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Comments

  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,475
    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    Urgh, this is your Brexit argument all over again. Call it what you want but Russia is not just attacking Ukraine.
    I sometimes think I live in an alternative universe or you lot are winding me up.

    Just attacking Ukraine is exactly what Russia is doing. How many tonnes have they dropped on Poland or Moldova?
    They are effectively laying siege to Europe and the other countries that rely on Ukrainian food exports. Dropping bombs and shelling are not the only means of warfare.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,648
    Pross said:

    rick_chasey said:

    And yet you were the one suggesting that for civilians in this country there is no real difference to the UK physically being at war with Russia?
    This is a nonsense argument. How many wars has the US been in recently that have resulted in their civilians being bombed?
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited September 2022


    Falling out of a closed window, no doubt.
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    Urgh, this is your Brexit argument all over again. Call it what you want but Russia is not just attacking Ukraine.
    I sometimes think I live in an alternative universe or you lot are winding me up.

    Just attacking Ukraine is exactly what Russia is doing. How many tonnes have they dropped on Poland or Moldova?
    They are effectively laying siege to Europe and the other countries that rely on Ukrainian food exports. Dropping bombs and shelling are not the only means of warfare.
    I could have sworn we were laying siege to Russia.

    What other countries are we at war with, specifically;
    Iran
    N. Korea
    Cuba
    Syria
    Yemen
    Afghanistan
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,475
    edited September 2022
    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    Urgh, this is your Brexit argument all over again. Call it what you want but Russia is not just attacking Ukraine.
    I sometimes think I live in an alternative universe or you lot are winding me up.

    Just attacking Ukraine is exactly what Russia is doing. How many tonnes have they dropped on Poland or Moldova?
    They are effectively laying siege to Europe and the other countries that rely on Ukrainian food exports. Dropping bombs and shelling are not the only means of warfare.
    I could have sworn we were laying siege to Russia.

    What other countries are we at war with, specifically;
    Iran
    N. Korea
    Cuba
    Syria
    Yemen
    Afghanistan
    They have cut off the major part of Europe's gas supply and a large part of the world's grain supply. Forcing Abramovich to sell Chelsea isn't really in the same league. Agreed that the armed conflict is limited to Ukraine so far but I think it's a bit odd to ignore the non-military attacks on the rest of Europe.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Which one of those is a major player on the same continent as the UK?
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    Urgh, this is your Brexit argument all over again. Call it what you want but Russia is not just attacking Ukraine.
    I sometimes think I live in an alternative universe or you lot are winding me up.

    Just attacking Ukraine is exactly what Russia is doing. How many tonnes have they dropped on Poland or Moldova?
    They are effectively laying siege to Europe and the other countries that rely on Ukrainian food exports. Dropping bombs and shelling are not the only means of warfare.
    I could have sworn we were laying siege to Russia.

    What other countries are we at war with, specifically;
    Iran
    N. Korea
    Cuba
    Syria
    Yemen
    Afghanistan
    They have cut off the major part of Europe's gas supply and a large part of the world's grain supply. Forcing Abramovich to sell Chelsea isn't really in the same league. Agreed that the armed conflict is limited to Ukraine so far but I think it's a bit odd to ignore the non-military attacks on the rest of Europe.
    Lol - we started it by freezing them out of the international financial markets and putting massive tariffs on their exports
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rick_chasey said:

    Which one of those is a major player on the same continent as the UK?


    Never answer a question with a question

    By your criteria which are we at war with?
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,475
    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    Urgh, this is your Brexit argument all over again. Call it what you want but Russia is not just attacking Ukraine.
    I sometimes think I live in an alternative universe or you lot are winding me up.

    Just attacking Ukraine is exactly what Russia is doing. How many tonnes have they dropped on Poland or Moldova?
    They are effectively laying siege to Europe and the other countries that rely on Ukrainian food exports. Dropping bombs and shelling are not the only means of warfare.
    I could have sworn we were laying siege to Russia.

    What other countries are we at war with, specifically;
    Iran
    N. Korea
    Cuba
    Syria
    Yemen
    Afghanistan
    They have cut off the major part of Europe's gas supply and a large part of the world's grain supply. Forcing Abramovich to sell Chelsea isn't really in the same league. Agreed that the armed conflict is limited to Ukraine so far but I think it's a bit odd to ignore the non-military attacks on the rest of Europe.
    Lol - we started it by freezing them out of the international financial markets and putting massive tariffs on their exports
    Russia started this.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,600
    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    Urgh, this is your Brexit argument all over again. Call it what you want but Russia is not just attacking Ukraine.
    I sometimes think I live in an alternative universe or you lot are winding me up.

    Just attacking Ukraine is exactly what Russia is doing. How many tonnes have they dropped on Poland or Moldova?
    They are effectively laying siege to Europe and the other countries that rely on Ukrainian food exports. Dropping bombs and shelling are not the only means of warfare.
    I could have sworn we were laying siege to Russia.

    What other countries are we at war with, specifically;
    Iran
    N. Korea
    Cuba
    Syria
    Yemen
    Afghanistan
    They have cut off the major part of Europe's gas supply and a large part of the world's grain supply. Forcing Abramovich to sell Chelsea isn't really in the same league. Agreed that the armed conflict is limited to Ukraine so far but I think it's a bit odd to ignore the non-military attacks on the rest of Europe.
    Lol - we started it by freezing them out of the international financial markets and putting massive tariffs on their exports
    Russia started this.
    I do find it bizzare that Russia's crimes were heinous enough to remove them from the G7, but not to stop Germany buying tons of gas from them.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,102
    Jezyboy said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    Urgh, this is your Brexit argument all over again. Call it what you want but Russia is not just attacking Ukraine.
    I sometimes think I live in an alternative universe or you lot are winding me up.

    Just attacking Ukraine is exactly what Russia is doing. How many tonnes have they dropped on Poland or Moldova?
    They are effectively laying siege to Europe and the other countries that rely on Ukrainian food exports. Dropping bombs and shelling are not the only means of warfare.
    I could have sworn we were laying siege to Russia.

    What other countries are we at war with, specifically;
    Iran
    N. Korea
    Cuba
    Syria
    Yemen
    Afghanistan
    They have cut off the major part of Europe's gas supply and a large part of the world's grain supply. Forcing Abramovich to sell Chelsea isn't really in the same league. Agreed that the armed conflict is limited to Ukraine so far but I think it's a bit odd to ignore the non-military attacks on the rest of Europe.
    Lol - we started it by freezing them out of the international financial markets and putting massive tariffs on their exports
    Russia started this.
    I do find it bizzare that Russia's crimes were heinous enough to remove them from the G7, but not to stop Germany buying tons of gas from them.
    Oh god this is trite.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,475
    Jezyboy said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    Urgh, this is your Brexit argument all over again. Call it what you want but Russia is not just attacking Ukraine.
    I sometimes think I live in an alternative universe or you lot are winding me up.

    Just attacking Ukraine is exactly what Russia is doing. How many tonnes have they dropped on Poland or Moldova?
    They are effectively laying siege to Europe and the other countries that rely on Ukrainian food exports. Dropping bombs and shelling are not the only means of warfare.
    I could have sworn we were laying siege to Russia.

    What other countries are we at war with, specifically;
    Iran
    N. Korea
    Cuba
    Syria
    Yemen
    Afghanistan
    They have cut off the major part of Europe's gas supply and a large part of the world's grain supply. Forcing Abramovich to sell Chelsea isn't really in the same league. Agreed that the armed conflict is limited to Ukraine so far but I think it's a bit odd to ignore the non-military attacks on the rest of Europe.
    Lol - we started it by freezing them out of the international financial markets and putting massive tariffs on their exports
    Russia started this.
    I do find it bizzare that Russia's crimes were heinous enough to remove them from the G7, but not to stop Germany buying tons of gas from them.
    One was relatively painless for the other nations. Disentangling yourself from a major strategic error is more difficult.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Jezyboy said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    Urgh, this is your Brexit argument all over again. Call it what you want but Russia is not just attacking Ukraine.
    I sometimes think I live in an alternative universe or you lot are winding me up.

    Just attacking Ukraine is exactly what Russia is doing. How many tonnes have they dropped on Poland or Moldova?
    They are effectively laying siege to Europe and the other countries that rely on Ukrainian food exports. Dropping bombs and shelling are not the only means of warfare.
    I could have sworn we were laying siege to Russia.

    What other countries are we at war with, specifically;
    Iran
    N. Korea
    Cuba
    Syria
    Yemen
    Afghanistan
    They have cut off the major part of Europe's gas supply and a large part of the world's grain supply. Forcing Abramovich to sell Chelsea isn't really in the same league. Agreed that the armed conflict is limited to Ukraine so far but I think it's a bit odd to ignore the non-military attacks on the rest of Europe.
    Lol - we started it by freezing them out of the international financial markets and putting massive tariffs on their exports
    Russia started this.
    I do find it bizzare that Russia's crimes were heinous enough to remove them from the G7, but not to stop Germany buying tons of gas from them.
    Jezyboy said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    Urgh, this is your Brexit argument all over again. Call it what you want but Russia is not just attacking Ukraine.
    I sometimes think I live in an alternative universe or you lot are winding me up.

    Just attacking Ukraine is exactly what Russia is doing. How many tonnes have they dropped on Poland or Moldova?
    They are effectively laying siege to Europe and the other countries that rely on Ukrainian food exports. Dropping bombs and shelling are not the only means of warfare.
    I could have sworn we were laying siege to Russia.

    What other countries are we at war with, specifically;
    Iran
    N. Korea
    Cuba
    Syria
    Yemen
    Afghanistan
    They have cut off the major part of Europe's gas supply and a large part of the world's grain supply. Forcing Abramovich to sell Chelsea isn't really in the same league. Agreed that the armed conflict is limited to Ukraine so far but I think it's a bit odd to ignore the non-military attacks on the rest of Europe.
    Lol - we started it by freezing them out of the international financial markets and putting massive tariffs on their exports
    Russia started this.
    I do find it bizzare that Russia's crimes were heinous enough to remove them from the G7, but not to stop Germany buying tons of gas from them.
    According to people on here Russia turning off the tap on gas supplies was an act of war. If we followed your logic then would Germany be declaring war on itself.

    For sanctions to be effective they will cause you pain but it seems pointless to impose sanctions that inflict greater pain on yourself
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    You're being a bit naieve if you think Russian international energy policy isn't part of the war effort.
    _
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,102
    I'm wondering why all of the Russian state reserves that was in foreign banks isn't being used.

    Probably this is a naive question and I've not understood something very basic.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rick_chasey said:

    You're being a bit naieve if you think Russian international energy policy isn't part of the war effort.

    not sure who that is aimed at but in case it is me then the solution is hardly to turn off the tap yourself
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    First.Aspect said:

    I'm wondering why all of the Russian state reserves that was in foreign banks isn't being used.

    Probably this is a naive question and I've not understood something very basic.

    used by who?

    If you mean the West then it is because it has been frozen and not stolen.

    If you go around stealing other countries deposits then other countries are less likely to deposit money with you and you need it to fund your permanent deficits
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    You're being a bit naieve if you think Russian international energy policy isn't part of the war effort.

    not sure who that is aimed at but in case it is me then the solution is hardly to turn off the tap yourself
    So you think UK should be buying Russian oil & gas?
    _
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,600
    First.Aspect said:

    Jezyboy said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    Urgh, this is your Brexit argument all over again. Call it what you want but Russia is not just attacking Ukraine.
    I sometimes think I live in an alternative universe or you lot are winding me up.

    Just attacking Ukraine is exactly what Russia is doing. How many tonnes have they dropped on Poland or Moldova?
    They are effectively laying siege to Europe and the other countries that rely on Ukrainian food exports. Dropping bombs and shelling are not the only means of warfare.
    I could have sworn we were laying siege to Russia.

    What other countries are we at war with, specifically;
    Iran
    N. Korea
    Cuba
    Syria
    Yemen
    Afghanistan
    They have cut off the major part of Europe's gas supply and a large part of the world's grain supply. Forcing Abramovich to sell Chelsea isn't really in the same league. Agreed that the armed conflict is limited to Ukraine so far but I think it's a bit odd to ignore the non-military attacks on the rest of Europe.
    Lol - we started it by freezing them out of the international financial markets and putting massive tariffs on their exports
    Russia started this.
    I do find it bizzare that Russia's crimes were heinous enough to remove them from the G7, but not to stop Germany buying tons of gas from them.
    Oh god this is trite.
    Meh it's a debate about "who started it" it's likely to veer into the trite.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,102
    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    You're being a bit naieve if you think Russian international energy policy isn't part of the war effort.

    not sure who that is aimed at but in case it is me then the solution is hardly to turn off the tap yourself
    That literally is the solution, it is just a question of when. If the condequence of doing so immediately is lots of hypothermic retirees or children with stunted brain development, the decision becomes quite nuanced.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    First.Aspect said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    You're being a bit naieve if you think Russian international energy policy isn't part of the war effort.

    not sure who that is aimed at but in case it is me then the solution is hardly to turn off the tap yourself
    That literally is the solution, it is just a question of when. If the condequence of doing so immediately is lots of hypothermic retirees or children with stunted brain development, the decision becomes quite nuanced.
    So the Russian threat to turn it off is effective because it risks damaging the European economies and destroying public support for Ukraine.

    Your solution is to turn off the gas so damaging the European economies and destroying public support for Ukraine.

    This way round germany has got storage levels up to 85% and are close to solving this winters problem.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,102
    surrey_commuter said:

    First.Aspect said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    You're being a bit naieve if you think Russian international energy policy isn't part of the war effort.

    not sure who that is aimed at but in case it is me then the solution is hardly to turn off the tap yourself
    That literally is the solution, it is just a question of when. If the condequence of doing so immediately is lots of hypothermic retirees or children with stunted brain development, the decision becomes quite nuanced.
    So the Russian threat to turn it off is effective because it risks damaging the European economies and destroying public support for Ukraine.

    Your solution is to turn off the gas so damaging the European economies and destroying public support for Ukraine.

    This way round germany has got storage levels up to 85% and are close to solving this winters problem.
    Aren't we agreeing?
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    You're being a bit naieve if you think Russian international energy policy isn't part of the war effort.

    not sure who that is aimed at but in case it is me then the solution is hardly to turn off the tap yourself
    So you think UK should be buying Russian oil & gas?
    whether the UK buys Russsian oil and gas would make no difference so yes we can not do so at minimal cost to ourselves.

    If you want sanctions to work then it is best to target things that disproportionately impact the other side
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 8,100
    The East must be getting some cheap natural resources at the moment.

    What about multinationals who have factories in the East, I guess there can't be any objection to them using these resources?

  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    focuszing723 said:

    The East must be getting some cheap natural resources at the moment.

    What about multinationals who have factories in the East, I guess there can't be any objection to them using these resources?

    gas is not easily transportable
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 8,100
    surrey_commuter said:

    focuszing723 said:

    The East must be getting some cheap natural resources at the moment.

    What about multinationals who have factories in the East, I guess there can't be any objection to them using these resources?

    gas is not easily transportable
    I'm Google lazy today. I would be surprised if they don't already have pipelines into Eastern Countries?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    LNG markets are obviously pretty stressed right now too.
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    focuszing723 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    focuszing723 said:

    The East must be getting some cheap natural resources at the moment.

    What about multinationals who have factories in the East, I guess there can't be any objection to them using these resources?

    gas is not easily transportable
    I'm Google lazy today. I would be surprised if they don't already have pipelines into Eastern Countries?
    I am sure they make more money exporting to Europe and by definition the markets in the East must already be supplied by somebody else
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 8,100
    edited September 2022
    surrey_commuter said:

    focuszing723 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    focuszing723 said:

    The East must be getting some cheap natural resources at the moment.

    What about multinationals who have factories in the East, I guess there can't be any objection to them using these resources?

    gas is not easily transportable
    I'm Google lazy today. I would be surprised if they don't already have pipelines into Eastern Countries?
    I am sure they make more money exporting to Europe and by definition the markets in the East must already be supplied by somebody else
    Oh, I'm sure, but if that's the direction of travel, then needs must. I guess the problem is too, that those business connections and demands will grow.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    focuszing723 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    focuszing723 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    focuszing723 said:

    The East must be getting some cheap natural resources at the moment.

    What about multinationals who have factories in the East, I guess there can't be any objection to them using these resources?

    gas is not easily transportable
    I'm Google lazy today. I would be surprised if they don't already have pipelines into Eastern Countries?
    I am sure they make more money exporting to Europe and by definition the markets in the East must already be supplied by somebody else
    Oh, I'm sure, but if that's the direction of travel, then needs must. I guess the problem is too, that those business connections and demands will grow.
    direction of travel is fine as it also allows Europe to source alternative means of supply.

    I guess I am just trying to point out the irony of us imposing anctions on Russia and them effectively joining in and then some posters thinking this unreasonable

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