Poo tin... Put@in...

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  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    "Everyone "
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    kingstongraham said:

    "Everyone "

    Doesn't ring true does it as several, myself included. have said we used to vote for them. They have just morphed into some kind of parody due to being overrun by the right wing nutters.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,325
    ballysmate said:

    ... Their running costs are still being financed by gas exports to Europe...

    I said from the start that this would be the most meaningful strike on Putin.
    Europe is not fully committed until that supply is cut. It will hurt but needs to be done.

    PS - By Europe I do not mean the EU and it will include the UK.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,345
    First.Aspect said:

    Can we move on from this domestic politics sh!t please? Debate it one one of the many other threads dedicated to the topic, or on here when the dust has settle, in say 4 years' time?


    Too late to do anything about it.
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    pblakeney said:

    ballysmate said:

    ... Their running costs are still being financed by gas exports to Europe...

    I said from the start that this would be the most meaningful strike on Putin.
    Europe is not fully committed until that supply is cut. It will hurt but needs to be done.

    PS - By Europe I do not mean the EU and it will include the UK.
    Totally agree. German commerce minister stillsays he would vote against any ban on the import of Russian gas.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited March 2022
    Worth noting on the rumours they're getting close to a ban on Russian energy exports, or at least oil, price of crude has gone *crazy*. Well over $125 a barrel.

    Corona restricted supply chains, energy shortages, war, it's all a recipe for a recession.
    _
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    That's the heart of the sanctions story, isn't it? Easy to put sanctions on that don't much affect your own people.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    First.Aspect said:

    Can we move on from this domestic politics sh!t please? Debate it one one of the many other threads dedicated to the topic, or on here when the dust has settle, in say 4 years' time?

    Already made that appeal yesterday, I have now given up!
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    kingstongraham said:

    That's the heart of the sanctions story, isn't it? Easy to put sanctions on that don't much affect your own people.

    Quite agree. Gas sanctions will hit some more than others, eg Germany. But as Blakey says, they are the most meaningful. We have to accept whatever pain they bring as it is nothing compared to the suffering in Ukraine.

    On the subject of Germany, for decades they have got by not paying their share for defence and apologists for them have said that it was understandable because they were bastards in the past.
    Now they need to exert economic pressure as a weapon of defence and they reluctant to that as well.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    rick_chasey said:

    Worth noting on the rumours they're getting close to a ban on Russian energy exports, or at least oil, price of crude has gone *crazy*. Well over $125 a barrel.

    Corona restricted supply chains, energy shortages, war, it's all a recipe for a recession.

    I'm not sure if it is related or not but fuel at my local station went up 10p a litre literally overnight. They were up at 170p a litre, my local supermarket was still at 150p a litre so I thought it might be crass profiteering but then saw several other petrol stations in Cardiff yesterday at the same price. That was motorway prices on Thursday afternoon. As I mentioned last week, it will be a test of the resolve of those of us in cushy peaceful countries how long it lasts before people start protesting about how much this is all costing them. We aren't very good at this sharing the pain thing.
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,605
    First.Aspect said:

    Can we move on from this domestic politics sh!t please? Debate it one one of the many other threads dedicated to the topic, or on here when the dust has settle, in say 4 years' time?

    Anyone want to talk about no fly zones?
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    Jezyboy said:

    First.Aspect said:

    Can we move on from this domestic politics sh!t please? Debate it one one of the many other threads dedicated to the topic, or on here when the dust has settle, in say 4 years' time?

    Anyone want to talk about no fly zones?
    Not unless you want to declare war on Russia.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    edited March 2022
    Pross said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Worth noting on the rumours they're getting close to a ban on Russian energy exports, or at least oil, price of crude has gone *crazy*. Well over $125 a barrel.

    Corona restricted supply chains, energy shortages, war, it's all a recipe for a recession.

    I'm not sure if it is related or not but fuel at my local station went up 10p a litre literally overnight. They were up at 170p a litre, my local supermarket was still at 150p a litre so I thought it might be crass profiteering but then saw several other petrol stations in Cardiff yesterday at the same price. That was motorway prices on Thursday afternoon. As I mentioned last week, it will be a test of the resolve of those of us in cushy peaceful countries how long it lasts before people start protesting about how much this is all costing them. We aren't very good at this sharing the pain thing.
    Maybe we should look at sucking up higher fuel prices as making a donation to the Ukrainian war effort?
    Then when it's fill up time, it's just a couple of quid put into a charity box.


    Can I also take the time to make a further appeal for a ceasefire to end the political trench warfare taking place in this thread?
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • AndyG785
    AndyG785 Posts: 20
    ballysmate said:

    pblakeney said:

    ballysmate said:

    ... Their running costs are still being financed by gas exports to Europe...

    I said from the start that this would be the most meaningful strike on Putin.
    Europe is not fully committed until that supply is cut. It will hurt but needs to be done.

    PS - By Europe I do not mean the EU and it will include the UK.
    Totally agree. German commerce minister still says he would vote against any ban on the import of Russian gas.
    If europe banned Russian gas, the costs to the uk would be huge, as we pay the market price.

    Putin isn't just waging a military war, its an economic and a human one, in that europe inc the UK will have to absorb millions of refugees.

    He isn't going to stop at Ukraine either, success here, will bolster his popularity at home and he will continue Westwards.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    ballysmate said:

    kingstongraham said:

    That's the heart of the sanctions story, isn't it? Easy to put sanctions on that don't much affect your own people.

    Quite agree. Gas sanctions will hit some more than others, eg Germany. But as Blakey says, they are the most meaningful. We have to accept whatever pain they bring as it is nothing compared to the suffering in Ukraine.

    On the subject of Germany, for decades they have got by not paying their share for defence and apologists for them have said that it was understandable because they were bastards in the past.
    Now they need to exert economic pressure as a weapon of defence and they reluctant to that as well.
    German sanctions on oil and gas from Russia would surely increase our prices nearly as much.

  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,325
    AndyG785 said:

    ballysmate said:

    pblakeney said:

    ballysmate said:

    ... Their running costs are still being financed by gas exports to Europe...

    I said from the start that this would be the most meaningful strike on Putin.
    Europe is not fully committed until that supply is cut. It will hurt but needs to be done.

    PS - By Europe I do not mean the EU and it will include the UK.
    Totally agree. German commerce minister still says he would vote against any ban on the import of Russian gas.
    If europe banned Russian gas, the costs to the uk would be huge, as we pay the market price.

    Putin isn't just waging a military war, its an economic and a human one, in that europe inc the UK will have to absorb millions of refugees.

    He isn't going to stop at Ukraine either, success here, will bolster his popularity at home and he will continue Westwards.
    War is expensive and a massive inconvenience.
    Who knew?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    AndyG785 said:

    ballysmate said:

    pblakeney said:

    ballysmate said:

    ... Their running costs are still being financed by gas exports to Europe...

    I said from the start that this would be the most meaningful strike on Putin.
    Europe is not fully committed until that supply is cut. It will hurt but needs to be done.

    PS - By Europe I do not mean the EU and it will include the UK.
    Totally agree. German commerce minister still says he would vote against any ban on the import of Russian gas.
    If europe banned Russian gas, the costs to the uk would be huge, as we pay the market price.

    Putin isn't just waging a military war, its an economic and a human one, in that europe inc the UK will have to absorb millions of refugees.

    He isn't going to stop at Ukraine either, success here, will bolster his popularity at home and he will continue Westwards.
    Of course the cost would be huge. A price we have to pay.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    kingstongraham said:

    ballysmate said:

    kingstongraham said:

    That's the heart of the sanctions story, isn't it? Easy to put sanctions on that don't much affect your own people.

    Quite agree. Gas sanctions will hit some more than others, eg Germany. But as Blakey says, they are the most meaningful. We have to accept whatever pain they bring as it is nothing compared to the suffering in Ukraine.

    On the subject of Germany, for decades they have got by not paying their share for defence and apologists for them have said that it was understandable because they were bastards in the past.
    Now they need to exert economic pressure as a weapon of defence and they reluctant to that as well.
    German sanctions on oil and gas from Russia would surely increase our prices nearly as much.


    And?
  • AndyG785
    AndyG785 Posts: 20
    ballysmate said:




    Could HMG do more about the Russian oligarchs? Of course they could and should.
    Could we take in more refugees? Of course we should.
    I have not said otherwise. These are legitimate criticisms of the government.

    To borrow your football analogy. The Tories are the Cake Stop equivalent of Man Utd. Everyone on here hates them, often without any objectivity.

    Objectivity went out the window on here some time ago and possibly why the number of posters has fallen over the last couple of years.

    Objectivity seems to be in short supply elsewhere as well. Russian vodka, fish and other products have been withdrawn from sale, even though the producers have already been paid. A symbolic but ultimately empty gesture.
    Meanwhile tanks and artillery pieces roll into Ukraine having been built on the back of gas exports to Germany and Italy. Their running costs are still being financed by gas exports to Europe.

    Perhaps the Russians could borrow from the Brexit campaign and put a slogan on the side of their tanks.
    "Sponsored by Italy"

    You talk of objectivity but would you be quite so keen on cutting gas imports if the UK relied on 100% Russian gas?

    Just as we aren't quite so keen on sanctioning Russians as it will impact the UK's property market.

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Bit of reporting this morning in various outlets which are mildly self congratulatory about the sheer quantity of western weapons that have not only been delivered but used by the Ukrainian army, apparently with really effective results.

    It is remarkable that the airspace is still very much contested (though I have seen some reports of Ukrainian soldiers in the east complaining they have no air cover, so perhaps it is more localised than the reports the US defence ministry are offering).
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Anyway, the chat about energy sanctions will be moot soon, judging by the market reaction to the rumours - looks like they're gonna happen and we'll all feel it. Good job we're almost out of winter.
    _
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    AndyG785 said:

    ballysmate said:




    Could HMG do more about the Russian oligarchs? Of course they could and should.
    Could we take in more refugees? Of course we should.
    I have not said otherwise. These are legitimate criticisms of the government.

    To borrow your football analogy. The Tories are the Cake Stop equivalent of Man Utd. Everyone on here hates them, often without any objectivity.

    Objectivity went out the window on here some time ago and possibly why the number of posters has fallen over the last couple of years.

    Objectivity seems to be in short supply elsewhere as well. Russian vodka, fish and other products have been withdrawn from sale, even though the producers have already been paid. A symbolic but ultimately empty gesture.
    Meanwhile tanks and artillery pieces roll into Ukraine having been built on the back of gas exports to Germany and Italy. Their running costs are still being financed by gas exports to Europe.

    Perhaps the Russians could borrow from the Brexit campaign and put a slogan on the side of their tanks.
    "Sponsored by Italy"

    You talk of objectivity but would you be quite so keen on cutting gas imports if the UK relied on 100% Russian gas?

    Just as we aren't quite so keen on sanctioning Russians as it will impact the UK's property market.


    It is not a matter of being keen or not. It is unfortunately a necessity. If I can assume that you agree that declaring war on Russia is not an option, we have to use the weapons we have to wage economic war.
    Seizing the odd yacht and palatial house is pretty meaningless if you are supplying your enemy with billions of euros/dollars to finance their war effort.

    "Sponsored by Italy"
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    ballysmate said:

    kingstongraham said:

    ballysmate said:

    kingstongraham said:

    That's the heart of the sanctions story, isn't it? Easy to put sanctions on that don't much affect your own people.

    Quite agree. Gas sanctions will hit some more than others, eg Germany. But as Blakey says, they are the most meaningful. We have to accept whatever pain they bring as it is nothing compared to the suffering in Ukraine.

    On the subject of Germany, for decades they have got by not paying their share for defence and apologists for them have said that it was understandable because they were bastards in the past.
    Now they need to exert economic pressure as a weapon of defence and they reluctant to that as well.
    German sanctions on oil and gas from Russia would surely increase our prices nearly as much.


    And?
    And I can take the hit OK, but support for the people in the UK who are already going to struggle with prices going up would need to increase massively if we're going to do that.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,167
    I don't know enough about the energy markets to know whether, or the extent to which, reliance on Russian gas can be ameliorated over the Spring and Summer. You would have thought that once the market adjusts, the prices should only reflect Russia's contribution to it, plus additional shipping costs?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    First.Aspect said:

    I don't know enough about the energy markets to know whether, or the extent to which, reliance on Russian gas can be ameliorated over the Spring and Summer. You would have thought that once the market adjusts, the prices should only reflect Russia's contribution to it, plus additional shipping costs?

    I can move it to the other thread (as I have tried) but there is an infrastructure challenge.

    It's not as simple as just importing it in from elsewhere.
    _
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    kingstongraham said:

    ballysmate said:

    kingstongraham said:

    ballysmate said:

    kingstongraham said:

    That's the heart of the sanctions story, isn't it? Easy to put sanctions on that don't much affect your own people.

    Quite agree. Gas sanctions will hit some more than others, eg Germany. But as Blakey says, they are the most meaningful. We have to accept whatever pain they bring as it is nothing compared to the suffering in Ukraine.

    On the subject of Germany, for decades they have got by not paying their share for defence and apologists for them have said that it was understandable because they were bastards in the past.
    Now they need to exert economic pressure as a weapon of defence and they reluctant to that as well.
    German sanctions on oil and gas from Russia would surely increase our prices nearly as much.


    And?
    And I can take the hit OK, but support for the people in the UK who are already going to struggle with prices going up would need to increase massively if we're going to do that.

    So when would you turn off the tap for Russian gas? When they get to Kyiv? The Polish border? German border? The Channel? Marching up The Thames?
    We have to do it now.
  • ballysmate
    ballysmate Posts: 15,930
    kingstongraham said:

    ballysmate said:

    kingstongraham said:

    ballysmate said:

    kingstongraham said:

    That's the heart of the sanctions story, isn't it? Easy to put sanctions on that don't much affect your own people.

    Quite agree. Gas sanctions will hit some more than others, eg Germany. But as Blakey says, they are the most meaningful. We have to accept whatever pain they bring as it is nothing compared to the suffering in Ukraine.

    On the subject of Germany, for decades they have got by not paying their share for defence and apologists for them have said that it was understandable because they were bastards in the past.
    Now they need to exert economic pressure as a weapon of defence and they reluctant to that as well.
    German sanctions on oil and gas from Russia would surely increase our prices nearly as much.


    And?
    And I can take the hit OK, but support for the people in the UK who are already going to struggle with prices going up would need to increase massively if we're going to do that.

    This is not intended to be having a pop at KG, I am just using his post.

    To all the people on social meedja with their "We stand with Ukeraine" etc, this is what standing with Ukraine actually means. We may have to suffer considerable discomfort/hardship to make any meaningful difference.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    ballysmate said:

    kingstongraham said:

    ballysmate said:

    kingstongraham said:

    ballysmate said:

    kingstongraham said:

    That's the heart of the sanctions story, isn't it? Easy to put sanctions on that don't much affect your own people.

    Quite agree. Gas sanctions will hit some more than others, eg Germany. But as Blakey says, they are the most meaningful. We have to accept whatever pain they bring as it is nothing compared to the suffering in Ukraine.

    On the subject of Germany, for decades they have got by not paying their share for defence and apologists for them have said that it was understandable because they were bastards in the past.
    Now they need to exert economic pressure as a weapon of defence and they reluctant to that as well.
    German sanctions on oil and gas from Russia would surely increase our prices nearly as much.


    And?
    And I can take the hit OK, but support for the people in the UK who are already going to struggle with prices going up would need to increase massively if we're going to do that.

    So when would you turn off the tap for Russian gas? When they get to Kyiv? The Polish border? German border? The Channel? Marching up The Thames?
    We have to do it now.
    Now. But it has to put in train a series of difficult measures.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    ballysmate said:

    kingstongraham said:

    ballysmate said:

    kingstongraham said:

    ballysmate said:

    kingstongraham said:

    That's the heart of the sanctions story, isn't it? Easy to put sanctions on that don't much affect your own people.

    Quite agree. Gas sanctions will hit some more than others, eg Germany. But as Blakey says, they are the most meaningful. We have to accept whatever pain they bring as it is nothing compared to the suffering in Ukraine.

    On the subject of Germany, for decades they have got by not paying their share for defence and apologists for them have said that it was understandable because they were bastards in the past.
    Now they need to exert economic pressure as a weapon of defence and they reluctant to that as well.
    German sanctions on oil and gas from Russia would surely increase our prices nearly as much.


    And?
    And I can take the hit OK, but support for the people in the UK who are already going to struggle with prices going up would need to increase massively if we're going to do that.

    So when would you turn off the tap for Russian gas? When they get to Kyiv? The Polish border? German border? The Channel? Marching up The Thames?
    We have to do it now.
    I find it amusing you are quick to contextualise the British response, but when it comes to the German response it's shooting from the hip, no nuance.
    _

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