Poo tin... Put@in...
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as the duma has proven willing to pass any legislation putin wants, he could just arrange to conscript them direct from wagner into the army
they'd still be fighting, just not paid as well
my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny0 -
I would have thought there'll be a sizeable element that like killing people with impunity and getting paid for it so they are likely to stay on.0
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If you want proof that Russia is reaching meltdown this is it:
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I don't get Twitter or video games so to me it appears that the main source of analysis is some bloke playing a video gamethegreatdivide said:If you want proof that Russia is reaching meltdown this is it:
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Fair enough.
Oryx is the leading open-source defence analysis website / research group. Reference by NATO etc. Their profile blew up (excuse the pun) at the start of the conflict. They've just come into position of footage of the above train heading to Ukraine this week, loaded with post WWII tanks that have been brought out of storage. This basically means Russia are in the sh*t.1 -
Am I right in thinking that the '54 refers to the year it was introduced?thegreatdivide said:Fair enough.
Oryx is the leading open-source defence analysis website / research group. Reference by NATO etc. Their profile blew up (excuse the pun) at the start of the conflict. They've just come into position of footage of the above train heading to Ukraine this week, loaded with post WWII tanks that have been brought out of storage. This basically means Russia are in the sh*t.0 -
No, they're even older than that. Started production in 1946, they cease production of them about 40 years ago.surrey_commuter said:
Am I right in thinking that the '54 refers to the year it was introduced?thegreatdivide said:Fair enough.
Oryx is the leading open-source defence analysis website / research group. Reference by NATO etc. Their profile blew up (excuse the pun) at the start of the conflict. They've just come into position of footage of the above train heading to Ukraine this week, loaded with post WWII tanks that have been brought out of storage. This basically means Russia are in the sh*t.0 -
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Good article here on the stupidity or desperation of the Russians sending 1950's tanks into battle. Quoted a chunk in case it paywalled.
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/23/putins-shattered-army-will-never-recover/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr
"It is the latest sign of a serious, perhaps fatal, armour shortage among Putin’s forces. As a former tank commander, I cannot overstate the insanity of sending such outdated heavy weaponry to the front – the Russians must be truly desperate. Either that or they have lost the plot.
In the 21st century, these old tanks are little more than steel coffins. A modern rifle could pierce their armour; a drone or modern Western tank could do far worse. To a “tankie” like me, it’s the equivalent of a First World War biplane taking on a new stealth fighter. If I was a Russian tank commander – God forbid – and my commanding officer told me to fight in one of these museum pieces, I would stand to attention, turn to the right, salute, and march home.
The problem is that the Russian generals still believe their own propaganda. They believe in the myth of the indestructible Soviet tank rolling across Europe. Before the invasion, Russia’s minister of defence, Sergei Shoigu, invested heavily in a fleet of modern tanks when he reformed the armed forces. Their effectiveness was impeded by corruption, however, and then they were largely destroyed in the initial invasion last year. Once they were gone, they were gone for good and impossible to replace. I said at the time it was hard to see how the Russians could ever truly recover; so it has proved. And far from giving the Russians any chance of victory, these relics will only hasten their defeat.
Critics of my view will argue that it’s quantity not quality that matters; that even these relics in large numbers are a daunting prospect on the battlefield. Nonsense. One need only study the Battle of Kursk in 1943 – the largest tank battle in history – to see the folly of sending large numbers of old tanks against superior models and advanced anti-tank weaponry. The Russians lost many hundreds of T34s in that hideous battle, yet 80 years later they want to use outdated tanks against even more modern technology. It’s lunacy.
When Britain’s Challenger 2s arrive in Ukraine, they will pick off T55s as though in a fairground shooting gallery. And even if these Soviet tanks managed to hit a Challenger 2, it’s likely the crew wouldn’t even notice. A British tank round would probably go through two or three of them before it ran out of energy. It now makes complete sense why the Russians are trying to frame the rounds we are donating as biohazards (made as they are with harmless depleted uranium). They know they will decimate their “new” tank battalions, which will not be able to land a punch back.""I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Sounds like the only use for these tanks would be against a civilian population - basically crushing unarmed or lightly armed insurrection or just protest in a Tianamen Square type situation
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
I can not understand what he is trying to say about Kursk, can somebody interpret it for me as I read it as the T34 was out of date in 1943 and it was folly to send so many against the better German tanks.Stevo_666 said:Good article here on the stupidity or desperation of the Russians sending 1950's tanks into battle. Quoted a chunk in case it paywalled.
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/23/putins-shattered-army-will-never-recover/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr
"It is the latest sign of a serious, perhaps fatal, armour shortage among Putin’s forces. As a former tank commander, I cannot overstate the insanity of sending such outdated heavy weaponry to the front – the Russians must be truly desperate. Either that or they have lost the plot.
In the 21st century, these old tanks are little more than steel coffins. A modern rifle could pierce their armour; a drone or modern Western tank could do far worse. To a “tankie” like me, it’s the equivalent of a First World War biplane taking on a new stealth fighter. If I was a Russian tank commander – God forbid – and my commanding officer told me to fight in one of these museum pieces, I would stand to attention, turn to the right, salute, and march home.
The problem is that the Russian generals still believe their own propaganda. They believe in the myth of the indestructible Soviet tank rolling across Europe. Before the invasion, Russia’s minister of defence, Sergei Shoigu, invested heavily in a fleet of modern tanks when he reformed the armed forces. Their effectiveness was impeded by corruption, however, and then they were largely destroyed in the initial invasion last year. Once they were gone, they were gone for good and impossible to replace. I said at the time it was hard to see how the Russians could ever truly recover; so it has proved. And far from giving the Russians any chance of victory, these relics will only hasten their defeat.
Critics of my view will argue that it’s quantity not quality that matters; that even these relics in large numbers are a daunting prospect on the battlefield. Nonsense. One need only study the Battle of Kursk in 1943 – the largest tank battle in history – to see the folly of sending large numbers of old tanks against superior models and advanced anti-tank weaponry. The Russians lost many hundreds of T34s in that hideous battle, yet 80 years later they want to use outdated tanks against even more modern technology. It’s lunacy.
When Britain’s Challenger 2s arrive in Ukraine, they will pick off T55s as though in a fairground shooting gallery. And even if these Soviet tanks managed to hit a Challenger 2, it’s likely the crew wouldn’t even notice. A British tank round would probably go through two or three of them before it ran out of energy. It now makes complete sense why the Russians are trying to frame the rounds we are donating as biohazards (made as they are with harmless depleted uranium). They know they will decimate their “new” tank battalions, which will not be able to land a punch back."
But my understanding is that the T34 was introduced in 1940 so was not out of date and more importantly that Russia won the battle of Kursk.0 -
It's very confused.
Even when Russia was winning it's mass assault approach always lost significantly more men and material than the Germans, and on an individual basis the Russian, in any context, was worse equipped and trained.0 -
Yeah, couldn't work that out but it was a Soviet victory wasn't it?
I'm dubious about some of the stuff we read about how bad the Russian resources are, we've been hearing it for months but whilst there were a few successful counter-attacks the Russians aren't exactly retreating in droves. I suspect we are all a bit guilty of accepting propoganda we want to hear.0 -
A quick google tells me Hitler was waiting for modern tanks, but ended up sending old ones into the battle. That explains this sentence "One need only study the Battle of Kursk in 1943 – the largest tank battle in history – to see the folly of sending large numbers of old tanks against superior models and advanced anti-tank weaponry. "surrey_commuter said:
I can not understand what he is trying to say about Kursk, can somebody interpret it for me as I read it as the T34 was out of date in 1943 and it was folly to send so many against the better German tanks.Stevo_666 said:Good article here on the stupidity or desperation of the Russians sending 1950's tanks into battle. Quoted a chunk in case it paywalled.
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/23/putins-shattered-army-will-never-recover/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr
"It is the latest sign of a serious, perhaps fatal, armour shortage among Putin’s forces. As a former tank commander, I cannot overstate the insanity of sending such outdated heavy weaponry to the front – the Russians must be truly desperate. Either that or they have lost the plot.
In the 21st century, these old tanks are little more than steel coffins. A modern rifle could pierce their armour; a drone or modern Western tank could do far worse. To a “tankie” like me, it’s the equivalent of a First World War biplane taking on a new stealth fighter. If I was a Russian tank commander – God forbid – and my commanding officer told me to fight in one of these museum pieces, I would stand to attention, turn to the right, salute, and march home.
The problem is that the Russian generals still believe their own propaganda. They believe in the myth of the indestructible Soviet tank rolling across Europe. Before the invasion, Russia’s minister of defence, Sergei Shoigu, invested heavily in a fleet of modern tanks when he reformed the armed forces. Their effectiveness was impeded by corruption, however, and then they were largely destroyed in the initial invasion last year. Once they were gone, they were gone for good and impossible to replace. I said at the time it was hard to see how the Russians could ever truly recover; so it has proved. And far from giving the Russians any chance of victory, these relics will only hasten their defeat.
Critics of my view will argue that it’s quantity not quality that matters; that even these relics in large numbers are a daunting prospect on the battlefield. Nonsense. One need only study the Battle of Kursk in 1943 – the largest tank battle in history – to see the folly of sending large numbers of old tanks against superior models and advanced anti-tank weaponry. The Russians lost many hundreds of T34s in that hideous battle, yet 80 years later they want to use outdated tanks against even more modern technology. It’s lunacy.
When Britain’s Challenger 2s arrive in Ukraine, they will pick off T55s as though in a fairground shooting gallery. And even if these Soviet tanks managed to hit a Challenger 2, it’s likely the crew wouldn’t even notice. A British tank round would probably go through two or three of them before it ran out of energy. It now makes complete sense why the Russians are trying to frame the rounds we are donating as biohazards (made as they are with harmless depleted uranium). They know they will decimate their “new” tank battalions, which will not be able to land a punch back."
But my understanding is that the T34 was introduced in 1940 so was not out of date and more importantly that Russia won the battle of Kursk.
Then I'm not sure, but I'm going with something like this: even though the Russians had a big technological advantage, the Germans still managed to destroy several hundred T34s with their primitive weapons. Imagine how the T34s will suffer against modern weaponry.
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I think Ukraine has amazing control of the media but it does mean you can't trust either side.Pross said:Yeah, couldn't work that out but it was a Soviet victory wasn't it?
I'm dubious about some of the stuff we read about how bad the Russian resources are, we've been hearing it for months but whilst there were a few successful counter-attacks the Russians aren't exactly retreating in droves. I suspect we are all a bit guilty of accepting propoganda we want to hear.0 -
My historical knowledge of that battle is pretty much non existent but I think the main point still stands i.e. these relics are going to get badly spanked if they come up against Leopards and Challengers in a tank battle."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
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My simplistic understanding was that the Russians designed a "good" tank (T34) that was easy to mass produce, train on, maintain and repair, USA did likewise with the Sherman. The Germans had the best tanks (Tiger and Panther) but not in large enough numbers and operating a multitude of tanks brought it's own problems.TheBigBean said:
A quick google tells me Hitler was waiting for modern tanks, but ended up sending old ones into the battle. That explains this sentence "One need only study the Battle of Kursk in 1943 – the largest tank battle in history – to see the folly of sending large numbers of old tanks against superior models and advanced anti-tank weaponry. "surrey_commuter said:
I can not understand what he is trying to say about Kursk, can somebody interpret it for me as I read it as the T34 was out of date in 1943 and it was folly to send so many against the better German tanks.Stevo_666 said:Good article here on the stupidity or desperation of the Russians sending 1950's tanks into battle. Quoted a chunk in case it paywalled.
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/03/23/putins-shattered-army-will-never-recover/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr
"It is the latest sign of a serious, perhaps fatal, armour shortage among Putin’s forces. As a former tank commander, I cannot overstate the insanity of sending such outdated heavy weaponry to the front – the Russians must be truly desperate. Either that or they have lost the plot.
In the 21st century, these old tanks are little more than steel coffins. A modern rifle could pierce their armour; a drone or modern Western tank could do far worse. To a “tankie” like me, it’s the equivalent of a First World War biplane taking on a new stealth fighter. If I was a Russian tank commander – God forbid – and my commanding officer told me to fight in one of these museum pieces, I would stand to attention, turn to the right, salute, and march home.
The problem is that the Russian generals still believe their own propaganda. They believe in the myth of the indestructible Soviet tank rolling across Europe. Before the invasion, Russia’s minister of defence, Sergei Shoigu, invested heavily in a fleet of modern tanks when he reformed the armed forces. Their effectiveness was impeded by corruption, however, and then they were largely destroyed in the initial invasion last year. Once they were gone, they were gone for good and impossible to replace. I said at the time it was hard to see how the Russians could ever truly recover; so it has proved. And far from giving the Russians any chance of victory, these relics will only hasten their defeat.
Critics of my view will argue that it’s quantity not quality that matters; that even these relics in large numbers are a daunting prospect on the battlefield. Nonsense. One need only study the Battle of Kursk in 1943 – the largest tank battle in history – to see the folly of sending large numbers of old tanks against superior models and advanced anti-tank weaponry. The Russians lost many hundreds of T34s in that hideous battle, yet 80 years later they want to use outdated tanks against even more modern technology. It’s lunacy.
When Britain’s Challenger 2s arrive in Ukraine, they will pick off T55s as though in a fairground shooting gallery. And even if these Soviet tanks managed to hit a Challenger 2, it’s likely the crew wouldn’t even notice. A British tank round would probably go through two or three of them before it ran out of energy. It now makes complete sense why the Russians are trying to frame the rounds we are donating as biohazards (made as they are with harmless depleted uranium). They know they will decimate their “new” tank battalions, which will not be able to land a punch back."
But my understanding is that the T34 was introduced in 1940 so was not out of date and more importantly that Russia won the battle of Kursk.
Then I'm not sure, but I'm going with something like this: even though the Russians had a big technological advantage, the Germans still managed to destroy several hundred T34s with their primitive weapons. Imagine how the T34s will suffer against modern weaponry.
Mass producing a good tank obviously played to their manufacturing strengths and whilst losses mayhave been relatively high it can not be argued that it was successful0 -
The Germans didn't have primitive armour at Kursk - during the battle they were using the most up to date Tiger I and Panther tanks as well as self propelled gun monsters like the Elefant. The problem with these new weapons for the Germans (apart from the opposing Russian numbers) were the technical and support issues caused that they required to keep running. However it's true that the largest number of tanks deployed by Germany were earlier Panzer III and IV.TheBigBean said:the Germans still managed to destroy several hundred T34s with their primitive weapons.
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we seem to have an unusual CS consensus in that the DT author either knows nothing about the battle of Kursk and/or is unable to get his view across because of his poor writing skillsthegreatdivide said:
The Germans didn't have primitive armour at Kursk - during the battle they were using the most up to date Tiger I and Panther tanks as well as self propelled gun monsters like the Elefant. The problem with these new weapons for the Germans (apart from the opposing Russian numbers) were the technical and support issues caused that they required to keep running. However it's true that the largest number of tanks deployed by Germany were earlier Panzer III and IV.TheBigBean said:the Germans still managed to destroy several hundred T34s with their primitive weapons.
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Definitely ignore me on the subject.0
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General von Manstein was performing his usual heroics at Kursk and I think if you dipped into him you would find him fascinating. As well as being arguably the greatest general of WW2 he also avoided hanging at as with the Soviets clamming up he got to write the history of the Eastern frontTheBigBean said:Definitely ignore me on the subject.
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Also got convicted of a tonne of war crimes and really led the creation of the (false) myth that the Wehrmacht was not involved in the holocaust.surrey_commuter said:
General von Manstein was performing his usual heroics at Kursk and I think if you dipped into him you would find him fascinating. As well as being arguably the greatest general of WW2 he also avoided hanging at as with the Soviets clamming up he got to write the history of the Eastern frontTheBigBean said:Definitely ignore me on the subject.
Swings & roundabouts0 -
if you had read the second half of my second sentence you would see that you are echoing my thoughts.rick_chasey said:
Also got convicted of a tonne of war crimes and really led the creation of the (false) myth that the Wehrmacht was not involved in the holocaust.surrey_commuter said:
General von Manstein was performing his usual heroics at Kursk and I think if you dipped into him you would find him fascinating. As well as being arguably the greatest general of WW2 he also avoided hanging at as with the Soviets clamming up he got to write the history of the Eastern frontTheBigBean said:Definitely ignore me on the subject.
Swings & roundabouts
He may have been convicted but for a man who could have swung I woud say that serving a few years jailtime is getting away with it.
What they were doing to soviet citizens was not counted as the holocaust0 -
Sure. No disagreement.
I get a bit annoyed with the military history nerds when they get all excited over him. I can see why - he really was very good at the army bit, but he was a proper wrongun.
His failed rescue at Stalingrad was pretty incredible too.
Brits would do well to remember he was very much in favour of invading the UK too.0 -
A lot of that's just weather at the moment isnt it..? Better to hold still until you can travel cross country quickly.Pross said:Yeah, couldn't work that out but it was a Soviet victory wasn't it?
I'm dubious about some of the stuff we read about how bad the Russian resources are, we've been hearing it for months but whilst there were a few successful counter-attacks the Russians aren't exactly retreating in droves. I suspect we are all a bit guilty of accepting propoganda we want to hear.We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
If this is genuine, it would suggest that there might be a little confidence growing...
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The Oryx list of Russian equipment losses has now reached 10k
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html0 -
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Not sure whether to put this in the intrigue thread or this thread.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings
Came across this in Belton's book "Putin's People" (it's good), and Belton basically accuses Putin and the KGB or literally bombing hundreds of Russian civilains to their death to expediate his path to president.
Absolutely nuts. Literally sticking gigantic bombs in apartment basements and setting them off as they sleep.0
