major cities.
It's a difference of politics and priorities.
By the logic you say I could quite easily say " "the parochial regional" view point is massively out of touch in every major UK city". That is as stupid as your statement.
It's not some inverse snobbery "I am in touch and you're not" point.
People have different political persuasions and priorities and they tend to group together where they live.
I guess if you have your phantom enemy in your mind it's easier to justify the rest.
This is one small example of where Labour don't appeal to me and hence won't get my vote. The could always change the system of taxation to reflect this but instead the moan about air pollution in cities when it has absolutely nothing to do with me.
So you ask why did they get hammered and it is tens of these reasons added up together and a lack of vision that holds them back. When Kier stands their as a well educated lawyer do you really think he appeals to the people of Hartlepool anymore than Boris on a personal level.0 -
How many of the public facing financial ruin were happy to let the bodies pile high. Boris was probably more in line with what a fair few thought but would not say than you think.elbowloh said:
It wasn't Starmer who was willing to let the bodies pile high.Stevo_666 said:
I'm sure Keir Starmer and the Isliington Labour set care deeply about Hartlepool. He even visited and look how much that convinced the voters there.elbowloh said:
You've got liberal metro libs Vs populist Eton elites and the masses seem to be buying the snake oil from the Eton boys.Dorset_Boy said:
It's not arrogant at all. It tends to be the metro libs trying to tell everyone else how to lead their lives and dictate what is right and wrong.rick_chasey said:
This stuff is so arrogant.Dorset_Boy said:
The 'liberal metro' view point clearly is massively out of touch outside the major cities.
It's a difference of politics and priorities.
By the logic you say I could quite easily say " "the parochial regional" view point is massively out of touch in every major UK city". That is as stupid as your statement.
It's not some inverse snobbery "I am in touch and you're not" point.
People have different political persuasions and priorities and they tend to group together where they live.
I'm saying the liberal metro view point doesn't resonate outside the cities and therefore is out of touch with those areas.
It clearly resonates with city dwellers.
It's not saying one is right or one is wrong, once again you try to play the man and not the ball. Read what is wrtten, and digest it before adding salt to the chip!
Neither of them represent the working class, but I suspect only one gives a shoite about them rather than just their votes.0 -
How do you get hammered?john80 said:
If we take a single example of transport. I lIve in an area that has little to no public transport yet I get hammered for having a car. Labour have no answer to this as their base is in cities where my vehicle is seen as a luxury. If labour got elected they would continue to hammer private vehicle owners through their city focussed eyes as they see it as a luxury not a necessity. On this basis a lot of people choose the Tory's as whilst they may have similar views they tend to be more accommodating of the countryside where this is an issue.rick_chasey said:
lol. Do you honestly believe that? "Dictate"?Dorset_Boy said:
It's not arrogant at all. It tends to be the metro libs trying to tell everyone else how to lead their lives and dictate what is right and wrong.rick_chasey said:
This stuff is so arrogant.Dorset_Boy said:
The 'liberal metro' view point clearly is massively out of touch outside the major cities.
It's a difference of politics and priorities.
By the logic you say I could quite easily say " "the parochial regional" view point is massively out of touch in every major UK city". That is as stupid as your statement.
It's not some inverse snobbery "I am in touch and you're not" point.
People have different political persuasions and priorities and they tend to group together where they live.
I guess if you have your phantom enemy in your mind it's easier to justify the rest.
This is one small example of where Labour don't appeal to me and hence won't get my vote. The could always change the system of taxation to reflect this but instead the moan about air pollution in cities when it has absolutely nothing to do with me.
So you ask why did they get hammered and it is tens of these reasons added up together and a lack of vision that holds them back. When Kier stands their as a well educated lawyer do you really think he appeals to the people of Hartlepool anymore than Boris on a personal level.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
Hate to say it, but once the outbreak was upon us, I think a lot of people, however self-serving it may appear, did not like the idea of being locked down and facing financial ruin over the lives of a few eldery people.john80 said:
How many of the public facing financial ruin were happy to let the bodies pile high. Boris was probably more in line with what a fair few thought but would not say than you think.elbowloh said:
It wasn't Starmer who was willing to let the bodies pile high.Stevo_666 said:
I'm sure Keir Starmer and the Isliington Labour set care deeply about Hartlepool. He even visited and look how much that convinced the voters there.elbowloh said:
You've got liberal metro libs Vs populist Eton elites and the masses seem to be buying the snake oil from the Eton boys.Dorset_Boy said:
It's not arrogant at all. It tends to be the metro libs trying to tell everyone else how to lead their lives and dictate what is right and wrong.rick_chasey said:
This stuff is so arrogant.Dorset_Boy said:
The 'liberal metro' view point clearly is massively out of touch outside the major cities.
It's a difference of politics and priorities.
By the logic you say I could quite easily say " "the parochial regional" view point is massively out of touch in every major UK city". That is as stupid as your statement.
It's not some inverse snobbery "I am in touch and you're not" point.
People have different political persuasions and priorities and they tend to group together where they live.
I'm saying the liberal metro view point doesn't resonate outside the cities and therefore is out of touch with those areas.
It clearly resonates with city dwellers.
It's not saying one is right or one is wrong, once again you try to play the man and not the ball. Read what is wrtten, and digest it before adding salt to the chip!
Neither of them represent the working class, but I suspect only one gives a shoite about them rather than just their votes.
i.e - i agree with john80 here.
That said, it was Boris's fault that lockdown happened too late, yet for some reason Labour are taking the blame as if they could have done something about it (they couldn't FORCE the gov't to lock down, only vote against it starting or being eased).0 -
They're like Teflon. The motorist is perceived that he is getting hammered - let's teach Labour a lesson for it.0
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If you've been getting hammered over the last decade there's only one party to blame and that's the Tories.0
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I pay for public transport through general taxation I can't use. I then get taxed higher because I have a fuel efficient diesel that also emits particulate into the countryside with nobody there to breath it. All because city dwellers have a problem with their fellow city dwellers behaviour. Where is my rebate for living in a rural with no services😃pangolin said:
How do you get hammered?john80 said:
If we take a single example of transport. I lIve in an area that has little to no public transport yet I get hammered for having a car. Labour have no answer to this as their base is in cities where my vehicle is seen as a luxury. If labour got elected they would continue to hammer private vehicle owners through their city focussed eyes as they see it as a luxury not a necessity. On this basis a lot of people choose the Tory's as whilst they may have similar views they tend to be more accommodating of the countryside where this is an issue.rick_chasey said:
lol. Do you honestly believe that? "Dictate"?Dorset_Boy said:
It's not arrogant at all. It tends to be the metro libs trying to tell everyone else how to lead their lives and dictate what is right and wrong.rick_chasey said:
This stuff is so arrogant.Dorset_Boy said:
The 'liberal metro' view point clearly is massively out of touch outside the major cities.
It's a difference of politics and priorities.
By the logic you say I could quite easily say " "the parochial regional" view point is massively out of touch in every major UK city". That is as stupid as your statement.
It's not some inverse snobbery "I am in touch and you're not" point.
People have different political persuasions and priorities and they tend to group together where they live.
I guess if you have your phantom enemy in your mind it's easier to justify the rest.
This is one small example of where Labour don't appeal to me and hence won't get my vote. The could always change the system of taxation to reflect this but instead the moan about air pollution in cities when it has absolutely nothing to do with me.
So you ask why did they get hammered and it is tens of these reasons added up together and a lack of vision that holds them back. When Kier stands their as a well educated lawyer do you really think he appeals to the people of Hartlepool anymore than Boris on a personal level.0 -
You're not voting Labour because you're 'getting hammered' for having a car but instead vote Conservative, the party with the hammer and who've held the hammer for 11 yearsjohn80 said:
If we take a single example of transport. I lIve in an area that has little to no public transport yet I get hammered for having a car. Labour have no answer to this as their base is in cities where my vehicle is seen as a luxury. If labour got elected they would continue to hammer private vehicle owners through their city focussed eyes as they see it as a luxury not a necessity. On this basis a lot of people choose the Tory's as whilst they may have similar views they tend to be more accommodating of the countryside where this is an issue.rick_chasey said:
lol. Do you honestly believe that? "Dictate"?Dorset_Boy said:
It's not arrogant at all. It tends to be the metro libs trying to tell everyone else how to lead their lives and dictate what is right and wrong.rick_chasey said:
This stuff is so arrogant.Dorset_Boy said:
The 'liberal metro' view point clearly is massively out of touch outside the major cities.
It's a difference of politics and priorities.
By the logic you say I could quite easily say " "the parochial regional" view point is massively out of touch in every major UK city". That is as stupid as your statement.
It's not some inverse snobbery "I am in touch and you're not" point.
People have different political persuasions and priorities and they tend to group together where they live.
I guess if you have your phantom enemy in your mind it's easier to justify the rest.
This is one small example of where Labour don't appeal to me and hence won't get my vote. The could always change the system of taxation to reflect this but instead the moan about air pollution in cities when it has absolutely nothing to do with me.
So you ask why did they get hammered and it is tens of these reasons added up together and a lack of vision that holds them back. When Kier stands their as a well educated lawyer do you really think he appeals to the people of Hartlepool anymore than Boris on a personal level.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!2 -
So they're all a bunch of barstewards.john80 said:
How many of the public facing financial ruin were happy to let the bodies pile high. Boris was probably more in line with what a fair few thought but would not say than you think.elbowloh said:
It wasn't Starmer who was willing to let the bodies pile high.Stevo_666 said:
I'm sure Keir Starmer and the Isliington Labour set care deeply about Hartlepool. He even visited and look how much that convinced the voters there.elbowloh said:
You've got liberal metro libs Vs populist Eton elites and the masses seem to be buying the snake oil from the Eton boys.Dorset_Boy said:
It's not arrogant at all. It tends to be the metro libs trying to tell everyone else how to lead their lives and dictate what is right and wrong.rick_chasey said:
This stuff is so arrogant.Dorset_Boy said:
The 'liberal metro' view point clearly is massively out of touch outside the major cities.
It's a difference of politics and priorities.
By the logic you say I could quite easily say " "the parochial regional" view point is massively out of touch in every major UK city". That is as stupid as your statement.
It's not some inverse snobbery "I am in touch and you're not" point.
People have different political persuasions and priorities and they tend to group together where they live.
I'm saying the liberal metro view point doesn't resonate outside the cities and therefore is out of touch with those areas.
It clearly resonates with city dwellers.
It's not saying one is right or one is wrong, once again you try to play the man and not the ball. Read what is wrtten, and digest it before adding salt to the chip!
Neither of them represent the working class, but I suspect only one gives a shoite about them rather than just their votes.
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There isn’t a rebate. The services you do have cost considerably more per capita to provide.john80 said:
I pay for public transport through general taxation I can't use. I then get taxed higher because I have a fuel efficient diesel that also emits particulate into the countryside with nobody there to breath it. All because city dwellers have a problem with their fellow city dwellers behaviour. Where is my rebate for living in a rural with no services😃pangolin said:
How do you get hammered?john80 said:
If we take a single example of transport. I lIve in an area that has little to no public transport yet I get hammered for having a car. Labour have no answer to this as their base is in cities where my vehicle is seen as a luxury. If labour got elected they would continue to hammer private vehicle owners through their city focussed eyes as they see it as a luxury not a necessity. On this basis a lot of people choose the Tory's as whilst they may have similar views they tend to be more accommodating of the countryside where this is an issue.rick_chasey said:
lol. Do you honestly believe that? "Dictate"?Dorset_Boy said:
It's not arrogant at all. It tends to be the metro libs trying to tell everyone else how to lead their lives and dictate what is right and wrong.rick_chasey said:
This stuff is so arrogant.Dorset_Boy said:
The 'liberal metro' view point clearly is massively out of touch outside the major cities.
It's a difference of politics and priorities.
By the logic you say I could quite easily say " "the parochial regional" view point is massively out of touch in every major UK city". That is as stupid as your statement.
It's not some inverse snobbery "I am in touch and you're not" point.
People have different political persuasions and priorities and they tend to group together where they live.
I guess if you have your phantom enemy in your mind it's easier to justify the rest.
This is one small example of where Labour don't appeal to me and hence won't get my vote. The could always change the system of taxation to reflect this but instead the moan about air pollution in cities when it has absolutely nothing to do with me.
So you ask why did they get hammered and it is tens of these reasons added up together and a lack of vision that holds them back. When Kier stands their as a well educated lawyer do you really think he appeals to the people of Hartlepool anymore than Boris on a personal level.
You should move to the city where there is a better ROI.0 -
Isn't the rebate to the rural motorist paid in roads?1
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Leaving aside your disastrous understanding of how pollution works, you are describing the status quo when your party has been in power for a decade. But have somehow convinced yourself the "metro libs" are to blame.john80 said:
I pay for public transport through general taxation I can't use. I then get taxed higher because I have a fuel efficient diesel that also emits particulate into the countryside with nobody there to breath it. All because city dwellers have a problem with their fellow city dwellers behaviour. Where is my rebate for living in a rural with no services😃pangolin said:
How do you get hammered?john80 said:
If we take a single example of transport. I lIve in an area that has little to no public transport yet I get hammered for having a car. Labour have no answer to this as their base is in cities where my vehicle is seen as a luxury. If labour got elected they would continue to hammer private vehicle owners through their city focussed eyes as they see it as a luxury not a necessity. On this basis a lot of people choose the Tory's as whilst they may have similar views they tend to be more accommodating of the countryside where this is an issue.rick_chasey said:
lol. Do you honestly believe that? "Dictate"?Dorset_Boy said:
It's not arrogant at all. It tends to be the metro libs trying to tell everyone else how to lead their lives and dictate what is right and wrong.rick_chasey said:
This stuff is so arrogant.Dorset_Boy said:
The 'liberal metro' view point clearly is massively out of touch outside the major cities.
It's a difference of politics and priorities.
By the logic you say I could quite easily say " "the parochial regional" view point is massively out of touch in every major UK city". That is as stupid as your statement.
It's not some inverse snobbery "I am in touch and you're not" point.
People have different political persuasions and priorities and they tend to group together where they live.
I guess if you have your phantom enemy in your mind it's easier to justify the rest.
This is one small example of where Labour don't appeal to me and hence won't get my vote. The could always change the system of taxation to reflect this but instead the moan about air pollution in cities when it has absolutely nothing to do with me.
So you ask why did they get hammered and it is tens of these reasons added up together and a lack of vision that holds them back. When Kier stands their as a well educated lawyer do you really think he appeals to the people of Hartlepool anymore than Boris on a personal level.
I agree, it is an astounding feat the conservatives have achieved in convincing people to buy into this kind of thinking.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
No, motorists pay for roads through road tax. As a cyclist surely you have been made aware of this "fact" on many occasions?kingstongraham said:Isn't the rebate to the rural motorist paid in roads?
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Maybe we need a national rural party made up of a load of hicks who can look after the interests of those of us who live in more rural locations.0
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That's no different from me whingeing about having to pay for the NHS when I hardly ever use it... Until I got knocked off my bike, smashed my teeth and had to get my finger screwed back together.john80 said:
I pay for public transport through general taxation I can't use. I then get taxed higher because I have a fuel efficient diesel that also emits particulate into the countryside with nobody there to breath it. All because city dwellers have a problem with their fellow city dwellers behaviour. Where is my rebate for living in a rural with no services😃pangolin said:
How do you get hammered?john80 said:
If we take a single example of transport. I lIve in an area that has little to no public transport yet I get hammered for having a car. Labour have no answer to this as their base is in cities where my vehicle is seen as a luxury. If labour got elected they would continue to hammer private vehicle owners through their city focussed eyes as they see it as a luxury not a necessity. On this basis a lot of people choose the Tory's as whilst they may have similar views they tend to be more accommodating of the countryside where this is an issue.rick_chasey said:
lol. Do you honestly believe that? "Dictate"?Dorset_Boy said:
It's not arrogant at all. It tends to be the metro libs trying to tell everyone else how to lead their lives and dictate what is right and wrong.rick_chasey said:
This stuff is so arrogant.Dorset_Boy said:
The 'liberal metro' view point clearly is massively out of touch outside the major cities.
It's a difference of politics and priorities.
By the logic you say I could quite easily say " "the parochial regional" view point is massively out of touch in every major UK city". That is as stupid as your statement.
It's not some inverse snobbery "I am in touch and you're not" point.
People have different political persuasions and priorities and they tend to group together where they live.
I guess if you have your phantom enemy in your mind it's easier to justify the rest.
This is one small example of where Labour don't appeal to me and hence won't get my vote. The could always change the system of taxation to reflect this but instead the moan about air pollution in cities when it has absolutely nothing to do with me.
So you ask why did they get hammered and it is tens of these reasons added up together and a lack of vision that holds them back. When Kier stands their as a well educated lawyer do you really think he appeals to the people of Hartlepool anymore than Boris on a personal level.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I pay shitloads to educate other people's kids.0
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You're lucky - as they'll be paying for your pension
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Local air for local people - nothing for you here1
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To repay your debt for the education you received.kingstongraham said:I pay shitloads to educate other people's kids.
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I don’t see the result as anything more than Brexit related.
Yes, there are other sub-plots and dynamics but this is a region that wanted Brexit and isn’t yet ready to vote for a party that merely accepts Brexit has happened.
As at the last election, Brexit remains the dividing line for the nation in many regards.
Blame for all ills has been successfully laid at the door of Europe and Labour is still seen as disputing that idea.0 -
As a childless man, who went to private school, doesn't use public transport and has private healthcare insurance. I beleive I shouldn't pay any tax.TheBigBean said:
To repay your debt for the education you received.kingstongraham said:I pay shitloads to educate other people's kids.
I obviously do not actually think the above.0 -
If that was the calculation, I've reckon I've paid that off a long time ago. How much does a university course cost?TheBigBean said:
To repay your debt for the education you received.kingstongraham said:I pay shitloads to educate other people's kids.
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I know people (chartered accountants who are partners of national firms) who think that.Jezyboy said:
As a childless man, who went to private school, doesn't use public transport and has private healthcare insurance. I beleive I shouldn't pay any tax.TheBigBean said:
To repay your debt for the education you received.kingstongraham said:I pay shitloads to educate other people's kids.
I obviously do not actually think the above.0 -
🤨shirley_basso said:
I know people (chartered accountants who are partners of national firms) who think that.Jezyboy said:
As a childless man, who went to private school, doesn't use public transport and has private healthcare insurance. I beleive I shouldn't pay any tax.TheBigBean said:
To repay your debt for the education you received.kingstongraham said:I pay shitloads to educate other people's kids.
I obviously do not actually think the above.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
In that ten years have my costs got worse? I don't think they have. I will take my personal share of blame for global warming but I am afraid I can't accept any responsibility for the quality of air in central London.pangolin said:
Leaving aside your disastrous understanding of how pollution works, you are describing the status quo when your party has been in power for a decade. But have somehow convinced yourself the "metro libs" are to blame.john80 said:
I pay for public transport through general taxation I can't use. I then get taxed higher because I have a fuel efficient diesel that also emits particulate into the countryside with nobody there to breath it. All because city dwellers have a problem with their fellow city dwellers behaviour. Where is my rebate for living in a rural with no services😃pangolin said:
How do you get hammered?john80 said:
If we take a single example of transport. I lIve in an area that has little to no public transport yet I get hammered for having a car. Labour have no answer to this as their base is in cities where my vehicle is seen as a luxury. If labour got elected they would continue to hammer private vehicle owners through their city focussed eyes as they see it as a luxury not a necessity. On this basis a lot of people choose the Tory's as whilst they may have similar views they tend to be more accommodating of the countryside where this is an issue.rick_chasey said:
lol. Do you honestly believe that? "Dictate"?Dorset_Boy said:
It's not arrogant at all. It tends to be the metro libs trying to tell everyone else how to lead their lives and dictate what is right and wrong.rick_chasey said:
This stuff is so arrogant.Dorset_Boy said:
The 'liberal metro' view point clearly is massively out of touch outside the major cities.
It's a difference of politics and priorities.
By the logic you say I could quite easily say " "the parochial regional" view point is massively out of touch in every major UK city". That is as stupid as your statement.
It's not some inverse snobbery "I am in touch and you're not" point.
People have different political persuasions and priorities and they tend to group together where they live.
I guess if you have your phantom enemy in your mind it's easier to justify the rest.
This is one small example of where Labour don't appeal to me and hence won't get my vote. The could always change the system of taxation to reflect this but instead the moan about air pollution in cities when it has absolutely nothing to do with me.
So you ask why did they get hammered and it is tens of these reasons added up together and a lack of vision that holds them back. When Kier stands their as a well educated lawyer do you really think he appeals to the people of Hartlepool anymore than Boris on a personal level.
I agree, it is an astounding feat the conservatives have achieved in convincing people to buy into this kind of thinking.0 -
Just out of interest then how are you being penalised for having a car and how is it Labours fault? I remember paying £25 tax a year on a diesel under Labour.john80 said:
In that ten years have my costs got worse? I don't think they have. I will take my personal share of blame for global warming but I am afraid I can't accept any responsibility for the quality of air in central London.pangolin said:
Leaving aside your disastrous understanding of how pollution works, you are describing the status quo when your party has been in power for a decade. But have somehow convinced yourself the "metro libs" are to blame.john80 said:
I pay for public transport through general taxation I can't use. I then get taxed higher because I have a fuel efficient diesel that also emits particulate into the countryside with nobody there to breath it. All because city dwellers have a problem with their fellow city dwellers behaviour. Where is my rebate for living in a rural with no services😃pangolin said:
How do you get hammered?john80 said:
If we take a single example of transport. I lIve in an area that has little to no public transport yet I get hammered for having a car. Labour have no answer to this as their base is in cities where my vehicle is seen as a luxury. If labour got elected they would continue to hammer private vehicle owners through their city focussed eyes as they see it as a luxury not a necessity. On this basis a lot of people choose the Tory's as whilst they may have similar views they tend to be more accommodating of the countryside where this is an issue.rick_chasey said:
lol. Do you honestly believe that? "Dictate"?Dorset_Boy said:
It's not arrogant at all. It tends to be the metro libs trying to tell everyone else how to lead their lives and dictate what is right and wrong.rick_chasey said:
This stuff is so arrogant.Dorset_Boy said:
The 'liberal metro' view point clearly is massively out of touch outside the major cities.
It's a difference of politics and priorities.
By the logic you say I could quite easily say " "the parochial regional" view point is massively out of touch in every major UK city". That is as stupid as your statement.
It's not some inverse snobbery "I am in touch and you're not" point.
People have different political persuasions and priorities and they tend to group together where they live.
I guess if you have your phantom enemy in your mind it's easier to justify the rest.
This is one small example of where Labour don't appeal to me and hence won't get my vote. The could always change the system of taxation to reflect this but instead the moan about air pollution in cities when it has absolutely nothing to do with me.
So you ask why did they get hammered and it is tens of these reasons added up together and a lack of vision that holds them back. When Kier stands their as a well educated lawyer do you really think he appeals to the people of Hartlepool anymore than Boris on a personal level.
I agree, it is an astounding feat the conservatives have achieved in convincing people to buy into this kind of thinking.0
