I'm Shunning discs.

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  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,683
    I have to agree with MRS on this, at least for people around here. Not the really serious cycling fans perhaps, but the everyday folks that have one bike for everyday use and occasional weekend rides.
    My Parabox converter has been great, after initial faffing as I bought a second hand unit it's been left forgotten for two years until I had to fit pads. It is a bit ugly, but no worse than a di2 unit under the stem. The short cable run means compressionless is unnecessary and dirt is not an issue. It's a better compromise than hy-rd type calipers in my opinion.
    Kinesis Pro6
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  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,309
    Veronese68 wrote:
    I have to agree with MRS on this, at least for people around here. Not the really serious cycling fans perhaps, but the everyday folks that have one bike for everyday use and occasional weekend rides.
    My Parabox converter has been great, after initial faffing as I bought a second hand unit it's been left forgotten for two years until I had to fit pads. It is a bit ugly, but no worse than a di2 unit under the stem. The short cable run means compressionless is unnecessary and dirt is not an issue. It's a better compromise than hy-rd type calipers in my opinion.

    Does the Parabox still exist? Hope makes something similar, but it's in the Shimano Hydro range price wise and of course it's a chunk and it's ugly.

    I was tempted by the TRP Hylex for my single speed at the time, but I got put off by the fact that not only you spend 200 pounds, but then you have to spend another X amount to buy the bits necessary to shorten the brake line... and of course such TRP spares are impossible to find. Apparently the design of the brake levers was odd too, meaning a shorter stem might have been required...

    Again, a lot of faff... and note I haven't even gone into the axle standards and mount type incompatibility... :wink:
    left the forum March 2023
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,309
    meanredspider wrote:

    I think you probably over-estimate the influence of TdF on the market.

    SO how do you explain Canyon success? How do you explain the thousands of Dogma on the roads or the fact that Specialized is the best seller in the mid/high price point and also the biggest spender in the PRO Tour?

    Is it a case that brands that used to be very popular when they sponsored major PRO teams have now completely disappeared? Seen any Time recently? But a lot of BMC... not as many Look as in the past. I cycled 3 weeks in Italy without seeing a single Colnago. Remember the days of the Orbea? Now they're all Merida
    10-15 years ago every other bike was a Madone, just a coincidence? They are all on Ebay now, there are dozens of them only from UK sellers, all for 500 quid
    left the forum March 2023
  • meanredspider
    meanredspider Posts: 12,337
    Put it this way - I know of no-one who buys Alpecin shampoo or has a Bora extractor.

    Of course the tour bikes are popular because only an idiot marketing company would sponsor a team and then not put lots of money into parallel marketing (like getting reviews in the press). And, by definition, the companies doing well have the budget to market bikes. Canyon, for instance, does well because it markets direct to consumers.
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,309
    meanredspider wrote:
    Canyon, for instance, does well because it markets direct to consumers.

    So do Rose, Ribble, Dolan, Planet X and many others... but people want Canyon, when they spend money on their best bike.
    My point is that there are big brands with large marketing budgets that do less well because their bikes are not currently ridden by any top team... Look springs to mind... haven't seen a Look in ages... yet, rewind a few years, they were the first to bring Carbon fibre in the Peloton and generally very innovative and cutting edge products... BUT Sagan rides A Specialized, Froome rides a Dogma, Quintana rides a Canyon (I think)... nobody who is somebody rides a Look
    left the forum March 2023
  • meanredspider
    meanredspider Posts: 12,337
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    meanredspider wrote:
    Canyon, for instance, does well because it markets direct to consumers.

    So do Rose, Ribble, Dolan, Planet X and many others... but people want Canyon, when they spend money on their best bike.
    My point is that there are big brands with large marketing budgets that do less well because their bikes are not currently ridden by any top team... Look springs to mind... haven't seen a Look in ages... yet, rewind a few years, they were the first to bring Carbon fibre in the Peloton and generally very innovative and cutting edge products... BUT Sagan rides A Specialized, Froome rides a Dogma, Quintana rides a Canyon (I think)... nobody who is somebody rides a Look

    And nobody washes their hair in Alpecin.

    I've never seen a Look. Ever. I have seen loads of Stevens bikes in NL (every other rider seemed to be on one). The point being that of course some big brands are in TdF (in the same way that Ferrari are in F1) and you can try to make links from one to the other but I think it's more coincidental than you make out. Specialized sell a lot of bikes because they're a big company. So do Giant. And Scott. And Pinarello. But we're missing the point - the top-end isn't where disc brakes are making the biggest inroads. Disc brakes have hardly appeared in the Pro peleton and yet, by your own observation, up to 10% are riding them. What percentage of riders have even changed their bike in the last 2 years? 20% tops?

    There's clearly a halo effect but it's not that big. Hell, I bought a Scott team issue without even knowing (or caring) who Orica Greenedge were...
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,309
    meanredspider wrote:
    and you can try to make links from one to the other but I think it's more coincidental than you make out.

    So all the Dogma in the UK are coincidental... nothing to do with team Sky... and all those Madone had nothing to do with Armstrong of course.
    And in the 80s when every other bike in mainland Europe was a Look had nothing to do with Hinault/Fignon/Lemond of course.

    As I said, I don't think discs are going to hit the premium market significantly until top riders begin to actually use them. So far we have seen Boonen winning a race nobody knows about and ditching the disc bike on the races that mattered.

    More to the point... I think compressionless outer and rim brakes is not a good combo... very wooden feel. I had a length and used it for the front 5800 and while it brakes very well, it is a bit on/off... think I'll have to find some old style spongy outer in the spares box... :lol:

    Other than that, PR a go go... :wink:
    left the forum March 2023
  • meanredspider
    meanredspider Posts: 12,337
    The only guy I know who rode a top-end Madone absolutely hated Armstrong :wink: And pretty much all Treks were called Madone this or that.

    Take the Dogma, though. So if you borrowed a bike at a Rapha Clubhouse or used one on their holidays, it was a Dogma. And that's kinda my point - if you're sponsoring a team, you go all-out to take advantage of it. I had two friends who independently rode Dogmas who have absolutely no interest in the pro peleton. So it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg thing with these bikes. It clearly did Look not good in the long run. Yet Stevens are everywhere without Pro peleton sponsorship ever. They'll probably get enough spare cash to sponsor a team then everyone with say that all the Stevens are due to the TdF....

    Ha - yes, you need to build back in all that sponginess. Didn't someone make some hydraulic rim brakes? I bet they were "exciting" - nothing, nothing, nothing .... and over the bars...
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,309
    meanredspider wrote:

    Ha - yes, you need to build back in all that sponginess. Didn't someone make some hydraulic rim brakes? I bet they were "exciting" - nothing, nothing, nothing .... and over the bars...

    In fairness my wife's hydro XT are like that... one has to learn how to use them, as they lock the rotor like it was nothing... they are meant to go with a suspension fork and her bike has no suspension
    left the forum March 2023
  • peat
    peat Posts: 1,242
    meanredspider wrote:
    Didn't someone make some hydraulic rim brakes?

    Magura did them for MTB's in the late 90's early 00's. Bitey.
  • meanredspider
    meanredspider Posts: 12,337
    edited May 2017
    Peat wrote:
    meanredspider wrote:
    Didn't someone make some hydraulic rim brakes?

    Magura did them for MTB's in the late 90's early 00's. Bitey.

    I thought someone (SRAM?) made some for road use a couple of years ago. Will research.

    ETA - http://road.cc/content/news/88871-tour-tech-2013-cav’s-sram-hydraulic-brakes-video

    ETA2 - https://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/sram-red-22-hydraulic-rim-brake-brakeshift-lever-combination/aid:794280?channable=e8467.Nzk0Mjgw&gclid=Cj0KEQjw9YTJBRD0vKClruOsuOwBEiQAGkQjP3cf2DBFQ7oMhB2GkS5AXdxNOfQ7fTadtMAln08OOm0aAp4w8P8HAQ

    Not a great hit, I guess?
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • kajjal
    kajjal Posts: 3,380
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    meanredspider wrote:

    Ha - yes, you need to build back in all that sponginess. Didn't someone make some hydraulic rim brakes? I bet they were "exciting" - nothing, nothing, nothing .... and over the bars...

    In fairness my wife's hydro XT are like that... one has to learn how to use them, as they lock the rotor like it was nothing... they are meant to go with a suspension fork and her bike has no suspension

    I used to find that going from my XT braked mountain bike to my previous road bike with rim brakes and back. In the autumn I switch to my road bike and the rim brakes felt really wooden and lacking in power. In the spring when it dried out I switched back to my mountain had to be careful for a few minutes as the brakes are a lot more powerful. My current road bike has r685 brakes which are based on XT mountain bike brakes so its all good for me now.

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