Boris Johnson's Burkha Comments

surrey_commuter

nickice wrote:

I don't know if I'd go as far to say that there was a media cover-up but it was certainly surprising how long it took for these cases to become stories. I can see that the media are/were perhaps thinking of race relations but, as others have said, that just directs people towards the likes of Tommy Robinson and will make race relations worse in the long term.

I thought we were discussing a media cover up? Aren’t we comparing the coverage of Boris’s joke (that still nobody has explained to me) with coverage of child sex abuse gangs.

In any survey of the people there are always circa 15% that hold lunatic thoughts, Earth is flat, man never landed on moon, and it is a very short hop for those people to follow Yaxley Lennon on Facebook. Frankly we should not change the way we live because some moron cuts and pastes conspiracy theories.

rjsterry

Vino'sGhost wrote:

They are representative of a group of people who view white girls as below human and fair game, by a group that claims to be victim minorities but are in fact the majority, theyre only british whenn it suits and muslim the rest of the time. They have a culture of deciet and lying, theyve even got a name for it.

This isnt racist right wing commentary.

You sure about that?

shirley_basso

A group of people defined how, exactly?

1) A sweeping generalisation across an entire race

2) A group in sofar as there was more than 2 people involved

kingstongraham

rjsterry wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

They are representative of a group of people who view white girls as below human and fair game, by a group that claims to be victim minorities but are in fact the majority, theyre only british whenn it suits and muslim the rest of the time. They have a culture of deciet and lying, theyve even got a name for it.

This isnt racist right wing commentary.

You sure about that?

It really does sound like it.

veronese68

Shirley Basso wrote:

A group of people defined how, exactly?
1) A sweeping generalisation across an entire race
2) A group in sofar as there was more than 2 people involved

Whilst point 2 may be accurate I get the impression he meant as in point 1.

DeVlaeminck

Let's be honest - throughout history there are lots of examples of men sexually exploiting women whether that is knowingly paying for trafficked women, mass rape in military conflict, etc - a lot of men don't need much of an excuse to say that's ok because they aren't "our women".

Clearly here there is something within the culture which is giving these men the excuse to act like they are and something to do with our society that gives them the feeling that they are above the law and can get away with it. My take on it is we are starting to see some police action but we still need to address why they view white working class girls as fair game and I don't see that happening.

People often say none of this criticism of the niqab etc comes from a concern for women and equality it's just thinly veiled racism but having 2 daughters I don't want them or any other girls growing up in a society where part of that society are brought up to view them as less than equal. We shouldn't be afraid to say the culture of rural Pakistan is, in this area, hundreds of years behind our own and if you want to live in the uk get with the programme.

rjsterry

KingstonGraham wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

They are representative of a group of people who view white girls as below human and fair game, by a group that claims to be victim minorities but are in fact the majority, theyre only british whenn it suits and muslim the rest of the time. They have a culture of deciet and lying, theyve even got a name for it.

This isnt racist right wing commentary.

You sure about that?

It really does sound like it.

VG could be more of a leftie.

shirley_basso

But again that's a massive generalisation.

It's the same with any religious dress - what about nun's habits? They chose to wear it, and are equally oppressed by whoever forced Christianity upon then.
What about celibate bishops (notwithstanding the paedophilia claims) due to their devotion to god?
Buddhist monks?

The problem is that the exceptions provide the mass hysteria which sell newspapers, while most people are fine.

To a degree I say live and let live, but I do still feel that the Middle East does have a role to play in improving women's rights and gender equality and it does feel that the burqa is a representation of their lack thereof when viewed through western eyes.

surrey_commuter

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Let's be honest - throughout history there are lots of examples of men sexually exploiting women whether that is knowingly paying for trafficked women, mass rape in military conflict, etc - a lot of men don't need much of an excuse to say that's ok because they aren't "our women".

Clearly here there is something within the culture which is giving these men the excuse to act like they are and something to do with our society that gives them the feeling that they are above the law and can get away with it. My take on it is we are starting to see some police action but we still need to address why they view white working class girls as fair game and I don't see that happening.

People often say none of this criticism of the niqab etc comes from a concern for women and equality it's just thinly veiled racism but having 2 daughters I don't want them or any other girls growing up in a society where part of that society are brought up to view them as less than equal. We shouldn't be afraid to say the culture of rural Pakistan is, in this area, hundreds of years behind our own and if you want to live in the uk get with the programme.

That I would 100% agree with

To me the problem is that they will see the dress and behaviour of the chavvy white girls and see them as fair game.

nickice

Surrey Commuter wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Let's be honest - throughout history there are lots of examples of men sexually exploiting women whether that is knowingly paying for trafficked women, mass rape in military conflict, etc - a lot of men don't need much of an excuse to say that's ok because they aren't "our women".

Clearly here there is something within the culture which is giving these men the excuse to act like they are and something to do with our society that gives them the feeling that they are above the law and can get away with it. My take on it is we are starting to see some police action but we still need to address why they view white working class girls as fair game and I don't see that happening.

People often say none of this criticism of the niqab etc comes from a concern for women and equality it's just thinly veiled racism but having 2 daughters I don't want them or any other girls growing up in a society where part of that society are brought up to view them as less than equal. We shouldn't be afraid to say the culture of rural Pakistan is, in this area, hundreds of years behind our own and if you want to live in the uk get with the programme.

That I would 100% agree with

To me the problem is that they will see the dress and behaviour of the chavvy white girls and see them as fair game.

In some respects (minus the sexual exploitation)their attitude towards white girls is not that different to that of European societies towards women in short skirts before the sixties. Wasn't it once fairly common for people to question what a rape victim was wearing?

nickice

Shirley Basso wrote:

But again that's a massive generalisation.

It's the same with any religious dress - what about nun's habits? They chose to wear it, and are equally oppressed by whoever forced Christianity upon then.
What about celibate bishops (notwithstanding the paedophilia claims) due to their devotion to god?
Buddhist monks?

The problem is that the exceptions provide the mass hysteria which sell newspapers, while most people are fine.

To a degree I say live and let live, but I do still feel that the Middle East does have a role to play in improving women's rights and gender equality and it does feel that the burqa is a representation of their lack thereof when viewed through western eyes.

I've heard the analogy with nuns before. I don't think it's a good one as a nun is part of a religious community and there are no demands that every catholic women cover their hair.

rjsterry

nickice wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Let's be honest - throughout history there are lots of examples of men sexually exploiting women whether that is knowingly paying for trafficked women, mass rape in military conflict, etc - a lot of men don't need much of an excuse to say that's ok because they aren't "our women".

Clearly here there is something within the culture which is giving these men the excuse to act like they are and something to do with our society that gives them the feeling that they are above the law and can get away with it. My take on it is we are starting to see some police action but we still need to address why they view white working class girls as fair game and I don't see that happening.

People often say none of this criticism of the niqab etc comes from a concern for women and equality it's just thinly veiled racism but having 2 daughters I don't want them or any other girls growing up in a society where part of that society are brought up to view them as less than equal. We shouldn't be afraid to say the culture of rural Pakistan is, in this area, hundreds of years behind our own and if you want to live in the uk get with the programme.

That I would 100% agree with

To me the problem is that they will see the dress and behaviour of the chavvy white girls and see them as fair game.

In some respects (minus the sexual exploitation)their attitude towards white girls is not that different to that of European societies towards women in short skirts before the sixties. Wasn't it once fairly common for people to question what a rape victim was wearing?

Aside from the fact that that attitude is still alive and kicking, I agree.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 70286.html

rjsterry

nickice wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

But again that's a massive generalisation.

It's the same with any religious dress - what about nun's habits? They chose to wear it, and are equally oppressed by whoever forced Christianity upon then.
What about celibate bishops (notwithstanding the paedophilia claims) due to their devotion to god?
Buddhist monks?

The problem is that the exceptions provide the mass hysteria which sell newspapers, while most people are fine.

To a degree I say live and let live, but I do still feel that the Middle East does have a role to play in improving women's rights and gender equality and it does feel that the burqa is a representation of their lack thereof when viewed through western eyes.

I've heard the analogy with nuns before. I don't think it's a good one as a nun is part of a religious community and there are no demands that every catholic women cover their hair.

In an interview, one wearer gave an explanation that was quite similar to the motivation of those who decide to join a monastic order. Obviously that wouldn't apply to all wearers.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry wrote:

nickice wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Let's be honest - throughout history there are lots of examples of men sexually exploiting women whether that is knowingly paying for trafficked women, mass rape in military conflict, etc - a lot of men don't need much of an excuse to say that's ok because they aren't "our women".

Clearly here there is something within the culture which is giving these men the excuse to act like they are and something to do with our society that gives them the feeling that they are above the law and can get away with it. My take on it is we are starting to see some police action but we still need to address why they view white working class girls as fair game and I don't see that happening.

People often say none of this criticism of the niqab etc comes from a concern for women and equality it's just thinly veiled racism but having 2 daughters I don't want them or any other girls growing up in a society where part of that society are brought up to view them as less than equal. We shouldn't be afraid to say the culture of rural Pakistan is, in this area, hundreds of years behind our own and if you want to live in the uk get with the programme.

That I would 100% agree with

To me the problem is that they will see the dress and behaviour of the chavvy white girls and see them as fair game.

In some respects (minus the sexual exploitation)their attitude towards white girls is not that different to that of European societies towards women in short skirts before the sixties. Wasn't it once fairly common for people to question what a rape victim was wearing?

Aside from the fact that that attitude is still alive and kicking, I agree.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 70286.html

I imagine Chope will stop that getting into law

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Chope

coopster_the_1st

Surrey Commuter wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Let's be honest - throughout history there are lots of examples of men sexually exploiting women whether that is knowingly paying for trafficked women, mass rape in military conflict, etc - a lot of men don't need much of an excuse to say that's ok because they aren't "our women".

Clearly here there is something within the culture which is giving these men the excuse to act like they are and something to do with our society that gives them the feeling that they are above the law and can get away with it. My take on it is we are starting to see some police action but we still need to address why they view white working class girls as fair game and I don't see that happening.

People often say none of this criticism of the niqab etc comes from a concern for women and equality it's just thinly veiled racism but having 2 daughters I don't want them or any other girls growing up in a society where part of that society are brought up to view them as less than equal. We shouldn't be afraid to say the culture of rural Pakistan is, in this area, hundreds of years behind our own and if you want to live in the uk get with the programme.

That I would 100% agree with

To me the problem is that they will see the dress and behaviour of the chavvy white girls and see them as fair game.

Blame the victim! That goes down well around these parts.

You and many others were very vocal in not victim blaming with regards to Boris' burka comments yet that is perfectly ok in this case?

rjsterry

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Let's be honest - throughout history there are lots of examples of men sexually exploiting women whether that is knowingly paying for trafficked women, mass rape in military conflict, etc - a lot of men don't need much of an excuse to say that's ok because they aren't "our women".

Clearly here there is something within the culture which is giving these men the excuse to act like they are and something to do with our society that gives them the feeling that they are above the law and can get away with it. My take on it is we are starting to see some police action but we still need to address why they view white working class girls as fair game and I don't see that happening.

People often say none of this criticism of the niqab etc comes from a concern for women and equality it's just thinly veiled racism but having 2 daughters I don't want them or any other girls growing up in a society where part of that society are brought up to view them as less than equal. We shouldn't be afraid to say the culture of rural Pakistan is, in this area, hundreds of years behind our own and if you want to live in the uk get with the programme.

That I would 100% agree with

To me the problem is that they will see the dress and behaviour of the chavvy white girls and see them as fair game.

Blame the victim! That goes down well around these parts.

You and many others were very vocal in not victim blaming with regards to Boris' burka comments yet that is perfectly ok in this case?

I think he's saying that the problem is that people initially blamed the victims, because they shared that view. Not that it was a valid view.

shirley_basso

But Brexit means Brexit!

surrey_commuter

rjsterry wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Let's be honest - throughout history there are lots of examples of men sexually exploiting women whether that is knowingly paying for trafficked women, mass rape in military conflict, etc - a lot of men don't need much of an excuse to say that's ok because they aren't "our women".

Clearly here there is something within the culture which is giving these men the excuse to act like they are and something to do with our society that gives them the feeling that they are above the law and can get away with it. My take on it is we are starting to see some police action but we still need to address why they view white working class girls as fair game and I don't see that happening.

People often say none of this criticism of the niqab etc comes from a concern for women and equality it's just thinly veiled racism but having 2 daughters I don't want them or any other girls growing up in a society where part of that society are brought up to view them as less than equal. We shouldn't be afraid to say the culture of rural Pakistan is, in this area, hundreds of years behind our own and if you want to live in the uk get with the programme.

That I would 100% agree with

To me the problem is that they will see the dress and behaviour of the chavvy white girls and see them as fair game.

Blame the victim! That goes down well around these parts.

You and many others were very vocal in not victim blaming with regards to Boris' burka comments yet that is perfectly ok in this case?

I think he's saying that the problem is that people initially blamed the victims, because they shared that view. Not that it was a valid view.

He doesn’t understand words

DeVlaeminck

rjsterry wrote:

Aside from the fact that that attitude is still alive and kicking, I agree.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 70286.html

Absolutely this isn't confined to one section of society - as with lots of things like workers rights, economic inequality etc we can't assume that we wont lose the gains we've made if stop fighting for them - the battle is never won. I run a ladies youth (its u17ish) football team and my barber came out with some shocking sexist crap about when he reffed Derby ladies a few years ago (he got a warning for making a comment to a player about what he'd like to do with the physios sponge - I mean how he thought that was acceptable I'm not sure). I wasn't sure if it was worse that he couldn't see what he'd done wrong or that he felt I would share his outlook.

nickice

rjsterry wrote:

nickice wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Let's be honest - throughout history there are lots of examples of men sexually exploiting women whether that is knowingly paying for trafficked women, mass rape in military conflict, etc - a lot of men don't need much of an excuse to say that's ok because they aren't "our women".

Clearly here there is something within the culture which is giving these men the excuse to act like they are and something to do with our society that gives them the feeling that they are above the law and can get away with it. My take on it is we are starting to see some police action but we still need to address why they view white working class girls as fair game and I don't see that happening.

People often say none of this criticism of the niqab etc comes from a concern for women and equality it's just thinly veiled racism but having 2 daughters I don't want them or any other girls growing up in a society where part of that society are brought up to view them as less than equal. We shouldn't be afraid to say the culture of rural Pakistan is, in this area, hundreds of years behind our own and if you want to live in the uk get with the programme.

That I would 100% agree with

To me the problem is that they will see the dress and behaviour of the chavvy white girls and see them as fair game.

In some respects (minus the sexual exploitation)their attitude towards white girls is not that different to that of European societies towards women in short skirts before the sixties. Wasn't it once fairly common for people to question what a rape victim was wearing?

Aside from the fact that that attitude is still alive and kicking, I agree.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 70286.html

Much as I feel sorry for women who have been raped, I'm also concerned about potentially innocent men being sent to prison. Many witnesses get torn apart on the stand. It's not nice but I understand why it happens.

nickice

DeVlaeminck wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Aside from the fact that that attitude is still alive and kicking, I agree.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 70286.html

Absolutely this isn't confined to one section of society - as with lots of things like workers rights, economic inequality etc we can't assume that we wont lose the gains we've made if stop fighting for them - the battle is never won. I run a ladies youth (its u17ish) football team and my barber came out with some shocking sexist crap about when he reffed Derby ladies a few years ago (he got a warning for making a comment to a player about what he'd like to do with the physios sponge - I mean how he thought that was acceptable I'm not sure). I wasn't sure if it was worse that he couldn't see what he'd done wrong or that he felt I would share his outlook.

I wonder if this is exactly why conservative Muslims would say men and women need to live largely separate lives. Male behaviour will never change.

rjsterry

nickice wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

nickice wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Let's be honest - throughout history there are lots of examples of men sexually exploiting women whether that is knowingly paying for trafficked women, mass rape in military conflict, etc - a lot of men don't need much of an excuse to say that's ok because they aren't "our women".

Clearly here there is something within the culture which is giving these men the excuse to act like they are and something to do with our society that gives them the feeling that they are above the law and can get away with it. My take on it is we are starting to see some police action but we still need to address why they view white working class girls as fair game and I don't see that happening.

People often say none of this criticism of the niqab etc comes from a concern for women and equality it's just thinly veiled racism but having 2 daughters I don't want them or any other girls growing up in a society where part of that society are brought up to view them as less than equal. We shouldn't be afraid to say the culture of rural Pakistan is, in this area, hundreds of years behind our own and if you want to live in the uk get with the programme.

That I would 100% agree with

To me the problem is that they will see the dress and behaviour of the chavvy white girls and see them as fair game.

In some respects (minus the sexual exploitation)their attitude towards white girls is not that different to that of European societies towards women in short skirts before the sixties. Wasn't it once fairly common for people to question what a rape victim was wearing?

Aside from the fact that that attitude is still alive and kicking, I agree.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 70286.html

Much as I feel sorry for women who have been raped, I'm also concerned about potentially innocent men being sent to prison. Many witnesses get torn apart on the stand. It's not nice but I understand why it happens.

The point was that the (entirely false) idea that choice of dress is some form contributory negligence is not something left in the 1960s.

rjsterry

nickice wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Aside from the fact that that attitude is still alive and kicking, I agree.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 70286.html

Absolutely this isn't confined to one section of society - as with lots of things like workers rights, economic inequality etc we can't assume that we wont lose the gains we've made if stop fighting for them - the battle is never won. I run a ladies youth (its u17ish) football team and my barber came out with some shocking sexist crap about when he reffed Derby ladies a few years ago (he got a warning for making a comment to a player about what he'd like to do with the physios sponge - I mean how he thought that was acceptable I'm not sure). I wasn't sure if it was worse that he couldn't see what he'd done wrong or that he felt I would share his outlook.

I wonder if this is exactly why conservative Muslims would say men and women need to live largely separate lives. Male behaviour will never change.

A bit of a counsel of despair, no? I mean why act against any negative traits? It's also a total abdication of responsibility.

nickice

rjsterry wrote:

nickice wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

nickice wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Let's be honest - throughout history there are lots of examples of men sexually exploiting women whether that is knowingly paying for trafficked women, mass rape in military conflict, etc - a lot of men don't need much of an excuse to say that's ok because they aren't "our women".

Clearly here there is something within the culture which is giving these men the excuse to act like they are and something to do with our society that gives them the feeling that they are above the law and can get away with it. My take on it is we are starting to see some police action but we still need to address why they view white working class girls as fair game and I don't see that happening.

People often say none of this criticism of the niqab etc comes from a concern for women and equality it's just thinly veiled racism but having 2 daughters I don't want them or any other girls growing up in a society where part of that society are brought up to view them as less than equal. We shouldn't be afraid to say the culture of rural Pakistan is, in this area, hundreds of years behind our own and if you want to live in the uk get with the programme.

That I would 100% agree with

To me the problem is that they will see the dress and behaviour of the chavvy white girls and see them as fair game.

In some respects (minus the sexual exploitation)their attitude towards white girls is not that different to that of European societies towards women in short skirts before the sixties. Wasn't it once fairly common for people to question what a rape victim was wearing?

Aside from the fact that that attitude is still alive and kicking, I agree.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 70286.html

Much as I feel sorry for women who have been raped, I'm also concerned about potentially innocent men being sent to prison. Many witnesses get torn apart on the stand. It's not nice but I understand why it happens.

The point was that the (entirely false) idea that choice of dress is some form contributory negligence is not something left in the 1960s.

I was talking more about public and police attitudes rather than in court where I think the interests of justice outweigh anything else. Of course, the article you cited from the Independent doesn't give much context and I'm not sure I really trust it now as a source.

nickice

rjsterry wrote:

nickice wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Aside from the fact that that attitude is still alive and kicking, I agree.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 70286.html

Absolutely this isn't confined to one section of society - as with lots of things like workers rights, economic inequality etc we can't assume that we wont lose the gains we've made if stop fighting for them - the battle is never won. I run a ladies youth (its u17ish) football team and my barber came out with some shocking sexist crap about when he reffed Derby ladies a few years ago (he got a warning for making a comment to a player about what he'd like to do with the physios sponge - I mean how he thought that was acceptable I'm not sure). I wasn't sure if it was worse that he couldn't see what he'd done wrong or that he felt I would share his outlook.

I wonder if this is exactly why conservative Muslims would say men and women need to live largely separate lives. Male behaviour will never change.

A bit of a counsel of despair, no? I mean why act against any negative traits? It's also a total abdication of responsibility.

Because nobody knows what the rules are. Everyone knows, or should know, that rape is wrong but sexual harassment is much more blurry. One woman will take as harassment what another will take as flirting etc. I've heard some men say some pretty filthy things to girls (including at work) who they've then later got together with.

When it comes to rape, it's going to be an incredibly difficult crime to prove if it's a date rape. Women should be aware that if they put themselves in situations such as going to a man's hotel room (including doing so while drunk) that they always have the right to say no but that it if they are raped, it's going to be difficult to prove it. Sad but true.

rjsterry

nickice wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

nickice wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Aside from the fact that that attitude is still alive and kicking, I agree.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 70286.html

Absolutely this isn't confined to one section of society - as with lots of things like workers rights, economic inequality etc we can't assume that we wont lose the gains we've made if stop fighting for them - the battle is never won. I run a ladies youth (its u17ish) football team and my barber came out with some shocking sexist crap about when he reffed Derby ladies a few years ago (he got a warning for making a comment to a player about what he'd like to do with the physios sponge - I mean how he thought that was acceptable I'm not sure). I wasn't sure if it was worse that he couldn't see what he'd done wrong or that he felt I would share his outlook.

I wonder if this is exactly why conservative Muslims would say men and women need to live largely separate lives. Male behaviour will never change.

A bit of a counsel of despair, no? I mean why act against any negative traits? It's also a total abdication of responsibility.

Because nobody knows what the rules are. Everyone knows, or should know, that rape is wrong but sexual harassment is much more blurry. One woman will take as harassment what another will take as flirting etc. I've heard some men say some pretty filthy things to girls (including at work) who they've then later got together with.

Oh, FFS, you don't need rules you just need a basic ability to read human responses and not to be an ar*ehole.

When it comes to rape, it's going to be an incredibly difficult crime to prove if it's a date rape. Women should be aware that if they put themselves in situations such as going to a man's hotel room (including doing so while drunk) that they always have the right to say no but that it if they are raped, it's going to be difficult to prove it. Sad but true.

Or, you know, people could just have a bit of f***ing self control and if someone changes their mind or is unconscious then come back another time. Not act as though they're not in control of their own d*** and expect someone else to take responsibility for stopping them.

nickice

rjsterry wrote:

nickice wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

nickice wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Aside from the fact that that attitude is still alive and kicking, I agree.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 70286.html

Absolutely this isn't confined to one section of society - as with lots of things like workers rights, economic inequality etc we can't assume that we wont lose the gains we've made if stop fighting for them - the battle is never won. I run a ladies youth (its u17ish) football team and my barber came out with some shocking sexist crap about when he reffed Derby ladies a few years ago (he got a warning for making a comment to a player about what he'd like to do with the physios sponge - I mean how he thought that was acceptable I'm not sure). I wasn't sure if it was worse that he couldn't see what he'd done wrong or that he felt I would share his outlook.

I wonder if this is exactly why conservative Muslims would say men and women need to live largely separate lives. Male behaviour will never change.

A bit of a counsel of despair, no? I mean why act against any negative traits? It's also a total abdication of responsibility.

Because nobody knows what the rules are. Everyone knows, or should know, that rape is wrong but sexual harassment is much more blurry. One woman will take as harassment what another will take as flirting etc. I've heard some men say some pretty filthy things to girls (including at work) who they've then later got together with.

Oh, FFS, you don't need rules you just need a basic ability to read human responses and not to be an ar*ehole.

When it comes to rape, it's going to be an incredibly difficult crime to prove if it's a date rape. Women should be aware that if they put themselves in situations such as going to a man's hotel room (including doing so while drunk) that they always have the right to say no but that it if they are raped, it's going to be difficult to prove it. Sad but true.

Or, you know, people could just have a bit of f***ing self control and if someone changes their mind or is unconscious then come back another time. Not act as though they're not in control of their own d*** and expect someone else to take responsibility for stopping them.

You do need rules. Some of the most successful people I've known (if you want to measure it like that) in terms of getting girls are also some of the sleaziest. Some probably think they're just harassers but others seem to like them. For example, how many times have we heard a girl say she likes to be chased? It's all very well imagining a world where the chivalrous are the most successful with women but it's just a fantasy.

As for your other comments, I didn't say the rapist was in the right, just that rape will be difficult to prove in that situation. Do you disagree?

rjsterry

Fine. Rule no. 1: Don't be an ar*ehole. Rule no. 2: read people's responses.

If you want to call that chivalrous, fine by me.

I wouldn't know about "getting girls" or how you measure success, but possibly it's not a numbers game. It's also possible that "chased" is not the same as "harassed".

And you didn't just suggest that rape would be difficult to prove in that situation.

nickice

rjsterry wrote:

Fine. Rule no. 1: Don't be an ar*ehole. Rule no. 2: read people's responses.

If you want to call that chivalrous, fine by me.

I wouldn't know about "getting girls" or how you measure success, but possibly it's not a numbers game. It's also possible that "chased" is not the same as "harassed".

And you didn't just suggest that rape would be difficult to prove in that situation.

That won't work in a company's internal rule book will it. And it's not as if ar*seholes have trouble finding girlfriends. And chased and harassed mean different things to different people.

And what are you suggesting I'm saying with my rape comments. My advice would be not to go home alonea with a man unless you are sure you want to sleep with him as there are some nasty guys out there and it'll be his word against yours.

rjsterry

nickice wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Fine. Rule no. 1: Don't be an ar*ehole. Rule no. 2: read people's responses.

If you want to call that chivalrous, fine by me.

I wouldn't know about "getting girls" or how you measure success, but possibly it's not a numbers game. It's also possible that "chased" is not the same as "harassed".

And you didn't just suggest that rape would be difficult to prove in that situation.

That won't work in a company's internal rule book will it. And it's not as if ar*seholes have trouble finding girlfriends. And chased and harassed mean different things to different people.

And what are you suggesting I'm saying with my rape comments. My advice would be not to go home alonea with a man unless you are sure you want to sleep with him as there are some nasty guys out there and it'll be his word against yours.

If it's in the workplace, it's very simple: whatever it says in your contract. Mine has a specific section dealing with harassment. I assumed you meant outside work.

I'm not suggesting anything; you wrote "they always have the right to say no but...." It's not a question of a right to say no, but a responsibility to be sure that the other party or parties consent. Failure to say no is not presumed consent.