Poo tin... Put@in...
Comments
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That's not really the equivalent at all. Crimea used to be part of Russia. It was made a special region of Ukraine in 1954, but that was under the Soviet Union. It was then a special region of Ukraine.rjsterry said:
They can see themselves as what they like. Plenty of countries have multiple ethnicities within their borders. You may as well suggest that France could annex Wallonia from Belgium.DeVlaeminck said:
Yes, although it is hard to know. I guess Putin will not want to be boasting about killing Ukrainians given his pretext for all this is liberating them - and Ukraine will not want to publicise defeats so we may not get the full picture.blazing_saddles said:
They were fairly certain that Ukraine would capitulate in short order.DeVlaeminck said:I mean you'd assume Russia would not send a huge convoy if it wasn't fairly certain it wasn't going to be bombed to bits - ok it may have miscalculated before but I'd say it's odds on Ukraine doesn't have the capability to significantly disrupt that.
So far Putin has miscalculated right across the board.
I've read that Putin has made mistakes because he hasn't fought a war like this before - ok possibly true but I think it generally pays not to assume your opponent is an idiot and Putin is presumably not making the strategic decisions himself.
Well let's say a majority in certain areas of Ukraine - eg Crimea - see themselves as Russians.First.Aspect said:This is nothing to do with repatriation of ethnic Russian regions, it is about restoring the Soviet Union or something akin to that. Which didn't last very long in the first place and didn't have that much of a historical underpinning around the edges. It wanted Finland at one stage, for example.
It is about as valid as the UK annexing Newfoundland.
Also, what's ethnic Russian? Do northern Siberians count? What about people from Nakhodka?
It is a fiction that there is some historical divide between Russians/not Russians that needs to be restored, and that this somehow justifies annexing bits of a neighbouring country.
Agitprop.0 -
I don't see the difference. The world is full of cobbled together countries that have their borders modified from time to time. All borders are arbitrary inventions.TheBigBean said:
That's not really the equivalent at all. Crimea used to be part of Russia. It was made a special region of Ukraine in 1954, but that was under the Soviet Union. It was then a special region of Ukraine.rjsterry said:
They can see themselves as what they like. Plenty of countries have multiple ethnicities within their borders. You may as well suggest that France could annex Wallonia from Belgium.DeVlaeminck said:
Yes, although it is hard to know. I guess Putin will not want to be boasting about killing Ukrainians given his pretext for all this is liberating them - and Ukraine will not want to publicise defeats so we may not get the full picture.blazing_saddles said:
They were fairly certain that Ukraine would capitulate in short order.DeVlaeminck said:I mean you'd assume Russia would not send a huge convoy if it wasn't fairly certain it wasn't going to be bombed to bits - ok it may have miscalculated before but I'd say it's odds on Ukraine doesn't have the capability to significantly disrupt that.
So far Putin has miscalculated right across the board.
I've read that Putin has made mistakes because he hasn't fought a war like this before - ok possibly true but I think it generally pays not to assume your opponent is an idiot and Putin is presumably not making the strategic decisions himself.
Well let's say a majority in certain areas of Ukraine - eg Crimea - see themselves as Russians.First.Aspect said:This is nothing to do with repatriation of ethnic Russian regions, it is about restoring the Soviet Union or something akin to that. Which didn't last very long in the first place and didn't have that much of a historical underpinning around the edges. It wanted Finland at one stage, for example.
It is about as valid as the UK annexing Newfoundland.
Also, what's ethnic Russian? Do northern Siberians count? What about people from Nakhodka?
It is a fiction that there is some historical divide between Russians/not Russians that needs to be restored, and that this somehow justifies annexing bits of a neighbouring country.
Agitprop.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Crimea was part of Russia for quite a long time. It was only "given" to Ukraine in Soviet times to reinforce the Russification of Ukraine by adding in a large ethnically Russian ( we can argue about what that means but it seems fairly commonly used) majority area.rjsterry said:
I thought we were past the idea of ethno states now that it is the 21st century.DeVlaeminck said:
Crimea I believe is predominantly ethnic Russian - if you held a referendum there it would vote for at least closer ties with Russia.First.Aspect said:
Would you maintain sanctions? Or are those part of the quid pro quo? (The latter, obviously).DeVlaeminck said:
I think I'd give up Ukraine and even the Dombass (?) region if it meant Russia withdrawing and some guarantee if Ukrainian sovereignty in the rest of the countryPross said:Recognition of Crimea as Russian is now part of Russian peace demands.
I can see it coming down to who runs out of food and supplies first if the Russians encircle Kyiv.
It's not as if there is a long history of Ukraine being a state with Crimea as an integral part of it and I believe the majority are ethnically/linguistically Russian. The former majority Tatar population have been replaced since the 19th century and deported en masse post ww2 - I don't know if there is a movement for them to reclaim it but realistically that's not happening.
So, Russia invades, gets some land, consequences of doing so removed.
What next? Where next?
Yes it's be part of a peace settlement - no more sanctions.
I'm on the side of Ukraine in all this but it's not entirely one sided. You can see why some areas might want a degree of autonomy at the very least.
Interesting documentary about right wing militias in Ukraine.
https://youtu.be/KfD_CaSIxmQ
I'm no expert in this though and it's not my country - just hate the thought of lives being lost.
Given it was all part of the Soviet Union anyway I guess it wasn't seen as giving away territory and the Soviet leader in Ukraine was Khrushchev so not without influence.
So given its been taken back by Russia anyway and the population of Crimea are largely Russian - if formalising it as part of Russia to facilitate a peace agreement ends this war and keeps the rest of Ukraine out of Russian hands that wouldn't be the worst result imo.
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Some countries are like that. Some aren't. Crimea seems to be a geographically distinct region.rjsterry said:
I don't see the difference. The world is full of cobbled together countries that have their borders modified from time to time. All borders are arbitrary inventions.TheBigBean said:
That's not really the equivalent at all. Crimea used to be part of Russia. It was made a special region of Ukraine in 1954, but that was under the Soviet Union. It was then a special region of Ukraine.rjsterry said:
They can see themselves as what they like. Plenty of countries have multiple ethnicities within their borders. You may as well suggest that France could annex Wallonia from Belgium.DeVlaeminck said:
Yes, although it is hard to know. I guess Putin will not want to be boasting about killing Ukrainians given his pretext for all this is liberating them - and Ukraine will not want to publicise defeats so we may not get the full picture.blazing_saddles said:
They were fairly certain that Ukraine would capitulate in short order.DeVlaeminck said:I mean you'd assume Russia would not send a huge convoy if it wasn't fairly certain it wasn't going to be bombed to bits - ok it may have miscalculated before but I'd say it's odds on Ukraine doesn't have the capability to significantly disrupt that.
So far Putin has miscalculated right across the board.
I've read that Putin has made mistakes because he hasn't fought a war like this before - ok possibly true but I think it generally pays not to assume your opponent is an idiot and Putin is presumably not making the strategic decisions himself.
Well let's say a majority in certain areas of Ukraine - eg Crimea - see themselves as Russians.First.Aspect said:This is nothing to do with repatriation of ethnic Russian regions, it is about restoring the Soviet Union or something akin to that. Which didn't last very long in the first place and didn't have that much of a historical underpinning around the edges. It wanted Finland at one stage, for example.
It is about as valid as the UK annexing Newfoundland.
Also, what's ethnic Russian? Do northern Siberians count? What about people from Nakhodka?
It is a fiction that there is some historical divide between Russians/not Russians that needs to be restored, and that this somehow justifies annexing bits of a neighbouring country.
Agitprop.0 -
US officials suggesting the Russian convoy is moving so slowly because it has run out of fuel.
I slightly worry that the Russians are still taking quite a lot of ground despite being, what looks like to be utterly unprepared.
What happens when they get their act together.0 -
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15387216.2019.1593873?journalCode=rege20First.Aspect said:
When you say majority, how do you define that, and did they vote on it? Did they want to be part of Russia, or for Ukraines foreign policy to be more pro Russia?DeVlaeminck said:
Yes, although it is hard to know. I guess Putin will not want to be boasting about killing Ukrainians given his pretext for all this is liberating them - and Ukraine will not want to publicise defeats so we may not get the full picture.blazing_saddles said:
They were fairly certain that Ukraine would capitulate in short order.DeVlaeminck said:I mean you'd assume Russia would not send a huge convoy if it wasn't fairly certain it wasn't going to be bombed to bits - ok it may have miscalculated before but I'd say it's odds on Ukraine doesn't have the capability to significantly disrupt that.
So far Putin has miscalculated right across the board.
I've read that Putin has made mistakes because he hasn't fought a war like this before - ok possibly true but I think it generally pays not to assume your opponent is an idiot and Putin is presumably not making the strategic decisions himself.
Well let's say a majority in certain areas of Ukraine - eg Crimea - see themselves as Russians.First.Aspect said:This is nothing to do with repatriation of ethnic Russian regions, it is about restoring the Soviet Union or something akin to that. Which didn't last very long in the first place and didn't have that much of a historical underpinning around the edges. It wanted Finland at one stage, for example.
It is about as valid as the UK annexing Newfoundland.
Also, what's ethnic Russian? Do northern Siberians count? What about people from Nakhodka?
It is a fiction that there is some historical divide between Russians/not Russians that needs to be restored, and that this somehow justifies annexing bits of a neighbouring country.
Agitprop.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Do you think that would satisfy Putin? What about the Donbass regions?DeVlaeminck said:
So given its been taken back by Russia anyway and the population of Crimea are largely Russian - if formalising it as part of Russia to facilitate a peace agreement ends this war and keeps the rest of Ukraine out of Russian hands that wouldn't be the worst result imo.
This makes the assumption that Putin is genuinely interested in the rights of 'ethnic Russians' in a few regions of Ukraine. Personally, I think he wants to demilitarise Ukraine and ensure that it doesn't join NATO.
Given the Ukrainian constitution and the stance of the democratically elected government with regards to NATO (and membership of the EU), the only way to do that - without waiting patiently for an unlikely electoral success - is for the Russian Federation to forcibly remove the current government and put in a different one with different policies that align with his wishes.
If he were only interested in keeping Crimea and the Donbass regions, why not call a ceasefire and propose referenda in those regions?
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Arbitrary inventions in that people agree that 'the bit up to the river is ours and on the other side of the river is yours'. The land on either side of the river is just the same. The last such agreement was that the Crimean Peninsula belonged to Ukraine. To suggest that Russia has some justification for annexing the Crimean Peninsula because it was part of the USSR 70 odd years ago is the same old sh*t that every imperialist uses. It's just a post-rationalisation for grabbing a strategic location and/or resources.TheBigBean said:
Some countries are like that. Some aren't. Crimea seems to be a geographically distinct region.rjsterry said:
I don't see the difference. The world is full of cobbled together countries that have their borders modified from time to time. All borders are arbitrary inventions.TheBigBean said:
That's not really the equivalent at all. Crimea used to be part of Russia. It was made a special region of Ukraine in 1954, but that was under the Soviet Union. It was then a special region of Ukraine.rjsterry said:
They can see themselves as what they like. Plenty of countries have multiple ethnicities within their borders. You may as well suggest that France could annex Wallonia from Belgium.DeVlaeminck said:
Yes, although it is hard to know. I guess Putin will not want to be boasting about killing Ukrainians given his pretext for all this is liberating them - and Ukraine will not want to publicise defeats so we may not get the full picture.blazing_saddles said:
They were fairly certain that Ukraine would capitulate in short order.DeVlaeminck said:I mean you'd assume Russia would not send a huge convoy if it wasn't fairly certain it wasn't going to be bombed to bits - ok it may have miscalculated before but I'd say it's odds on Ukraine doesn't have the capability to significantly disrupt that.
So far Putin has miscalculated right across the board.
I've read that Putin has made mistakes because he hasn't fought a war like this before - ok possibly true but I think it generally pays not to assume your opponent is an idiot and Putin is presumably not making the strategic decisions himself.
Well let's say a majority in certain areas of Ukraine - eg Crimea - see themselves as Russians.First.Aspect said:This is nothing to do with repatriation of ethnic Russian regions, it is about restoring the Soviet Union or something akin to that. Which didn't last very long in the first place and didn't have that much of a historical underpinning around the edges. It wanted Finland at one stage, for example.
It is about as valid as the UK annexing Newfoundland.
Also, what's ethnic Russian? Do northern Siberians count? What about people from Nakhodka?
It is a fiction that there is some historical divide between Russians/not Russians that needs to be restored, and that this somehow justifies annexing bits of a neighbouring country.
Agitprop.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Yes I don't think anyone is saying Putin was right to grab Crimea by force but we are where we are.
If it was me I'd rather be alive living in an independent Ukraine without Crimea and maybe the Dombass (Dom or Don I can never remember) region than be killed in fighting and buried in a Ukraine entirely controlled by Russia.
.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Never heard Irish republicans called imperialists before.rjsterry said:
Arbitrary inventions in that people agree that 'the bit up to the river is ours and on the other side of the river is yours'. The land on either side of the river is just the same. The last such agreement was that the Crimean Peninsula belonged to Ukraine. To suggest that Russia has some justification for annexing the Crimean Peninsula because it was part of the USSR 70 odd years ago is the same old sh*t that every imperialist uses. It's just a post-rationalisation for grabbing a strategic location and/or resources.TheBigBean said:
Some countries are like that. Some aren't. Crimea seems to be a geographically distinct region.rjsterry said:
I don't see the difference. The world is full of cobbled together countries that have their borders modified from time to time. All borders are arbitrary inventions.TheBigBean said:
That's not really the equivalent at all. Crimea used to be part of Russia. It was made a special region of Ukraine in 1954, but that was under the Soviet Union. It was then a special region of Ukraine.rjsterry said:
They can see themselves as what they like. Plenty of countries have multiple ethnicities within their borders. You may as well suggest that France could annex Wallonia from Belgium.DeVlaeminck said:
Yes, although it is hard to know. I guess Putin will not want to be boasting about killing Ukrainians given his pretext for all this is liberating them - and Ukraine will not want to publicise defeats so we may not get the full picture.blazing_saddles said:
They were fairly certain that Ukraine would capitulate in short order.DeVlaeminck said:I mean you'd assume Russia would not send a huge convoy if it wasn't fairly certain it wasn't going to be bombed to bits - ok it may have miscalculated before but I'd say it's odds on Ukraine doesn't have the capability to significantly disrupt that.
So far Putin has miscalculated right across the board.
I've read that Putin has made mistakes because he hasn't fought a war like this before - ok possibly true but I think it generally pays not to assume your opponent is an idiot and Putin is presumably not making the strategic decisions himself.
Well let's say a majority in certain areas of Ukraine - eg Crimea - see themselves as Russians.First.Aspect said:This is nothing to do with repatriation of ethnic Russian regions, it is about restoring the Soviet Union or something akin to that. Which didn't last very long in the first place and didn't have that much of a historical underpinning around the edges. It wanted Finland at one stage, for example.
It is about as valid as the UK annexing Newfoundland.
Also, what's ethnic Russian? Do northern Siberians count? What about people from Nakhodka?
It is a fiction that there is some historical divide between Russians/not Russians that needs to be restored, and that this somehow justifies annexing bits of a neighbouring country.
Agitprop.0 -
they're taking a lot of ground because there is sooooo much there. This isn't Britain. Ukraine is quite big.rick_chasey said:US officials suggesting the Russian convoy is moving so slowly because it has run out of fuel.
I slightly worry that the Russians are still taking quite a lot of ground despite being, what looks like to be utterly unprepared.
What happens when they get their act together.
You're a historian - look back at Barbarossa and see the land gains as to how that went..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Of course that may not satisfy Putin - it probably wouldn't - but if the war was proving difficult it's an exit strategy that saves face and preferable imo to the alternative of flattening urban areas to batter Ukraine into submission by force - which we know Russia could do if it chose to.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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I mean, he was threatening Sweden a day or two ago. Pretty clear he wants the USSR back with a string of client governments across Eastern Europe.yearofthegoat said:
Do you think that would satisfy Putin? What about the Donbass regions?DeVlaeminck said:
So given its been taken back by Russia anyway and the population of Crimea are largely Russian - if formalising it as part of Russia to facilitate a peace agreement ends this war and keeps the rest of Ukraine out of Russian hands that wouldn't be the worst result imo.
This makes the assumption that Putin is genuinely interested in the rights of 'ethnic Russians' in a few regions of Ukraine. Personally, I think he wants to demilitarise Ukraine and ensure that it doesn't join NATO.
Given the Ukrainian constitution and the stance of the democratically elected government with regards to NATO (and membership of the EU), the only way to do that - without waiting patiently for an unlikely electoral success - is for the Russian Federation to forcibly remove the current government and put in a different one with different policies that align with his wishes.
If he were only interested in keeping Crimea and the Donbass regions, why not call a ceasefire and propose referenda in those regions?
If we start off with 'OK, you can keep Crimea, but you have to promise you won't go any further' we'll be back doing the same thing in a year or two.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
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I get that - they also took millions of troops along with all that land the beginning of that.MattFalle said:
they're taking a lot of ground because there is sooooo much there. This isn't Britain. Ukraine is quite big.rick_chasey said:US officials suggesting the Russian convoy is moving so slowly because it has run out of fuel.
I slightly worry that the Russians are still taking quite a lot of ground despite being, what looks like to be utterly unprepared.
What happens when they get their act together.
You're a historian - look back at Barbarossa and see the land gains as to how that went.
How do you see it playing out over the next month?
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Can we have Berwick upon Tweed back please?TheBigBean said:
That's not really the equivalent at all. Crimea used to be part of Russia. It was made a special region of Ukraine in 1954, but that was under the Soviet Union. It was then a special region of Ukraine.rjsterry said:
They can see themselves as what they like. Plenty of countries have multiple ethnicities within their borders. You may as well suggest that France could annex Wallonia from Belgium.DeVlaeminck said:
Yes, although it is hard to know. I guess Putin will not want to be boasting about killing Ukrainians given his pretext for all this is liberating them - and Ukraine will not want to publicise defeats so we may not get the full picture.blazing_saddles said:
They were fairly certain that Ukraine would capitulate in short order.DeVlaeminck said:I mean you'd assume Russia would not send a huge convoy if it wasn't fairly certain it wasn't going to be bombed to bits - ok it may have miscalculated before but I'd say it's odds on Ukraine doesn't have the capability to significantly disrupt that.
So far Putin has miscalculated right across the board.
I've read that Putin has made mistakes because he hasn't fought a war like this before - ok possibly true but I think it generally pays not to assume your opponent is an idiot and Putin is presumably not making the strategic decisions himself.
Well let's say a majority in certain areas of Ukraine - eg Crimea - see themselves as Russians.First.Aspect said:This is nothing to do with repatriation of ethnic Russian regions, it is about restoring the Soviet Union or something akin to that. Which didn't last very long in the first place and didn't have that much of a historical underpinning around the edges. It wanted Finland at one stage, for example.
It is about as valid as the UK annexing Newfoundland.
Also, what's ethnic Russian? Do northern Siberians count? What about people from Nakhodka?
It is a fiction that there is some historical divide between Russians/not Russians that needs to be restored, and that this somehow justifies annexing bits of a neighbouring country.
Agitprop.0 -
And then check out Borodino, which few people appreciate that Napoleon won and went on to occupy Moscow and again see how that wentMattFalle said:
they're taking a lot of ground because there is sooooo much there. This isn't Britain. Ukraine is quite big.rick_chasey said:US officials suggesting the Russian convoy is moving so slowly because it has run out of fuel.
I slightly worry that the Russians are still taking quite a lot of ground despite being, what looks like to be utterly unprepared.
What happens when they get their act together.
You're a historian - look back at Barbarossa and see the land gains as to how that went.0 -
I want lots of things but I often settle for what is realistic. Then again that may explain why I never became head of a super power! I mean I get it and you may be right that he won't accept that compromise - but if there is a chance to settle this diplomatically ...rjsterry said:
I mean, he was threatening Sweden a day or two ago. Pretty clear he wants the USSR back with a string of client governments across Eastern Europe.yearofthegoat said:
Do you think that would satisfy Putin? What about the Donbass regions?DeVlaeminck said:
So given its been taken back by Russia anyway and the population of Crimea are largely Russian - if formalising it as part of Russia to facilitate a peace agreement ends this war and keeps the rest of Ukraine out of Russian hands that wouldn't be the worst result imo.
This makes the assumption that Putin is genuinely interested in the rights of 'ethnic Russians' in a few regions of Ukraine. Personally, I think he wants to demilitarise Ukraine and ensure that it doesn't join NATO.
Given the Ukrainian constitution and the stance of the democratically elected government with regards to NATO (and membership of the EU), the only way to do that - without waiting patiently for an unlikely electoral success - is for the Russian Federation to forcibly remove the current government and put in a different one with different policies that align with his wishes.
If he were only interested in keeping Crimea and the Donbass regions, why not call a ceasefire and propose referenda in those regions?[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
All covered in war and peace.surrey_commuter said:
And then check out Borodino, which few people appreciate that Napoleon won and went on to occupy Moscow and again see how that wentMattFalle said:
they're taking a lot of ground because there is sooooo much there. This isn't Britain. Ukraine is quite big.rick_chasey said:US officials suggesting the Russian convoy is moving so slowly because it has run out of fuel.
I slightly worry that the Russians are still taking quite a lot of ground despite being, what looks like to be utterly unprepared.
What happens when they get their act together.
You're a historian - look back at Barbarossa and see the land gains as to how that went.0 -
Sure. We can all point to historical examples of defeats and victories.surrey_commuter said:
And then check out Borodino, which few people appreciate that Napoleon won and went on to occupy Moscow and again see how that wentMattFalle said:
they're taking a lot of ground because there is sooooo much there. This isn't Britain. Ukraine is quite big.rick_chasey said:US officials suggesting the Russian convoy is moving so slowly because it has run out of fuel.
I slightly worry that the Russians are still taking quite a lot of ground despite being, what looks like to be utterly unprepared.
What happens when they get their act together.
You're a historian - look back at Barbarossa and see the land gains as to how that went.
We can look more recently at Iraq, for example.
Is Ukraine's main route for victory full on total war?0 -
Read Frank Gardners update. That massive 40 mile long convoy of tanks and guns is b0llocks. It's lots of separate supply convoys and they're knackered! The NLAW boys need to get there fast.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-605428770 -
Being reported that Russia have bombed the Kyiv Holocaust memorial (located adjacent to suspected target of the TV tower)
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Le Pen has scrapped her election materials, that photo of her and Putin no longer a vote winner“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
DeVlaeminck said:
Yes I don't think anyone is saying Putin was right to grab Crimea by force but we are
rick_chasey said:MattFalle said:rick_chasey said:US officials suggesting the Russian convoy is moving so slowly because it has run out of fuel.
I slightly worry that the Russians are still taking quite
Russia doesn't have a population and millions of troops ideologically indoctrinated to the cause and Axis partners and disgruntled locals to help them and are missing a freaking massive economy that has been geared up for years for total war.rick_chasey said:
I get that - they also took millions of troops along with all that land the beginning of that.MattFalle said:
they're taking a lot of ground because there is sooooo much there. This isn't Britain. Ukraine is quite big.rick_chasey said:US officials suggesting the Russian convoy is moving so slowly because it has run out of fuel.
I slightly worry that the Russians are still taking quite a lot of ground despite being, what looks like to be utterly unprepared.
What happens when they get their act together.
You're a historian - look back at Barbarossa and see the land gains as to how that went.
How do you see it playing out over the next month?
The Nazi armed forces at the time were the best in the world - the Russians at the mo seem a bitshit tbh.
how will it pan out? no idea at all. absolutely none.
do that convoy, logistics gone, no food, ammo, fuel to front line troops, game over.
cripple the economy so Russia goes bankrupt? Potential for Russian society to fall and revolution, all over.
Ukranians crack on as they are? Loss of Russian morale, army mutinies, all over.
Putin agrees to pull back, negotiated settlement, all over until the next time.
Russians have a massive breakthrough, steam into Kyev, game over.
No one actually knows and its too difficult to call and very silly to call it.
gut feeling"? very high potential for a war of attrition lasting for years crippling the economies and societies of Eutope. ends up like Chechnya.
Main thing to acknowledge and understand though is thats its a deeply, deeply shocking and sad thing to be happening and should never, ever happen..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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oh ffs. frickin' stupid forum.rick_chasey said:
I get that - they also took millions of troops along with all that land the beginning of that.MattFalle said:
they're taking a lot of ground because there is sooooo much there. This isn't Britain. Ukraine is quite big.rick_chasey said:US officials suggesting the Russian convoy is moving so slowly because it has run out of fuel.
I slightly worry that the Russians are still taking quite a lot of ground despite being, what looks like to be utterly unprepared.
What happens when they get their act together.
You're a historian - look back at Barbarossa and see the land gains as to how that went.
How do you see it playing out over the next month?
have answered Rick's question above - you have to click the "show previous threads" button.
can someone not working off a telephone cut and paste the necessary please..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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so could be anything then?thegreatdivide said:Good updates here:
cheers Caitlin. you had one job......The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Says the quiet bit out loud
Eastern Europeans, fuck em, we've enough
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
MattFalle said:
Russia doesn't have a population and millions of troops ideologically indoctrinated to the cause and Axis partners and disgruntled locals to help them and are missing a freaking massive economy that has been geared up for years for total war.rick_chasey said:
I get that - they also took millions of troops along with all that land the beginning of that.MattFalle said:
they're taking a lot of ground because there is sooooo much there. This isn't Britain. Ukraine is quite big.rick_chasey said:US officials suggesting the Russian convoy is moving so slowly because it has run out of fuel.
I slightly worry that the Russians are still taking quite a lot of ground despite being, what looks like to be utterly unprepared.
What happens when they get their act together.
You're a historian - look back at Barbarossa and see the land gains as to how that went.
How do you see it playing out over the next month?
The Nazi armed forces at the time were the best in the world - the Russians at the mo seem a bitshit tbh.
how will it pan out? no idea at all. absolutely none.
do that convoy, logistics gone, no food, ammo, fuel to front line troops, game over.
cripple the economy so Russia goes bankrupt? Potential for Russian society to fall and revolution, all over.
Ukranians crack on as they are? Loss of Russian morale, army mutinies, all over.
Putin agrees to pull back, negotiated settlement, all over until the next time.
Russians have a massive breakthrough, steam into Kyev, game over.
No one actually knows and its too difficult to call and very silly to call it.
gut feeling"? very high potential for a war of attrition lasting for years crippling the economies and societies of Eutope. ends up like Chechnya.
Main thing to acknowledge and understand though is thats its a deeply, deeply shocking and sad thing to be happening and should never, ever happen.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
grazie!.
The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Interview with 2 Russians living in the UK on R4 PM, both heartbroken they can't convince their parents in Russia as to the truth of what Russia is doing.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
#totalthunderbellendtailwindhome said:Says the quiet bit out loud
Eastern Europeans, censored em, we've enough
you can almost hear him and his cronies braying about Brexit and immigration and how well they stopped giving money to the poor people to feed their children before leching at the next 18 y.o.
totalarsehole.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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