I'm Shunning discs.

ugo.santalucia

IME discs in the wet are not as amazing as people say... they are just about OK, but inferior to dry conditions.

The problem I had with discs over 9 years and still unresolved is mainly the faff of trying to get them to align perfectly, when the post mounts are not perfect... pad wear was always inconsistent and also unpredictable... a set of pads would last one year, another identical would last two gritty rides. Before any major event I was always in two mind whether the pads were ready for the bin or good for another 6 months... the difference is a few tenth of a millimeter, hard to judge by eye.
Mechanical needed constant adjustment, whereas semi hydraulic have a lever throw which was a bit too long. I thought the Juin Tech might be the happy medium, but I am not very impressed by them to be honest. Then there is the need for compressionless outer cable, which is expensive and hard to source... it took me the best part of an afternoon to work out which jagwire cables I needed and where to find them... other brands just don't exist in the UK.

THEN, pads come in a million shapes, the original from the manufacturers are impossible to find (TRP distribution of spares in the UK is pretty much zero) and the non original often a gamble whether it is the right pad or not...

It really is a lot of faff and it shouldn't... they could at least standardise pads and mounts

I suppose Shimano Hydro are a bit more standardised, but they are so expensive it's not worth bothering IMO

itboffin

so whats with the hydro rim brakes? i've seen a few sets out there whilst looking for a hydro disc, rotor and sram both make them, is that for TT because surely on a normal sti lever that would just be too powerful

ugo.santalucia

itboffin wrote:

so whats with the hydro rim brakes? i've seen a few sets out there whilst looking for a hydro disc, rotor and sram both make them, is that for TT because surely on a normal sti lever that would just be too powerful

Fancy pants for people with no finger strength... of course if you need to descend a 40 km mountain with an average 10% gradient... they are probably quite helpful

Don't think such mountain exist though... and if it did nobody would be able to go up it... :roll:

dodgy

ugo.santalucia wrote:

It really is a lot of faff

Not really.

ugo.santalucia

dodgy wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

It really is a lot of faff

Not really.

Here is my experience

https://whosatthewheel.com/2017/05/05/m ... -a-review/

hopkinb

Hydros are where it's at. My bike was £1200 on cycle to work, so £800 in actual money out of the door. Yes it was a 25% discount offer, but Sram HRD 22 groupset. Ti frame. I have replaced the wheels, as they were made from cheese. The brakes are virtually maintenance free. Kevlar pads from superstar at 4 quid each end. They just work. All weathers, all the time. No rub or drag. If i get sign off for another bike, I'd like to go for something just for dry days, and I have my eye on a supersix with sram red with rim brakes off Paul's cycles. But for the shitty stop start riding I do 90% of the time, at my weight, hydraulic discs are just totally fit for purpose.

ugo.santalucia

hopkinb wrote:

Hydros are where it's at. My bike was £1200 on cycle to work, so £800 in actual money out of the door. Yes it was a 25% discount offer, but Sram HRD 22 groupset. Ti frame. I have replaced the wheels, as they were made from cheese. The brakes are virtually maintenance free. Kevlar pads from superstar at 4 quid each end. They just work. All weathers, all the time. No rub or drag. If i get sign off for another bike, I'd like to go for something just for dry days, and I have my eye on a supersix with sram red with rim brakes off Paul's cycles. But for the sh!tty stop start riding I do 90% of the time, at my weight, hydraulic discs are just totally fit for purpose.

Agree... I still have discs on my commuter

luv2ride

Shimano hydro discs with Icetech rotors on my new Solace are great and fettle free (as are the Hylex's on my singlespeed). Rim brakes on my CR1 are absolutely fine, even on the carbon rims (though rarely used in the wet). Mech TRP Spyres not so great (wet or dry), require constant fettling and adjustment. Bought Jagwire compressionless brake cable set to see if this improves them, but haven't got round to fitting yet.

roger_merriman

ugo.santalucia wrote:

dodgy wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

It really is a lot of faff

Not really.

Here is my experience

https://whosatthewheel.com/2017/05/05/m ... -a-review/

The roadie disks are well works in progress, so I think on the general term I think your being a bit harsh on them though I do get the frustration.

On flat bar bikes be that hybrids or MTB though they work very well, and have done for well over a decade now, My old town bike Needed it's pad changed the other day been 4 years so not bad, though the rear has a little life in it after 4K I guess.

cycleclinic

why is it them when I ride my genesis although not at present due to broken bones I get none of the issue ugo describes. the spyres I have work fine all of the time. The only time I get an issue is when the pads are worn. In the wet i stop predicably.
There is no rim wear which i like alot. Cable pull on some shifters mean the tektro spyres feel either

I own many more rim brake bikes. I stop well on those too or i would not ride them but they all have short reach calipers. The one bike with long drops does not stop as well. Thats the trick isn't it. If you have bigger tyres and or guards with rim brakes you need longer drop brakes which are adaquate at best. Disc brake transform those bikes whether mechanical or hydraulic although they have to be setup right.

I suppose one thing rim brakes are good for is keeping wheel builders an manufacturers in business. On that point ditch discs it will help bike shops.

Alot of this discusion though I feel is quite pointless as use whatever stops you well. That simple.

ugo.santalucia

The clearance argument is the most relevant and the reason I got discs at the time. I no longer use off road tyres though. The rim wear argument is not a big deal for me, for obvious reasons.

For road only use, I can't see a need for a tyre bigger than 28-30 mm, which easily clears 5800 calipers... of course a frame need to be chosen carefully... but then again, many road disc frames don't have much clearance either

bendertherobot

I've not had a single issue with the Juin Tech and, for me, they're better value than the Trp Hy Rd. I agree with Ugo though that pretty much all of them need a compressionless outer.

ugo.santalucia

bendertherobot wrote:

I've not had a single issue with the Juin Tech and, for me, they're better value than the Trp Hy Rd. I agree with Ugo though that pretty much all of them need a compressionless outer.

Mine seem a bit slow in the return, very spongy... I need to remove the pads and give them a clean to see if it's the piston or it's the cable... can't be bothered though. Without compressionless are neither bad nor good... they are there, indifferent.

Do you trust them? Would you do the Fred Whitton course with them?

schlepcycling

ugo.santalucia wrote:

bendertherobot wrote:

I've not had a single issue with the Juin Tech and, for me, they're better value than the Trp Hy Rd. I agree with Ugo though that pretty much all of them need a compressionless outer.

Mine seem a bit slow in the return, very spongy... I need to remove the pads and give them a clean to see if it's the piston or it's the cable... can't be bothered though. Without compressionless are neither bad nor good... they are there, indifferent.

Do you trust them? Would you do the Fred Whitton course with them?

I've recently started having problems with one of my Juin Techs, I've had it stick on a couple of times so I took it off and haven't had a chance to check what the problem might be but I suspect it's the piston.

bendertherobot

A few have reported that. Would I? No, I'd use the bike with rim brakes if it was dry or R685 if wet.

For every day use though I find them fine.

ugo.santalucia

bendertherobot wrote:

A few have reported that. Would I? No, I'd use the bike with rim brakes if it was dry or R685 if wet.

For every day use though I find them fine.

Likewise, they are on the commuter, which is a single speed, so unlikely to pick up much pace downhill...

kleinstroker

TRP Spyres properly set up are a joy to use. Just make sure cable tension is set right.

ugo.santalucia

kleinstroker wrote:

TRP Spyres properly set up are a joy to use. Just make sure cable tension is set right.

... although the allen key slot to adjust the pads could be better designed... very difficult to access the right end side when the wheel is on

apreading

Honestly, the amount of time you put into this and the hassle you seem to have had trying to avoid paying just a little bit more for proper Shimano/SRAM hydraulics - you would be better just ponying up and getting the real deal. My 105 hydraulics havent needed a moments thought, never mind any actual work or attention in the last year or so, probably 3000 miles. And I have no reason to think that they wont do the same again.

The only 'problem' I have had in that year was a couple of weeks ago when I nearly missed a turn on a Sportive and had to hastily signal and turm and my son nearly went into the back of me because his rim brakes couldnt brake fast enough.

And years with something like 20,000 miles on flat bar Boardman Hybrid before that with Avid Elixirs and other than pads they needed nothing either.

I wouldnt even think about doing any event on them, including Fred Whitton. No reason why not.

lostboysaint

Another vote for 105 hydraulics. I have never been impressed with any cable disc brakes and rim brakes, whilst great in the dry, are somewhat less than efficient in any other conditions.

I'm another rider that can stop effortlessly and wish others could as well!

ugo.santalucia

apreading wrote:

Honestly, the amount of time you put into this and the hassle you seem to have had trying to avoid paying just a little bit more for proper Shimano/SRAM hydraulics - you would be better just ponying up and getting the real deal. My 105 hydraulics havent needed a moments thought, never mind any actual work or attention in the last year or so, probably 3000 miles. And I have no reason to think that they wont do the same again.

The only 'problem' I have had in that year was a couple of weeks ago when I nearly missed a turn on a Sportive and had to hastily signal and turm and my son nearly went into the back of me because his rim brakes couldnt brake fast enough.

And years with something like 20,000 miles on flat bar Boardman Hybrid before that with Avid Elixirs and other than pads they needed nothing either.

I wouldnt even think about doing any event on them, including Fred Whitton. No reason why not.

You seem to forget that Shimano hydraulics have only been around 3 years and I have been on discs for 9. In addition, they only came in 11 speed (or more recently even 10 speed but incompatible with old ten speed), so that is a lot more money to spend, once you factor in derailleurs and chainset. Ideally I would like the brakes to be independent on how many sprockets you have.

Discs were an experiment over which I insisted a bit too long... in fairness I should have given up 2-3 years ago, but at the time I thought HyRD was not the finished product and something amazing was going to happen if I hanged on... which it didn't... and it won't.

apreading

Something amazing has come along - you just refuse to try it. You held on just to the point that the finished product arrived then decided you werent going to take that final step.

You could get a complete 4700 hydraulic disc groupset for around £350. Thats not a huge amount compared to how much do you spend on wheels and other stuff?

And you just bought a new rim brake bike with 5800, which isnt compatible with 5700 or earlier - that wasnt a compatibility problem for you? You just spent alot of money building a new bike - the difference in cost if you had built it with shimano hydraulics wouldnt have been much.

You seem to prefer revelling in the problem rather than fixing it!

meanredspider

ugo.santalucia wrote:

You seem to forget that Shimano hydraulics have only been around 3 years and I have been on discs for 9. In addition, they only came in 11 speed (or more recently even 10 speed but incompatible with old ten speed), so that is a lot more money to spend, once you factor in derailleurs and chainset. Ideally I would like the brakes to be independent on how many sprockets you have.

Discs were an experiment over which I insisted a bit too long... in fairness I should have given up 2-3 years ago, but at the time I thought HyRD was not the finished product and something amazing was going to happen if I hanged on... which it didn't... and it won't.

I think the 9-year bit is a red herring. It could be 59 years - but discs haven't properly been on road bikes for much more than 6 years and, even then, not really moved forward from BB7s until about 4 years ago if that. Rather than giving up 2-3 years ago, you shouldn't have started until 3-5 years later. Hydraulics road discs are excellent and I'm confident that they'll become the de facto solution in 3-5 years from now when prices will be on a par with cable rims.

ugo.santalucia

apreading wrote:

And you just bought a new rim brake bike with 5800, which isnt compatible with 5700 or earlier!

You seem to be talking about my purchases without much information. I bought a pair of 5800 brakes, the rest comes from the previous bike and it's 5700 STI, a CX 10 speed chainset, a front 5700 derailleur and a rear XT... all perfectly compatible.

I don't know what you are on about to be honest. I stated my opinions.

As for 350 for a 4700 hydro groupset... maybe you are right... but when I looked a few months back it was nearly 400 for the STI + calipers only

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

You seem to forget that Shimano hydraulics have only been around 3 years and I have been on discs for 9. In addition, they only came in 11 speed (or more recently even 10 speed but incompatible with old ten speed), so that is a lot more money to spend, once you factor in derailleurs and chainset. Ideally I would like the brakes to be independent on how many sprockets you have.

Discs were an experiment over which I insisted a bit too long... in fairness I should have given up 2-3 years ago, but at the time I thought HyRD was not the finished product and something amazing was going to happen if I hanged on... which it didn't... and it won't.

I think the 9-year bit is a red herring. It could be 59 years - but discs haven't properly been on road bikes for much more than 6 years and, even then, not really moved forward from BB7s until about 4 years ago if that. Rather than giving up 2-3 years ago, you shouldn't have started until 3-5 years later. Hydraulics road discs are excellent and I'm confident that they'll become the de facto solution in 3-5 years from now when prices will be on a par with cable rims.

It is possible I got the timing wrong and it is possible Specialized are right and everybody will go hydro discs... as well as not.
Talking to the owner of a shop in Italy... and I am talking about a shop with hundreds of expensive bikes on the floor, not a tiny boutique with ten bikes like over here, he said he has seen a bit of interest in discs over the past couple of years, but now people want road bikes with rim brakes again and says sales have dipped. If you hardly ever go out in the rain, why would you want them?
It will be a case of discs on the winter bike and rim brakes on the best bike I believe. The extra weight issue is a big one for a lot of people.

Anyway, horses for courses.

meanredspider

ugo.santalucia wrote:

It is possible I got the timing wrong and it is possible Specialized are right and everybody will go hydro discs... as well as not.
Talking to the owner of a shop in Italy... and I am talking about a shop with hundreds of expensive bikes on the floor, not a tiny boutique with ten bikes like over here, he said he has seen a bit of interest in discs over the past couple of years, but now people want road bikes with rim brakes again and says sales have dipped. If you hardly ever go out in the rain, why would you want them?
It will be a case of discs on the winter bike and rim brakes on the best bike I believe. The extra weight issue is a big one for a lot of people.

Anyway, horses for courses.

Yup - I expect Italy to be one of the last places on Earth to adopt discs and not because it might not rain much there. For entirely different reasons, I don't expect them to be a big hit in NL. It has also tended to be a bottom-up trend with the high-end models being some of the last to offer a disc option. Lots of reasons for that not least of all that, if you've a couple of spare kgs around the middle, you're wasting (waisting?) your money spending on ultra-light components. And, as I've always said, if you're the weight of an anorexic schoolgirl, you don't need good brakes of any sort.

The weight will only go in one direction - it will just take time to catch up with the many years of caliper tech development. I see no reason why the hydraulic lines couldn't become part of the structure of the bike frame, for instance - performing more than one task. And, if you designed a road bike brifter from scratch that didn't need to pull cables to operate gears and brakes, I doubt very much it would look like a conventional brifter: why would it?

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

It is possible I got the timing wrong and it is possible Specialized are right and everybody will go hydro discs... as well as not.
Talking to the owner of a shop in Italy... and I am talking about a shop with hundreds of expensive bikes on the floor, not a tiny boutique with ten bikes like over here, he said he has seen a bit of interest in discs over the past couple of years, but now people want road bikes with rim brakes again and says sales have dipped. If you hardly ever go out in the rain, why would you want them?
It will be a case of discs on the winter bike and rim brakes on the best bike I believe. The extra weight issue is a big one for a lot of people.

Anyway, horses for courses.

Yup - I expect Italy to be one of the last places on Earth to adopt discs and not because it might not rain much there. For entirely different reasons, I don't expect them to be a big hit in NL. It has also tended to be a bottom-up trend with the high-end models being some of the last to offer a disc option. Lots of reasons for that not least of all that, if you've a couple of spare kgs around the middle, you're wasting (waisting?) your money spending on ultra-light components. And, as I've always said, if you're the weight of an anorexic schoolgirl, you don't need good brakes of any sort.

The weight will only go in one direction - it will just take time to catch up with the many years of caliper tech development. I see no reason why the hydraulic lines couldn't become part of the structure of the bike frame, for instance - performing more than one task. And, if you designed a road bike brifter from scratch that didn't need to pull cables to operate gears and brakes, I doubt very much it would look like a conventional brifter: why would it?

Ultimately I think when the Tour de France stars will battle it out on disc braked bikes, then I can see becoming mainstream among the roadies. WIll it happen? My guess is not in the immediate future. I was at the Etape du Dales over the weekend... I'd say fewer than one in ten riders had discs (I was one). Yet, main manufacturers are now offering a nearly 1:1 number of rim/discs bikes

bendertherobot

ugo.santalucia wrote:

apreading wrote:

Honestly, the amount of time you put into this and the hassle you seem to have had trying to avoid paying just a little bit more for proper Shimano/SRAM hydraulics - you would be better just ponying up and getting the real deal. My 105 hydraulics havent needed a moments thought, never mind any actual work or attention in the last year or so, probably 3000 miles. And I have no reason to think that they wont do the same again.

The only 'problem' I have had in that year was a couple of weeks ago when I nearly missed a turn on a Sportive and had to hastily signal and turm and my son nearly went into the back of me because his rim brakes couldnt brake fast enough.

And years with something like 20,000 miles on flat bar Boardman Hybrid before that with Avid Elixirs and other than pads they needed nothing either.

I wouldnt even think about doing any event on them, including Fred Whitton. No reason why not.

You seem to forget that Shimano hydraulics have only been around 3 years and I have been on discs for 9. In addition, they only came in 11 speed (or more recently even 10 speed but incompatible with old ten speed), so that is a lot more money to spend, once you factor in derailleurs and chainset. Ideally I would like the brakes to be independent on how many sprockets you have.

Discs were an experiment over which I insisted a bit too long... in fairness I should have given up 2-3 years ago, but at the time I thought HyRD was not the finished product and something amazing was going to happen if I hanged on... which it didn't... and it won't.

If Trp nicked the adjuster from the Juin Tech and could incorporate that into the self centering system, that would be a pretty darn good brake

meanredspider

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Ultimately I think when the Tour de France stars will battle it out on disc braked bikes, then I can see becoming mainstream among the roadies. WIll it happen? My guess is not in the immediate future. I was at the Etape du Dales over the weekend... I'd say fewer than one in ten riders had discs (I was one). Yet, main manufacturers are now offering a nearly 1:1 number of rim/discs bikes

I think you probably over-estimate the influence of TdF on the market. Apart from a little bit on here, I hear no-one discussing TdF bikes anywhere amongst my cycling community. It'll be on price and availability and word-of-mouth. It'll be a slow process simply because people don't change their bikes that often. I don't remember what year I did London to Edinburgh Rat Race Road Trip - 4 years ago? What I do know is that I was probably the only rider on discs. I was asked multiple times a day if the Volagi was a CX bike. For that to change to near 1:10 I'd say was a pretty good change especially as I do believe that this is a bottom-up change and I anticipate that the EdD is one for the more committed riders in general.

How often do we think average riders change their "best" bike: every 4-5 years maybe? I think it'll be at least 5 years before we see even a 50:50 split on the roads - probably nearer 10 years: after all, there's 100's of thousands of rim-braked bikes in circulation- they aren't going to be binned overnight. I'm pretty sure I'll still be riding my Foil in 3-4 years time and I anticipate my lads will still be riding theirs too. What will be interesting to see is the proportion of new bikes - especially as hydro moves down the groupset ranges.

meanredspider

Just as an aside, I notice that bars and stems are becoming more available that suit integrating Di2 properly (cables run internally and "hidden" junction box) - Shimano have been very slow at that. I hope integrating hydraulics doesn't take so long - after all, one of the advantages of both Di2 and hydraulics is that you don't need the large radius smooth curves that cables do. And you should also be able to fit and forget.