LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!

kingstongraham

rick_chasey said:

We all spout off the virtues of multi-culturalism, but without the language you don't get multi-culturalism, you just get pockets of different cultures that don't mix properly.

You literally need a common language.

Multi culturalism is literally what you are describing - pockets of differentcultures that don't mix properly. That is what Braverman is saying has failed.

It would help if people understood this.

rick_chasey

First.Aspect said:

Please don't try to be the poster child for social awareness.

I stand by my assessment that the line of reasoning that ends up with a citizenship test is a dead end.

So you're just dismissing it because you haven't seen it yourself? isn't that what you're accusing me of?

And anyway, how do you navigate the world of bureaucracy that's needed to exist in the country without the language? It's not beyond most people to learn, and that is a much more effective way to encourage them to be additive parts of society than it is to just stump up a translation service which will never be sufficient and will be both costly and cause resentment.

I am extremely pro immigration, as far as I am concerned, anyone who wants to come to work or doesn't instantly need to draw on social security can come, or has legitimate asylum needs as per the UN guidance, is all good.

As long as they learn the language. It's not hard. Literally.

I wouldn't dream of moving somewhere without learning the language. Madness. And people who don't cause resentment amongst the locals. Let's do some basic things to prevent that resentment.

First.Aspect

kingstongraham said:

rick_chasey said:

We all spout off the virtues of multi-culturalism, but without the language you don't get multi-culturalism, you just get pockets of different cultures that don't mix properly.

You literally need a common language.

Multi culturalism is literally what you are describing - pockets of differentcultures that don't mix properly. That is what Braverman is saying has failed.

It would help if people understood this.

I confess I didn't listen to yesterday's rivers of blood speech, but from the snippets and quotes I've heard, it came across as ambiguous - on the one hand could almost be taken as saying that we aren't doing the whole multiculturalism thing correctly, but on the other hand saying that the whole concept is a bad idea and we should all be a monoculture - by inference and together with the other rhetoric suggesting we should keep people out.

An attempt to play to the normal racist Tory base, while at the same time pretending there's something there for the more liberal among us?

I genuinely don't know, other than there are very few at that conference who should be anywhere near government.

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

Please don't try to be the poster child for social awareness.

I stand by my assessment that the line of reasoning that ends up with a citizenship test is a dead end.

So you're just dismissing it because you haven't seen it yourself? isn't that what you're accusing me of?

And anyway, how do you navigate the world of bureaucracy that's needed to exist in the country without the language? It's not beyond most people to learn, and that is a much more effective way to encourage them to be additive parts of society than it is to just stump up a translation service which will never be sufficient and will be both costly and cause resentment.

I am extremely pro immigration, as far as I am concerned, anyone who wants to come to work or doesn't instantly need to draw on social security can come, or has legitimate asylum needs as per the UN guidance, is all good.

As long as they learn the language. It's not hard. Literally.

I wouldn't dream of moving somewhere without learning the language. Madness. And people who don't cause resentment amongst the locals. Let's do some basic things to prevent that resentment.

I am not sure anyone will disagree to be honest, only that it's the least of the country's concerns at the moment. Bit like wrecking a car and worrying that it needs a valet.

rick_chasey

First.Aspect said:

I am not sure anyone will disagree to be honest, only that it's the least of the country's concerns at the moment. Bit like wrecking a car and worrying that it needs a valet.

So my argument we wouldn't have had Brexit, or all this other populist nonsense, if the gov't and the civil service had been more sensitive to the locals and more interested in integration in all of this.

(and I mean going back to the 90s and 00s onwards).

evil_breakfast

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

Please don't try to be the poster child for social awareness.

I stand by my assessment that the line of reasoning that ends up with a citizenship test is a dead end.

So you're just dismissing it because you haven't seen it yourself? isn't that what you're accusing me of?

And anyway, how do you navigate the world of bureaucracy that's needed to exist in the country without the language? It's not beyond most people to learn, and that is a much more effective way to encourage them to be additive parts of society than it is to just stump up a translation service which will never be sufficient and will be both costly and cause resentment.

I am extremely pro immigration, as far as I am concerned, anyone who wants to come to work or doesn't instantly need to draw on social security can come, or has legitimate asylum needs as per the UN guidance, is all good.

As long as they learn the language. It's not hard. Literally.

I wouldn't dream of moving somewhere without learning the language. Madness. And people who don't cause resentment amongst the locals. Let's do some basic things to prevent that resentment.

I am not sure anyone will disagree to be honest, only that it's the least of the country's concerns at the moment. Bit like wrecking a car and worrying that it needs a valet.

@rick_chasey "And anyway, how do you navigate the world of bureaucracy that's needed to exist in the country without the language?"

In my current gig, I'm required to discuss faults within a new-build property, to determine if it meets a threshold to organise an emergency call-out.
Trying to clarify this with someone whose English is, obviously, a 2nd language is extremely difficult.

First.Aspect

See what you've done RC?

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

I am not sure anyone will disagree to be honest, only that it's the least of the country's concerns at the moment. Bit like wrecking a car and worrying that it needs a valet.

So my argument we wouldn't have had Brexit, or all this other populist nonsense, if the gov't and the civil service had been more sensitive to the locals and more interested in integration in all of this.

(and I mean going back to the 90s and 00s onwards).

No. Anyone who voted for Brexit because they didn't like the influx of Eastern Europeans (who overwhelmingly work and also speak English) or brown people are xenophobes who don't want "them" to be intergrated in the first place.

Move on. Red herring. Not a silver bullet, etc.

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

Please don't try to be the poster child for social awareness.

I stand by my assessment that the line of reasoning that ends up with a citizenship test is a dead end.

So you're just dismissing it because you haven't seen it yourself? isn't that what you're accusing me of?

And anyway, how do you navigate the world of bureaucracy that's needed to exist in the country without the language? It's not beyond most people to learn, and that is a much more effective way to encourage them to be additive parts of society than it is to just stump up a translation service which will never be sufficient and will be both costly and cause resentment.

I am extremely pro immigration, as far as I am concerned, anyone who wants to come to work or doesn't instantly need to draw on social security can come, or has legitimate asylum needs as per the UN guidance, is all good.

As long as they learn the language. It's not hard. Literally.

I wouldn't dream of moving somewhere without learning the language. Madness. And people who don't cause resentment amongst the locals. Let's do some basic things to prevent that resentment.

Not often I agree with Rick but these sections of society also know how to play the system to get their relatives into the country and be provided with a translator to help them milk the benefits system. This will be very frustrating for those who feel disadvantaged by it as they are competing for resources.

As an eg the missus works in a hard core special needs school and I noticed more and more of her stories about the kids background started with when they came to this country. I will never criticise a parent for doing the best for there kids but the budget per kid will be well north of £50k pa and there is a dire shortage of places.

First.Aspect

evil_breakfast said:

First.Aspect said:

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

Please don't try to be the poster child for social awareness.

I stand by my assessment that the line of reasoning that ends up with a citizenship test is a dead end.

So you're just dismissing it because you haven't seen it yourself? isn't that what you're accusing me of?

And anyway, how do you navigate the world of bureaucracy that's needed to exist in the country without the language? It's not beyond most people to learn, and that is a much more effective way to encourage them to be additive parts of society than it is to just stump up a translation service which will never be sufficient and will be both costly and cause resentment.

I am extremely pro immigration, as far as I am concerned, anyone who wants to come to work or doesn't instantly need to draw on social security can come, or has legitimate asylum needs as per the UN guidance, is all good.

As long as they learn the language. It's not hard. Literally.

I wouldn't dream of moving somewhere without learning the language. Madness. And people who don't cause resentment amongst the locals. Let's do some basic things to prevent that resentment.

I am not sure anyone will disagree to be honest, only that it's the least of the country's concerns at the moment. Bit like wrecking a car and worrying that it needs a valet.

@rick_chasey "And anyway, how do you navigate the world of bureaucracy that's needed to exist in the country without the language?"

In my current gig, I'm required to discuss faults within a new-build property, to determine if it meets a threshold to organise an emergency call-out.
Trying to clarify this with someone whose English is, obviously, a 2nd language is extremely difficult.

Are you saying you think only people with English as a FIRST language should be here?

evil_breakfast

No I'm not, and I suspect you know this.
Life admin stuff requires to be , at least, familiar or comfortable with English.
In my current role, a lack of familiarity or vocabulary hinders my ability in doing my job effectively

First.Aspect

evil_breakfast said:

No I'm not, and I suspect you know this.
Life admin stuff requires to be , at least, familiar or comfortable with English.
In my current role, a lack of familiarity or vocabulary hinders my ability in doing my job effectively

It wasn't entirely clear from what you said.

In my experience, issues such as your hypothetical one are self filtering by the ability, or otherwise, to do the job.

For example, I work in legal, where precise use of language is critical. Many of my colleagues use English as a second language more effectively than UK graduates using it as their first.

evil_breakfast

What I've typed seems pretty clear to me.
Tell you what, try talking through a RCD reset procedure with someone who doesn't have a solid command of the language and get back to me?
Failing that, just call out a sparky and get a bollocking for doing so.

surrey_commuter

I worked with a british born chinese guy whose parents had successfully run a fish n chip shop but that was the only English they had ever learned. All their life admin had to be done by him and his sister.

He was strongly of the opinion that after 30 odd years they should have been bothered to learn the language

kingstongraham

Their own business isn't it, if it doesn't cause problems to anyone else.

Sure, there should be classes to help if they want to learn the language, but guess what has been slashed since 2010 as part of austerity?

First.Aspect

evil_breakfast said:

What I've typed seems pretty clear to me.
Tell you what, try talking through a RCD reset procedure with someone who doesn't have a solid command of the language and get back to me?
Failing that, just call out a sparky and get a bollocking for doing so.

How often are you inconvenienced in this manner, out of interest?

Given we are talking about home owners in new builds?

First.Aspect

First.Aspect said:

See what you've done RC?

Worth repeating. This topic is like turning over a log and watching the insects run around.

(Presumably they are all telling each other anecdotes about different types of insects who don't know their way around the hive.)

evil_breakfast

First.Aspect said:

evil_breakfast said:

What I've typed seems pretty clear to me.
Tell you what, try talking through a RCD reset procedure with someone who doesn't have a solid command of the language and get back to me?
Failing that, just call out a sparky and get a bollocking for doing so.

How often are you inconvenienced in this manner, out of interest?

Given we are talking about home owners in new builds?

A considerable amount; given that we, as an out-of-hours third party, implement the developers definition of emergency, which -often- conflicts with the homeowners definition of the word.
Factor in someone who is ill-at-ease with english, and add in performance benchmarks/metrics for my work assessment(s) and Ricks earlier point, which I highlighted, and the potential for "inconvenience" as you term term it, becomes abundantly clear.

rjsterry

evil_breakfast said:

No I'm not, and I suspect you know this.
Life admin stuff requires to be , at least, familiar or comfortable with English.
In my current role, a lack of familiarity or vocabulary hinders my ability in doing my job effectively

evil_breakfast said:

No I'm not, and I suspect you know this.
Life admin stuff requires to be , at least, familiar or comfortable with English.
In my current role, a lack of familiarity or vocabulary hinders my ability in doing my job effectively

I've worked with mostly Polish builders for the last 22 years and can count on my fingers the number of times that we've really struggled to communicate. I really should get on and learn some basic Polish.

Pross

Does scrapping HS2 cover the extra interest costs on the country's borrowing?

laurentian

Sunak's wife "opening" for him at the conference . . . cringeworthy stuff

kingstongraham

laurentian said:

Sunak's wife "opening" for him at the conference . . . cringeworthy stuff

It's true when he said she was a good long term decision for a brighter future. No doubt.

She's a better speaker than him.

rick_chasey

First.Aspect said:

First.Aspect said:

See what you've done RC?

Worth repeating. This topic is like turning over a log and watching the insects run around.

(Presumably they are all telling each other anecdotes about different types of insects who don't know their way around the hive.)

FWIW, and I am guilty of this more than most, that just accusing everyone who attaches some terms to emigrating to the UK as a racist or equivalent, is not especially constructive and if anything worsens the problem.

surrey_commuter

Pross said:

Does scrapping HS2 cover the extra interest costs on the country's borrowing?

Not even close, won't cover it for one month.

You could take your pick of other options
build twelve new hospitals a year for the forseeable future
improve rural broadband
raise tax thresholds
increase benefits
buy off the doctors and train drivers

rick_chasey

surrey_commuter said:

Pross said:

Does scrapping HS2 cover the extra interest costs on the country's borrowing?

Not even close, won't cover it for one month.

You could take your pick of other options
build twelve new hospitals a year for the forseeable future
improve rural broadband
raise tax thresholds
increase benefits
buy off the doctors and train drivers

What's your counter factual here, by the way?

That the economy would be the same size but the borrowing would be less?

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

Pross said:

Does scrapping HS2 cover the extra interest costs on the country's borrowing?

Not even close, won't cover it for one month.

You could take your pick of other options
build twelve new hospitals a year for the forseeable future
improve rural broadband
raise tax thresholds
increase benefits
buy off the doctors and train drivers

It's all apparently going on other transport projects in the North so nothing spare. Honest. This time they definitely won't cancel them 2/3 of the way through.

MidlandsGrimpeur2

So my argument we wouldn't have had Brexit, or all this other populist nonsense, if the gov't and the civil service had been more sensitive to the locals and more interested in integration in all of this.

(and I mean going back to the 90s and 00s onwards).

I think this misses a fundamental point. This goes back decades (not just the 90's), Brexit and the philsophical ideal behind it is rooted in empire, colonialism and many Britains misguided notion of British exceptionalism. It was never anything to do with Europe, it was a much wider rejection of all foreigners.

I agree that we got integration and multiculturalism badly wrong, but this was nothing to do with language. The British govt actively encouraged Commonwealth nationals to come here post WW2 and they were largely met with racist attitudes and a complete unwillingness to allow them to integrate socially, culturally and economically.

The whole language thing is a red herring really, the bigger question is why would you bother to integrate fully when you are invited here and then treated as a second class citizen?

I don't believe multicultralism has failed but I do believe we as a country have failed many people who have come here, many of whom (Windrush generation for example) have done so at our request.

It's interesting, the USA's original sin is slavery, for the British it is Colonialism and we can't seem to accept it within our collective national consciousness and therefore it is often the 'foreigners' fault for many of our societal issues.

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

First.Aspect said:

First.Aspect said:

See what you've done RC?

Worth repeating. This topic is like turning over a log and watching the insects run around.

(Presumably they are all telling each other anecdotes about different types of insects who don't know their way around the hive.)

FWIW, and I am guilty of this more than most, that just accusing everyone who attaches some terms to emigrating to the UK as a racist or equivalent, is not especially constructive and if anything worsens the problem.

I'm not doing that, just pointing out that the scale of these problems are far less than that attributed to them. Conclude from that what you will.

And I'm also point out that the issues are being cynically leveraged by the party currently in power.

surrey_commuter

rick_chasey said:

surrey_commuter said:

Pross said:

Does scrapping HS2 cover the extra interest costs on the country's borrowing?

Not even close, won't cover it for one month.

You could take your pick of other options
build twelve new hospitals a year for the forseeable future
improve rural broadband
raise tax thresholds
increase benefits
buy off the doctors and train drivers

What's your counter factual here, by the way?

That the economy would be the same size but the borrowing would be less?

Borrowing costs are about £120bn a year.

Annual spend on HS2 is about £7bn a year

Jezyboy

Raising the smoking age every year...

Just silly