Poo tin... Put@in...

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

What's the source for the EU number? Does it include the central bank?

And does the UK number include the bank we are giving 30 days grace to?

You'd need to ask the person who wrote the article. It's reasonable to assume it's been done on a consistent basis. Unless you know otherwise?

They are figures put out by the UK government or the Conservative party, I'm not sure which, and dutifully propagated by the Telegraph. I don't think it's reasonable to accept them at face value.

Which paper would it need to be in for you to believe the report?

I'd be interested to see any counter evidence you have rather than a vague feeling that the info came from the 'wrong' source.

Just asked for some explanation of what each number is. Is it in the article?

Ask the author, I have no more info other than what is in the article. What gives you cause for concern about the numbers, apart from he fact that it was in a link to the Telegraph?

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

What's the source for the EU number? Does it include the central bank?

And does the UK number include the bank we are giving 30 days grace to?

You'd need to ask the person who wrote the article. It's reasonable to assume it's been done on a consistent basis. Unless you know otherwise?

They are figures put out by the UK government or the Conservative party, I'm not sure which, and dutifully propagated by the Telegraph. I don't think it's reasonable to accept them at face value.

Which paper would it need to be in for you to believe the report?

I'd be interested to see any counter evidence you have rather than a vague feeling that the info came from the 'wrong' source.

Just asked for some explanation of what each number is. Is it in the article?

Ask the author, I have no more info other than what is in the article. What gives you cause for concern about the numbers, apart from he fact that it was in a link to the Telegraph?

A healthy level of scepticism. I couldn't read the article so only have your extract to go by. No other publication seems to be using that release as the basis for a story.

pangolin

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-60506565

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60250678

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19943876.boris-johnson-accused-misleading-commons-sanctioning-chelsea-owner/

At some point the question becomes why do you believe them? These are just since Feb and don't even include the claim to have sanctioned 100 individuals in a week, which later turned out to be 15.

thegreatdivide

Look at the state of this artillery position! The Russian Army is taking a pounding.

https://mobile.twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1500490078526791684

pangolin

Protesters fighting police in St Petersburg

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/t83160/antiwar_protesters_in_saint_petersburg_confront/

kingstonian

thegreatdivide said:

Look at the state of this artillery position! The Russian Army is taking a pounding.

https://mobile.twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1500490078526791684

Absolutely destroyed. Wonder when that was filmed.

thegreatdivide

kingstonian said:

thegreatdivide said:

Look at the state of this artillery position! The Russian Army is taking a pounding.

https://mobile.twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1500490078526791684

Absolutely destroyed. Wonder when that was filmed.

Not sure, but there’s other footage of very similar heavy artillery that was being towed when it was hit on a motorway.

There’s also footage of lads clearly roaming the countryside in a van, popping out and hitting armour with various portable rockets. It’s going to be playing havoc on Russian moral.

daniel_b

This defence of the conservative party is feeling like a religious fervour kind of vibe, or those people who are supporters of their football club, and nothing bad can be said about them.

I find it remarkably concerning that anyone would willingly have such devoted allegiance to a group of people in suits who are (when in power) meant to be running the country for us.
It's bizarre - we effectively pay their wages, and yet some people worship them like deities who can do no wrong, and always tell the truth.

Very much like religious fanatics who when confronted with awkward contradictions from their story of choice, will simply ignore it, or simply say you have to have faith.

rick_chasey

So I think the consensus western view from informed people on the current situation is that Russia won’t and cannot win with current troop levels but Russia inevitably will send in plenty more so the likelihood is still some form of Russian conventional victory followed by savage insurgency (various podcasts, FT, Economist etc)

thegreatdivide

rick_chasey said:

So I think the consensus western view from informed people on the current situation is that Russia won’t and cannot win with current troop levels but Russia inevitably will send in plenty more so the likelihood is still some form of Russian conventional victory followed by savage insurgency (various podcasts, FT, Economist etc)

See Sky News link I posted earlier. They don’t have a hope of holding Ukraine if they ever managed to ‘take it’. Not enough manpower and 40 million population out to get you.

Pross

pangolin said:

Stevo_666 said:

ballysmate said:

pangolin said:

Stevo_666 said:

ballysmate said:

veronese68 said:

Maybe one of the Tory fanboys could explain why Lebedev was given a peerage, in spite of it being flagged as a security risk. There's an article about it in that left wing rag The Times.

No intention of defending it. It was wrong.
My point was that the opinion on here that the UK wasn't pulling its weight sanction wise was wrong.
I point out that even the Russians say that we are the main or at least one of the major nations that are squeezing the lie out of the Russian economy and even that is twisted to be a snipe at the Foreign Sec.

As regards being a Tory fanboy, if there weren't millions of us back in 2019, Jezza would have been PM and us on the way out of NATO, to be in the same sort of position, alliance wise as somebody like, erm, Ukraine.

No thanks asked.

I don't see anyone making a serious effort to rebut the facts on asset freezing. Funny that. Seems like there's a bit of diversion going on. Hopefully this thread won't turn out like so many others do and descend into a whiney tory bashing thread when the real enemy is further east.

Real enemy or trusted source Stevo? Make your mind up.

Bizarre that you guys are taking Russian claims that the naughty Brits sanctions are hurting them at face value.

So you don't believe that freezing hundreds of billions of assets are hurting them?

Not if he's trying to divert from the point I am making

You're not making a point though, you're just repeating claims the government is making, on a topic they have been shown to lie about.

You say that as though there are topics they haven't been shown to lie about! They're pathological,the first assumption is anything they say is a lie.

briantrumpet

Pross said:

pangolin said:

Stevo_666 said:

ballysmate said:

pangolin said:

Stevo_666 said:

ballysmate said:

veronese68 said:

Maybe one of the Tory fanboys could explain why Lebedev was given a peerage, in spite of it being flagged as a security risk. There's an article about it in that left wing rag The Times.

No intention of defending it. It was wrong.
My point was that the opinion on here that the UK wasn't pulling its weight sanction wise was wrong.
I point out that even the Russians say that we are the main or at least one of the major nations that are squeezing the lie out of the Russian economy and even that is twisted to be a snipe at the Foreign Sec.

As regards being a Tory fanboy, if there weren't millions of us back in 2019, Jezza would have been PM and us on the way out of NATO, to be in the same sort of position, alliance wise as somebody like, erm, Ukraine.

No thanks asked.

I don't see anyone making a serious effort to rebut the facts on asset freezing. Funny that. Seems like there's a bit of diversion going on. Hopefully this thread won't turn out like so many others do and descend into a whiney tory bashing thread when the real enemy is further east.

Real enemy or trusted source Stevo? Make your mind up.

Bizarre that you guys are taking Russian claims that the naughty Brits sanctions are hurting them at face value.

So you don't believe that freezing hundreds of billions of assets are hurting them?

Not if he's trying to divert from the point I am making

You're not making a point though, you're just repeating claims the government is making, on a topic they have been shown to lie about.

You say that as though there are topics they haven't been shown to lie about! They're pathological,the first assumption is anything they say is a lie.

Can't remember if Peter Oborne's ever-lengthening list has been quoted.

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

tailwindhome

50 visas issued to Ukrainians with family ties in the UK

That's good too, no?

briantrumpet

tailwindhome said:

50 visas issued to Ukrainians with family ties in the UK

That's good too, no?

Must be good, as it's trending on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/search?q=50 ukrainian

pinkbikini

daniel_b said:

This defence of the conservative party is feeling like a religious fervour kind of vibe, or those people who are supporters of their football club, and nothing bad can be said about them.

I find it remarkably concerning that anyone would willingly have such devoted allegiance to a group of people in suits who are (when in power) meant to be running the country for us.
It's bizarre - we effectively pay their wages, and yet some people worship them like deities who can do no wrong, and always tell the truth.

Very much like religious fanatics who when confronted with awkward contradictions from their story of choice, will simply ignore it, or simply say you have to have faith.

It’s a good point. No one is really denying the absolute £ figure of sanctions (how could you, we don’t have access to any of the data), nor that it is a good thing to implement. The real question is the % of funds which can potentially be sanctioned. Particularly if we’re comparing to EU sanctions. No one on here knows that figure. Waste of time arguing about it with pro-Boris acolytes, dodgy accountants, or anyone else.

I hope sanctions will be enough to force change, but it will take time that Ukranians don’t have. To wait 18 months for foreign property ownership/registration details to be available in the UK is a catastrofuck of Tory making.

rick_chasey

It’s not just about spanking the Russian elite - it’s also a question of how corrupt the UK government is, as some of the links the government has to Russia have been flagged as a national security risk and the PM has overridden them.

Plus you have Russians and other kleptocrats setting up sham companies in the Uk to allow them to donate to political parties or to sue investigative journalists for libel.

In case it wasn’t obvious this invasion has thrown those questionable relationships into stark relief.

tailwindhome

Channel 4 showing Zelenskyy's satire, Servant of the People, in which he played a history teacher who becomes President of Ukraine

It'll be on catchup I expect or starts on +1 at 11.35

DeVlaeminck

rick_chasey said:

It’s not just about spanking the Russian elite - it’s also a question of how corrupt the UK government is, as some of the links the government has to Russia have been flagged as a national security risk and the PM has overridden them.

Plus you have Russians and other kleptocrats setting up sham companies in the Uk to allow them to donate to political parties or to sue investigative journalists for libel.

In case it wasn’t obvious this invasion has thrown those questionable relationships into stark relief.

Yes it's a broader point but democracy needs protecting. We've seen that in Russia - we've seen the growth of democracy there go into reverse.

We shouldn't be so arrogant that we think democracy in the West is immune from erosion. We've seen Trump try and subvert the democratic process and for me Boris ignoring political norms - his refusal to resign over the Covid rule stuff, his lying with impunity etc - takes us a little way down that path. Nor saying we are turning into Putin's Russia but I do think there is a case for looking at things like press freedom, media ownership, freedom to protest, parliamentary standards and so on.

pinkbikini

Watching the news - Ukrainian refugees. EU has taken in 1 million. /27 = c.37k per country. UK, under new visa schemes implemented by Thicki Patel, a total of 50.

That’s a pretty shocking % figure if accurate.

Go Tories, hearts and minds.

Still, makes the UK percentage figure of sanctionable/sanctioned assets look amazing.

rick_chasey

DeVlaeminck said:

rick_chasey said:

It’s not just about spanking the Russian elite - it’s also a question of how corrupt the UK government is, as some of the links the government has to Russia have been flagged as a national security risk and the PM has overridden them.

Plus you have Russians and other kleptocrats setting up sham companies in the Uk to allow them to donate to political parties or to sue investigative journalists for libel.

In case it wasn’t obvious this invasion has thrown those questionable relationships into stark relief.

Yes it's a broader point but democracy needs protecting. We've seen that in Russia - we've seen the growth of democracy there go into reverse.

We shouldn't be so arrogant that we think democracy in the West is immune from erosion. We've seen Trump try and subvert the democratic process and for me Boris ignoring political norms - his refusal to resign over the Covid rule stuff, his lying with impunity etc - takes us a little way down that path. Nor saying we are turning into Putin's Russia but I do think there is a case for looking at things like press freedom, media ownership, freedom to protest, parliamentary standards and so on.

Sure but a basic premise is that your MP makes decisions in the interest of the British public in their entirety and not in the interest of whoever has given them money or has dirt on them.

Why would a Russian who owes their vast fortune to Putin want to give money to an MP who is only making decisions in the interest of the British public…?

We all know the answer.

ballysmate

kingstonian said:

MattFalle said:

ballysmate said:

MattFalle said:

Dorset_Boy said:

The counter argument will be than the UK had far more Russian money to put the freeze on!

this.

The Tory party has prostituted themselves to the Russian pimp for the political financial equivalent of a £20 bliwie in alleyway and unfortunately, as can be seen from tge last election, the majority of the popularion are too blinkered to see this.

on a geo political level De Pffeffel and his bunch or toadyers are as culpable as Putin for allowing Russia to spread its tentacles.

#Toryscum

Ah yes, the last election. The choice was between the Tories or Labour whose leader wanted the UK to withdraw from NATO. From your post, I assume you wish that Labour had won.

A proposed withdrawal from NATO that never, ever would have happened or a racist, spoilt, corrupt, adulterer liar who was determined to force through a racist short sighted policy to withbraw Britain from the largest trading partnership in order that he and his cronies could make a shedload of cash?

And yeah, Labour couldn't have done worse than this bunch of inbreds.

#fucktheTories

I’m neither a Brexit supporter nor a Tory party lover, but to add a layer of realism to this argument the PM, regardless of whether it was Boris or anyone else, had a duty to push Brexit through following the referendum result. I don’t like the Brexit outcome, but those of us that were remainers lost and we sadly have to suck it up. I also don’t see Brexit as being racist, but if you do that’s up to you.

As for Labour at the last election, Corbyn was clearly Anti-NATO (he had been for decades) and not particularly pro-Europe either. He didn’t put any weight behind the Remain campaign and his party let him get away with it, which actively contributed to where we are today.

Don't get coming on here posting sensible comments like that. You'll be drummed out of Cake Stop.

pblakeney

Latest evacuation routes lead to Russia or Belarus.
Hmmmm. Makes sense from a Russian perspective, not so much from Ukraine's.

tailwindhome

Someone at the Home Office is in for a right bollocking that 50 immigrants got through.

Pross

pinkbikini said:

Watching the news - Ukrainian refugees. EU has taken in 1 million. /27 = c.37k per country. UK, under new visa schemes implemented by Thicki Patel, a total of 50.

That’s a pretty shocking % figure if accurate.

Go Tories, hearts and minds.

Still, makes the UK percentage figure of sanctionable/sanctioned assets look amazing.

To be fair the vast majot in the EU are in a few countries that border Ukraine. Do we know numbers for France / Spain / Italy?

That said our response is pathetic with ministers saying they are 'making it as easy as possible' when the evidence suggests differently.

Pross

The Russians now offering safe routes out of besieged cities but only into Russia or Belarus. The claim it was a suggestion by Macron, another example of attempts at divide and conquer.

rick_chasey

tailwindhome said:

Someone at the Home Office is in for a right bollocking that 50 immigrants got through.

Gives Patel a chance to show the one thing she has a gift for: deporting people

Pross

Ministers denying a third route is being arranged into the UK and the Home Office then comes out to say it is true. I can't work out if lying has just become default or they are so inept that Ministers aren't being briefed before doing the morning round of interviews.

pblakeney

Pross said:

Ministers denying a third route is being arranged into the UK and the Home Office then comes out to say it is true. I can't work out if lying has just become default or they are so inept that Ministers aren't being briefed before doing the morning round of interviews.

I believe them to be liars, and inept.

briantrumpet

ballysmate

daniel_b said:

This defence of the conservative party is feeling like a religious fervour kind of vibe, or those people who are supporters of their football club, and nothing bad can be said about them.

I find it remarkably concerning that anyone would willingly have such devoted allegiance to a group of people in suits who are (when in power) meant to be running the country for us.
It's bizarre - we effectively pay their wages, and yet some people worship them like deities who can do no wrong, and always tell the truth.

Very much like religious fanatics who when confronted with awkward contradictions from their story of choice, will simply ignore it, or simply say you have to have faith.

Devoted allegiance?
The level of UK sanctions was branded pathetic on here, although we have frozen a nearly as many bank assets as the US and EU combined. We were calling for Russia to be kicked out of Swift before the US and EU came on board. In short, we have done more to wage economic warfare on Russia than anyone else.
When it was pointed out that the Russians admitted that the sanctions imposed by the UK were hurting them, the response on here was to denounce it as propaganda. Can't give the government credit for anything on Cake Stop can we?


Could HMG do more about the Russian oligarchs? Of course they could and should.
Could we take in more refugees? Of course we should.
I have not said otherwise. These are legitimate criticisms of the government.

To borrow your football analogy. The Tories are the Cake Stop equivalent of Man Utd. Everyone on here hates them, often without any objectivity.

Objectivity went out the window on here some time ago and possibly why the number of posters has fallen over the last couple of years.

Objectivity seems to be in short supply elsewhere as well. Russian vodka, fish and other products have been withdrawn from sale, even though the producers have already been paid. A symbolic but ultimately empty gesture.
Meanwhile tanks and artillery pieces roll into Ukraine having been built on the back of gas exports to Germany and Italy. Their running costs are still being financed by gas exports to Europe.

Perhaps the Russians could borrow from the Brexit campaign and put a slogan on the side of their tanks.
"Sponsored by Italy"