2018 classics thread

philbar72

RichN95 wrote:

philbar72 wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Talking of weather, strong winds are predicted tomorrow for Sprinterprijs

So I may have to deselect Kittel

He doesn't do well in crosswinds?

He's always seemed to miss out on echelons in the past. And I expect Katusha to be worse at dealing with them than his previous teams.

True, with his last team they'd have been infuriated he constantly fell away when he was needed. seems a very high maintenance "Luxury" sprinter, inasmuch as he probably expects others to get him to the last 200m with the minimal effort.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Boonen on Sagan “should keep his mouth shut about working together. He’s a wheelsucker himself”.

Boonen seems like he’s on his way to emulating De Vlaeminck as a pundit as well.

Do explain.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Boonen on Sagan “should keep his mouth shut about working together. He’s a wheelsucker himself”.

Boonen seems like he’s on his way to emulating De Vlaeminck as a pundit as well.

Do explain.

There seems to be a touch of "These new riders aren't like they were in my time, blah, blah, blah...." to his comments.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Boonen on Sagan “should keep his mouth shut about working together. He’s a wheelsucker himself”.

Boonen seems like he’s on his way to emulating De Vlaeminck as a pundit as well.

Do explain.

There seems to be a touch of "These new riders aren't like they were in my time, blah, blah, blah...." to his comments.

Not really.

Sagan moans about riders not willing to work with him. Boonen has ridden with him in the peloton and feels he's as much a wheelsucker as the people he's complaining about. He's just calling out the hypocritical position.

ContrelaMontre

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Boonen on Sagan “should keep his mouth shut about working together. He’s a wheelsucker himself”.

Boonen seems like he’s on his way to emulating De Vlaeminck as a pundit as well.

Do explain.

There seems to be a touch of "These new riders aren't like they were in my time, blah, blah, blah...." to his comments.

Not really.

Sagan moans about riders not willing to work with him. Boonen has ridden with him in the peloton and feels he's as much a wheelsucker as the people he's complaining about. He's just calling out the hypocritical position.

e.g. World Champs 2017. Top class wheelsucking.

shirley_basso

Worlds in '16 he did have to bridge solo into that headwind/echelon which was pretty awesome.

He wheelsucks due to lack of team who would otherwise protect him. Not so much excuse this year.

bobmcstuff

Shirley Basso wrote:

Worlds in '16 he did have to bridge solo into that headwind/echelon which was pretty awesome.

He wheelsucks due to lack of team who would otherwise protect him. Not so much excuse this year.

I think he also wheelsucks because everyone is usually watching him, as he seems to be favourite for most one day races. This means unless he can put in a really decisive move he doesn't bother and ends up following wheels - there's always a lot of people waiting to cover.

That and the lack of team support as you mention, even this year Oss is good but other teams have more lieutenants.

rick_chasey

Wet & muddy for some on their recon rides.

shirley_basso

Rick Chasey wrote:

Wet & muddy for some on their recon rides.

In the PR thread pls

milton50

bobmcstuff wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

Worlds in '16 he did have to bridge solo into that headwind/echelon which was pretty awesome.

He wheelsucks due to lack of team who would otherwise protect him. Not so much excuse this year.

I think he also wheelsucks because everyone is usually watching him, as he seems to be favourite for most one day races. This means unless he can put in a really decisive move he doesn't bother and ends up following wheels - there's always a lot of people waiting to cover.

Correct. It's the Valverde Modus Operandi.

You have to convince everyone else that you are willing to lose rather than chase everything down.

Vino'sGhost

Milton50 wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

Worlds in '16 he did have to bridge solo into that headwind/echelon which was pretty awesome.

He wheelsucks due to lack of team who would otherwise protect him. Not so much excuse this year.

I think he also wheelsucks because everyone is usually watching him, as he seems to be favourite for most one day races. This means unless he can put in a really decisive move he doesn't bother and ends up following wheels - there's always a lot of people waiting to cover.

Correct. It's the Valverde Modus Operandi.

You have to convince everyone else that you are willing to lose rather than chase everything down.

LOL Valverdes not a wheelsucker,

DeVlaeminck

I think Sagan has a point, on Sunday the others seemed willing to work together to bring him back but not work with him to bring Terpstra back, that said I don't think making over the top gestures waving people through and then slagging them off in the press is likely to encourage them to cooperate in the future. Boonen was an aggressive rider but I don't think more so than Sagan.

Beatmaker

andyp

Vino'sGhost wrote:

LOL Valverdes not a wheelsucker,

I know you make a habit of posting sh!te on here, but this is the best one yet.

ddraver

I slightly feel for Sagan here

(N.B. as discussed this is not based on any recent races as I can't watch etc)

He has one of the most impressive lists of 2nd places in the sport because actually he spent a good few seasons chasing down attacks only to be wheelsucked and pipped for 1st (the court calls one Michael Kwiatowski). Everyone from podcast journos to IFPs have been saying he needs to be prepared to lose a few races to win.

Well he has been doing that recently and if any team other than QSF want to win a race they re going to have to get used to not being able to just sit on Sagan's wheel any more.

I love you Tommeke, but I can't agree with you here...

m.r.m.

It's also down to him lacking the Cancellara TT ability of solo bridging huge gaps and his certain lack of tactical awareness of when to bridge and cajole others into helping and when not to. He tends to only win races where others initiate a selection and he is strong enough to immediately make it and then either solo at the very end or outsprint them.

So, I see Boonen's point. Although I'm sure Boonen's sentiments are coloured by loyalty towards Terpstra and his QS teammates.

I think Cancellara at Trek was in a similar team situation Sagan is in now. He was simply able to bridge the gaps usually when he missed the initial selection.

ShutupJens

I think Sagan's point is directed more at other teams isn't it, ie that in order to beat Quickstep you have to do be proactive because once they get someone up the road you're fighting a losing battle.

I do agree about the de Vlaeminck point. Yeah Boonen and Sagan raced in the same bunches but I don't recall a time when they really went head to head, Boonen was far from his best when Sagan became a favourite for this big ones. As far as being a wheelsucker goes, when the legs are there you know that Sagan isn't likely to want to wait for a sprint if he can help it

m.r.m.

ShutupJens wrote:

As far as being a wheelsucker goes, when the legs are there you know that Sagan isn't likely to want to wait for a sprint if he can help it

I don't think that is true. In a smaller group or selection where he will usually be the strongest sprinter he absolutely waits for the sprint (as he should). He just keeps pulling at the front even when he shouldn't (multiple MSR; Ciolek win, Kwiato win, E3 when Kwiato won and in multiple GVA duels e.g.)

RichN95.

A-Level cycling essay topic.

Sagan. He wins the Worlds. He doesn't win the Monuments. Discuss.

Basically the World's are not that selective and he comes from a minor country that doesn't have a DS that has to justify his job.

The three World's that he has won has had a reasonably large group (20+) come to the finish. Twice he's won the bunch sprint and once he's had a convenient ramp 2.5km from the end to launch an attack.

But the monuments, at least the cobbled ones, are more selective. There may be a 20+ group with 30km to go, but never with 3km. Sagan thrives when there are big teams willing to work - he can sit back - Belgium, France, GB, they've got plenty left, with DS needing to justify their jobs - no-one for Slovakia, Slovenia, Sokovia, whatever. But when it gets down to the brass tacks in the other big races, no-one has much in the way of teammates and every DS knows that there's other races if they fail at this, a podium is good.

m.r.m.

100% true.

ShutupJens

M.R.M. wrote:

ShutupJens wrote:

As far as being a wheelsucker goes, when the legs are there you know that Sagan isn't likely to want to wait for a sprint if he can help it

I don't think that is true. In a smaller group or selection where he will usually be the strongest sprinter he absolutely waits for the sprint (as he should). He just keeps pulling at the front even when he shouldn't (multiple MSR; Ciolek win, Kwiato win, E3 when Kwiato won and in multiple GVA duels e.g.)

The smaller groups at MSR, E3 etc though - who initiated that move to go away?

tailwindhome

Quick-Step Floors transfers business.
Riders in bold have booked a win in 2018


Ins: Fabio Jakobsen (SEG Racing Academy), James Knox (Team Wiggins), Michael Mørkøv (Katusha-Alpecin), Jhonathan Narvaez (Axeon Hagens Berman), Florian Sénéchal (Cofidis), Elia Viviani (Team Sky)


Renewals: Julian Alapahilippe, Tim Declercq, Dries Devenyns, Fernando Gaviria, Philippe Gilbert, Bob Jungels, Iljo Keisse, Yves Lampaert, Davide Martinelli, Maximiliano Richeze, Fabio Sabatini, Pieter Serry, Zdenek Stybar, Niki Terpstra, Petr Vakoc


24 wins to date with the following riders having departed!

Outs: Jack Bauer (Orica-Scott), Tom Boonen (retired), Gianluca Brambilla (Trek-Segafredo), Marcel Kittel (Katusha-Alpecin), Dan Martin (UAE Team Emirates), Matteo Trentin (Orica-Scott), Julien Vermote (Dimension Data)

RichN95.

TailWindHome wrote:

Outs: Jack Bauer (Orica-Scott), Tom Boonen (retired), Gianluca Brambilla (Trek-Segafredo), Marcel Kittel (Katusha-Alpecin), Dan Martin (UAE Team Emirates), Matteo Trentin (Orica-Scott), Julien Vermote (Dimension Data)

And David De La Cruz who, along with Kittel, has managed a couple of wins.

I'm not sure how much they'll win after LBL. A lot resting on the shoulders of Gaviria and Viviani for the rest of the season.

pinno

Sagan is a marked man. No one wants to work with him only to be dropped or out sprinted at a later point.
If he's serious about winning a P-R or Flanders, he'll have to work very hard and work hard on his own or be more aggressive.
Perhaps even, change his tactics. Merckx played his rivals like a fiddle. What would have happened if he had gone with Terpstra ?
Terpstra capitalised on first, the lack of cohesion behind and second, a well timed move and I wonder if that lack of the collective was precisely because Sagan was in that chase group behind Pedersen.

norvernrob

At some point Sagan needs to stop moaning and start winning more. Yes, he might be a marked man but so was every other top one day rider - except they still managed to consistently win monuments and classics.

I don’t really like him, which tbh isn’t really down to him. It’s more the knob jockeys on the FB pages who barely ever watch pro cycling but think he wins every race he enters because he does wheelies.

m.r.m.

ShutupJens wrote:

The smaller groups at MSR, E3 etc though - who initiated that move to go away?

Sometimes him, sometimes others. I will not argue, that he doesn't try to force a selection. I would not call him a wheelsucker. I absolutely concede that point.

Pinno wrote:

What would have happened if he had gone with Terpstra ?

The move would have been shut down. Gilbert would have counter attacked and Sagan would have either covered or been spent. If he had covered, Terpstra would attack again and Sagan would have been spent with the same final result most likely. Gilbert would have likely won in the other scenario.
Sagan has a point in his complaints. It is his fault though. He has always chosen money over a stronger team. He could take 2-3 million less and build a much stronger squad instead of going for max money. He could have inherited Boonen's spot on QS for example. It's not like there is a single team that would not have taken him if he had wanted less money and wanted to bring less people with him.

ShutupJens

I agree with MRM, although he has brought riders to Bora it's still not enough to stop him from being isolated. Oss is a strong acquisition but was used up in the wrong way on Sunday. Hoping that he can do something different in Roubaix

gsk82

andyp wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

LOL Valverdes not a wheelsucker,

I know you make a habit of posting sh!te on here, but this is the best one yet.

He used to be as bad as Gerrans, but he's been very aggressive the last couple of seasons

andyp

gsk82 wrote:

He used to be as bad as Gerrans, but he's been very aggressive the last couple of seasons

Perhaps, but only in, to quote Cavendish, shitty little races.

Vino'sGhost

andyp wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

LOL Valverdes not a wheelsucker,

I know you make a habit of posting sh!te on here, but this is the best one yet.

I know you believe you know everything but I cant imagine youve seen some of his recent wins.