Poo tin... Put@in...
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Have you lot really got nothing better to do than sit around arguing on here all day?1
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Good. We can agree that making tenuous connections within someone else's posts is silly.rick_chasey said:
That was who I was referring to, not people who go to benidorm, ffs.pblakeney said:
Just maybe Bally is making the point that enthusiasm is irrelevant as we are all soft.rick_chasey said:
OK. SC refers to people who life "hand to mouth" and Bally responds to that.pblakeney said:Rick regards people who go to Benidorm as poor.
It has been mentioned on here before that we are not representative of the general population but it does need saying that the majority of people live hand to mouth. In a months time they could find their unavoidable costs (power, NI, Council Tax, travel) increasing by £1-200 a month. I am not convinced these people will share the enthusiasm for paying the price of punishing Putin
You don't think people who live hand-to-mouth are poor?
Obviously people living hand-to-mouth are poor. Have I indicated otherwise?
You weren't talking about Benidorm, Bally wasn't talking about the poor.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.1 -
What does that look like? I mean most of us can probably cut a couple of hundred from our monthly budgets to pay for energy if we need to, or buy cheaper options at the supermarket. But what do you expect the large number of people who really are already up against it each month to do?pblakeney said:
Yes, the British public collectively.rick_chasey said:
The British public collectively?pblakeney said:
That is a statement of fact.rick_chasey said:
Because Britain has a large working poor who literally cannot afford the incoming prices.shirley_basso said:Bally's exact words
"Putin is right, people in the west are soft.
During covid for instance, some people viewed the fact that they couldn't get a week drinking and fighting in Benidorm as being a price too high."
I don't know how you read 'poor' into that. If anything, he's talking about the middle classes.
The people who can't afford it almost certainly won't support them and you can't blame them.
What are we going to do about this inevitability?
This is going to impact us all and it is up to us* to get through it.
*I'd like to think the government would do it but we know that is not the case so we all have to muck in. Alternative being standing aside thinking I'm all right. This will be a time for action not debating. Unless someone gets Putin quick.
Telling them to muck in doesn't really cut it. Close your eyes and think of England chaps.- Genesis Croix de Fer
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Computer regularly loading stuff.joe2019 said:Have you lot really got nothing better to do than sit around arguing on here all day?
I could just twiddle my thumbs. Would be as productive.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
100s of millions in the west cannot afford that price and we have seen nothing yet & that could lead to the complete destabilisation of the West...a collapse of all we know, all this is in Putins game plan.ballysmate said:
Of course the cost would be huge. A price we have to pay.AndyG785 said:
If europe banned Russian gas, the costs to the uk would be huge, as we pay the market price.ballysmate said:
Totally agree. German commerce minister still says he would vote against any ban on the import of Russian gas.pblakeney said:
I said from the start that this would be the most meaningful strike on Putin.ballysmate said:... Their running costs are still being financed by gas exports to Europe...
Europe is not fully committed until that supply is cut. It will hurt but needs to be done.
PS - By Europe I do not mean the EU and it will include the UK.
Putin isn't just waging a military war, its an economic and a human one, in that europe inc the UK will have to absorb millions of refugees.
He isn't going to stop at Ukraine either, success here, will bolster his popularity at home and he will continue Westwards.
Imho the sooner we grasp the nettle of opposing him militarily the better, he will back down once we threaten military action, we are delaying the inevitable but until the US sees this, it won't happen, European nato countries simply do not have the collective will.
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On gas, its generally believed Russia has a war chest of $650 billion, he can survive for a very long time.
..and when he/Russia faces collapse at the hands of Western sanctions, what then? do you think he will go quietly to the table, say Sorry and withdraw his forces or strike out?
We need to threaten military action but at the same time offer him a face saving way out, probably now half of Ukraine, with Lviv the new Western leaning capital.
Of course, had we offered him far less than this pre invasion, none of this war would have happened.0 -
That is a massive assumption which I think is incorrect.AndyG785 said:On gas, its generally believed Russia has a war chest of $650 billion, he can survive for a very long time.
..and when he/Russia faces collapse at the hands of Western sanctions, what then? do you think he will go quietly to the table, say Sorry and withdraw his forces or strike out?
We need to threaten military action but at the same time offer him a face saving way out, probably now half of Ukraine, with Lviv the new Western leaning capital.
Of course, had we offered him far less than this pre invasion, none of this war would have happened.
My assumption is that he wants the whole of the Ukraine, then the whole of the USSR.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.1 -
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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As I said upthread war is expensive and massively inconvenient.pangolin said:
What does that look like? I mean most of us can probably cut a couple of hundred from our monthly budgets to pay for energy if we need to, or buy cheaper options at the supermarket. But what do you expect the large number of people who really are already up against it each month to do?pblakeney said:
Yes, the British public collectively.rick_chasey said:
The British public collectively?pblakeney said:
That is a statement of fact.rick_chasey said:
Because Britain has a large working poor who literally cannot afford the incoming prices.shirley_basso said:Bally's exact words
"Putin is right, people in the west are soft.
During covid for instance, some people viewed the fact that they couldn't get a week drinking and fighting in Benidorm as being a price too high."
I don't know how you read 'poor' into that. If anything, he's talking about the middle classes.
The people who can't afford it almost certainly won't support them and you can't blame them.
What are we going to do about this inevitability?
This is going to impact us all and it is up to us* to get through it.
*I'd like to think the government would do it but we know that is not the case so we all have to muck in. Alternative being standing aside thinking I'm all right. This will be a time for action not debating. Unless someone gets Putin quick.
Telling them to muck in doesn't really cut it. Close your eyes and think of England chaps.
We are in this like it or not. The consequences are coming like it or not.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.1 -
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We will never know but the fact is Putin took 10months to get 190k troops into the region, he could have done that in a few weeks.
If all he had ever wanted to was to invade Ukraine, why allow them so long to get ready for him?
I believe he thought we would offer him a neutral Ukraine/disputed regions but all we ever did was say "fuck off with your troops"0 -
I think Zelensky would and should take it however reluctantly. If it was honest.rick_chasey said:Ooof. What would you do if you’re Zelensky? Take it?
Do I trust it? Not a snowflakes chance in hell. Biggest issue is the first point. Indicates future problems.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I would in a heartbeat.rick_chasey said:Ooof. What would you do if you’re Zelensky? Take it?
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I'd want NATO above all else, I think.0
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I believe that is up to Ukraine, not us.AndyG785 said:
I believe he thought we would offer him a neutral Ukraine/disputed regions but all we ever did was say "censored off with your troops"
Easy for us to say "Go on then.".
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
This. It's a point I made last week, we saw with Covid that thinking of others has a short shelf-life in the UK once it starts impacting people directly. I suspect that the usual rabble rousers will start going on about how unfair it is that 'honest British workers' are feeling the effects of someone else's war and there will probably be references to the anticipated 'hordes' of refugees coming here and taking jobs as well.surrey_commuter said:It has been mentioned on here before that we are not representative of the general population but it does need saying that the majority of people live hand to mouth. In a months time they could find their unavoidable costs (power, NI, Council Tax, travel) increasing by £1-200 a month. I am not convinced these people will share the enthusiasm for paying the price of punishing Putin.
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I’d be thinking that, if accepted and honest then it’s over, we can start rebuilding. If it’s in bad faith then the case for further intervention becomes overwhelming. Which scares me, if I’m honest, but something has to give and Putin needs a way out.pblakeney said:
I think Zelensky would and should take it however reluctantly. If it was honest.rick_chasey said:Ooof. What would you do if you’re Zelensky? Take it?
Do I trust it? Not a snowflakes chance in hell. Biggest issue is the first point. Indicates future problems.0 -
History isn't with you on that, plenty of deals have been done to avoid/end conflict without the agreement of the participating countries.pblakeney said:
I believe that is up to Ukraine, not us.AndyG785 said:
I believe he thought we would offer him a neutral Ukraine/disputed regions but all we ever did was say "censored off with your troops"
Easy for us to say "Go on then.".
The greater good has to be considered, continued war in Ukraine isn't good for anyone.
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This is utter bilge.AndyG785 said:On gas, its generally believed Russia has a war chest of $650 billion, he can survive for a very long time.
..and when he/Russia faces collapse at the hands of Western sanctions, what then? do you think he will go quietly to the table, say Sorry and withdraw his forces or strike out?
We need to threaten military action but at the same time offer him a face saving way out, probably now half of Ukraine, with Lviv the new Western leaning capital.
Of course, had we offered him far less than this pre invasion, none of this war would have happened.
War chest assumed to be much less, on account of moat of it being in now frozen funds.
Also, what are they going to buy with it? Huawei phones, but that's about it.
Finally, appeasement is what got us here.1 -
If I took it I would want reassurances from the NATO countries that they would supply large amounts of defensive weaponry to prevent further 'special military operations' for the next bit of land Putin wants to control. I'd make a counter offer of referenda in those regions as at least then you can give them up as being the 'will of the people' (and they'll vote to go to Russia anyway I should think).pblakeney said:
I think Zelensky would and should take it however reluctantly. If it was honest.rick_chasey said:Ooof. What would you do if you’re Zelensky? Take it?
Do I trust it? Not a snowflakes chance in hell. Biggest issue is the first point. Indicates future problems.0 -
Central bank assets are that - they're not there to buy guns. There there to protect the currency.0
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I hope you are right.johngti said:
I’d be thinking that, if accepted and honest then it’s over, we can start rebuilding. If it’s in bad faith then the case for further intervention becomes overwhelming. Which scares me, if I’m honest, but something has to give and Putin needs a way out.pblakeney said:
I think Zelensky would and should take it however reluctantly. If it was honest.rick_chasey said:Ooof. What would you do if you’re Zelensky? Take it?
Do I trust it? Not a snowflakes chance in hell. Biggest issue is the first point. Indicates future problems.
I think you are wrong. Putin is not looking for a way out.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
AndyG785 said:
History isn't with you on that, plenty of deals have been done to avoid/end conflict without the agreement of the participating countries.pblakeney said:
I believe that is up to Ukraine, not us.AndyG785 said:
I believe he thought we would offer him a neutral Ukraine/disputed regions but all we ever did was say "censored off with your troops"
Easy for us to say "Go on then.".
The greater good has to be considered, continued war in Ukraine isn't good for anyone.
Such as? Did they include superpowers with megalomaniac leaders?
War is never good. I think we all agree on that.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Yalta, the west & ussr divided up europe, Stalin would def be classed as an unstable leader.pblakeney said:AndyG785 said:
History isn't with you on that, plenty of deals have been done to avoid/end conflict without the agreement of the participating countries.pblakeney said:
I believe that is up to Ukraine, not us.AndyG785 said:
I believe he thought we would offer him a neutral Ukraine/disputed regions but all we ever did was say "censored off with your troops"
Easy for us to say "Go on then.".
The greater good has to be considered, continued war in Ukraine isn't good for anyone.
Such as? Did they include superpowers with megalomaniac leaders?
War is never good. I think we all agree on that.
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I think there was a little bit of war involved there too.AndyG785 said:
Yalta, the west & ussr divided up europe, Stalin would def be classed as an unstable leader.pblakeney said:AndyG785 said:
History isn't with you on that, plenty of deals have been done to avoid/end conflict without the agreement of the participating countries.pblakeney said:
I believe that is up to Ukraine, not us.AndyG785 said:
I believe he thought we would offer him a neutral Ukraine/disputed regions but all we ever did was say "censored off with your troops"
Easy for us to say "Go on then.".
The greater good has to be considered, continued war in Ukraine isn't good for anyone.
Such as? Did they include superpowers with megalomaniac leaders?
War is never good. I think we all agree on that.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
An important part of the Crimea question is determining what its residents would like to do.0
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AndyG785 said:
On gas, its generally believed Russia has a war chest of $650 billion, he can survive for a very long time.
..and when he/Russia faces collapse at the hands of Western sanctions, what then? do you think he will go quietly to the table, say Sorry and withdraw his forces or strike out?
We need to threaten military action but at the same time offer him a face saving way out, probably now half of Ukraine, with Lviv the new Western leaning capital.
Of course, had we offered him far less than this pre invasion, none of this war would have happened.
For real?AndyG785 said:On gas, its generally believed Russia has a war chest of $650 billion, he can survive for a very long time.
..and when he/Russia faces collapse at the hands of Western sanctions, what then? do you think he will go quietly to the table, say Sorry and withdraw his forces or strike out?
We need to threaten military action but at the same time offer him a face saving way out, probably now half of Ukraine, with Lviv the new Western leaning capital.
Of course, had we offered him far less than this pre invasion, none of this war would have happened.
NATO has stated that they will fulfil its obligations should Russia tread on an inch of its members' soil.
You want them to escalate the conflict to stop Putin from lashing out. Can't see how that works.
And you arrogantly advocate "we" give him half of Ukraine. How does that solve the problem of an occupying force on a resisting country? May turn Ukraine into Russia's Vietnam.0 -
pblakeney said:
I think there was a little bit of war involved there too.AndyG785 said:
Yalta, the west & ussr divided up europe, Stalin would def be classed as an unstable leader.pblakeney said:AndyG785 said:
History isn't with you on that, plenty of deals have been done to avoid/end conflict without the agreement of the participating countries.pblakeney said:
I believe that is up to Ukraine, not us.AndyG785 said:
I believe he thought we would offer him a neutral Ukraine/disputed regions but all we ever did was say "censored off with your troops"
Easy for us to say "Go on then.".
The greater good has to be considered, continued war in Ukraine isn't good for anyone.
Such as? Did they include superpowers with megalomaniac leaders?
War is never good. I think we all agree on that.
Yeah, you'd have thought there may have been books or documentaries on it wouldn't you?0 -
I think he probably is looking for a way out. Regardless of how brutal he's willing to be, he still can't win this. He doesn't have enough people or equipment, and in a few months the effects of sanctions will not be hypothetical.pblakeney said:
I hope you are right.johngti said:
I’d be thinking that, if accepted and honest then it’s over, we can start rebuilding. If it’s in bad faith then the case for further intervention becomes overwhelming. Which scares me, if I’m honest, but something has to give and Putin needs a way out.pblakeney said:
I think Zelensky would and should take it however reluctantly. If it was honest.rick_chasey said:Ooof. What would you do if you’re Zelensky? Take it?
Do I trust it? Not a snowflakes chance in hell. Biggest issue is the first point. Indicates future problems.
I think you are wrong. Putin is not looking for a way out.0 -
If he's as sick as they say, does he want a way out?
I guess what's worse - lose the war, or lose the war and all your 'chums' money?0
