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  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    edited August 2022
    surrey_commuter said:



    We really are not at war with Russia in any shape or form

    Yes we really are in almost every shape except the British Army actively fighting the Russians in Ukraine (therefore excluding training, special forces operations and individuals who have signed up themselves)

    Political, economic, (mis)information, cyber, spying, influence. It's been ongoing for over a decade.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,266
    We are not at war but we are involved in a war.
    Wars are expensive.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    In all seriousness with the scale of the crisis if the leaders don’t let the public understand that this is the sacrifice we have to make to protect the free world, we’re all screwed.
    _
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,102
    edited August 2022
    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    I am not sure Russia agrees fully with this, given the military support given to Ukraine. And I don't think anyone needs our agreement in order to be involved in a conflict with us.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    First.Aspect said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    I am not sure Russia agrees fully with this, given the military support given to Ukraine. And I don't think anyone needs our agreement in order to be involved in a conflict with us.
    You are going to have to trust me that you and Rick are the only two people in the world that think we are at war with Russia
  • mully79
    mully79 Posts: 904
    …
    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    In all seriousness with the scale of the crisis if the leaders don’t let the public understand that this is the sacrifice we have to make to protect the free world, we’re all screwed.
    I’m all for sacrifice but a bit of honesty wouldn’t go a miss. Its a bit hard to accept on face value that my 100% solar and wind produced carbon free electricity supply has quadrupled in price.
    Has the sun and wind got more expensive due to the war ?
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    In all seriousness with the scale of the crisis if the leaders don’t let the public understand that this is the sacrifice we have to make to protect the free world, we’re all screwed.
    that is fine but if they clearly spell that out, how much do you think the British public would be willing to pay per household to support Ukraine?

    of course it does raise the issue that we are not at war with Russia and for all of the posturing of the Little Englanders even if we stopped supporting Ukraine our problems would not go away
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,722
    It’s an economic war.
    It’s definitely not a war as traditionally defined, as some fundamental components are absent.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • Dorset_Boy
    Dorset_Boy Posts: 7,541
    surrey_commuter said:

    First.Aspect said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    I am not sure Russia agrees fully with this, given the military support given to Ukraine. And I don't think anyone needs our agreement in order to be involved in a conflict with us.
    You are going to have to trust me that you and Rick are the only two people in the world that think we are at war with Russia
    They are far, far from the only 2 people. I 100% agree with Rick on this, as do economic and financial analysts, and experts.

  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    blazing_saddles said:

    It’s an economic war.
    It’s definitely not a war as traditionally defined, as some fundamental components are absent.

    When did it start?

    What other countries are we at war with?
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,102
    edited August 2022
    surrey_commuter said:

    First.Aspect said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    I am not sure Russia agrees fully with this, given the military support given to Ukraine. And I don't think anyone needs our agreement in order to be involved in a conflict with us.
    You are going to have to trust me that you and Rick are the only two people in the world that think we are at war with Russia
    We aren't at war with Russia, but we are sponsoring one. Time will tell where that leads. Certainly not to a holiday in sochi any time soon if you have a UK passport.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,475
    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
  • mrb123
    mrb123 Posts: 4,810
    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    Was the Cold War a war?
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,475
    edited August 2022
    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    Urgh, this is your Brexit argument all over again. Call it what you want but Russia is not just attacking Ukraine.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    In all seriousness with the scale of the crisis if the leaders don’t let the public understand that this is the sacrifice we have to make to protect the free world, we’re all screwed.
    that is fine but if they clearly spell that out, how much do you think the British public would be willing to pay per household to support Ukraine?

    of course it does raise the issue that we are not at war with Russia and for all of the posturing of the Little Englanders even if we stopped supporting Ukraine our problems would not go away
    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    I asked in a different thread, other than British troops pulling the trigger and getting shot at, what is the difference for the average civilian experience?
    _
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,460
    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    In all seriousness with the scale of the crisis if the leaders don’t let the public understand that this is the sacrifice we have to make to protect the free world, we’re all screwed.
    that is fine but if they clearly spell that out, how much do you think the British public would be willing to pay per household to support Ukraine?

    of course it does raise the issue that we are not at war with Russia and for all of the posturing of the Little Englanders even if we stopped supporting Ukraine our problems would not go away
    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    I asked in a different thread, other than British troops pulling the trigger and getting shot at, what is the difference for the average civilian experience?
    Well we haven't got bombs falling on our towns and cities and if we were properly at war you would probably find you weren't remaining a civilian for much longer.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,266
    Are you guys really getting all bothered by the difference between "at" and "in".
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,460
    pblakeney said:

    Are you guys really getting all bothered by the difference between "at" and "in".

    Not me, we are definitely facing the consequences of (rightly in my opinion) supporting Ukraine but to suggest that those consequences are no different to the average civilian than they would be if we were in a physical war with Russia is plain stupid.
  • skyblueamateur
    skyblueamateur Posts: 1,498
    If we are at war then would Brown's idea of re-nationalising the energy industry until the market stabilises i.e. the war is over be welcomed?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited August 2022
    skyblueamateur said:

    If we are at war then would Brown's idea of re-nationalising the energy industry until the market stabilises i.e. the war is over be welcomed?

    But what would you be renationalising? A middle man which already has its margins capped?

    Not sure you could afford to buy shell at 170bn GBP. And I don’t think investment in oil & gas is a good long term investment - and you’d get moral hazard - the more the govt does to wean off fossil fuels the worse the investment looks.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    _
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,460
    rick_chasey said:

    And yet you were the one suggesting that for civilians in this country there is no real difference to the UK physically being at war with Russia?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Pross said:

    rick_chasey said:

    And yet you were the one suggesting that for civilians in this country there is no real difference to the UK physically being at war with Russia?
    I think there is a misunderstanding around what I was trying to say if you’ve come to this conclusion
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    mrb123 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    Was the Cold War a war?
    No it was a Cold War, it was called that to differentiate it from an actual war
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    Urgh, this is your Brexit argument all over again. Call it what you want but Russia is not just attacking Ukraine.
    I sometimes think I live in an alternative universe or you lot are winding me up.

    Just attacking Ukraine is exactly what Russia is doing. How many tonnes have they dropped on Poland or Moldova?
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rick_chasey said:

    Pross said:

    rick_chasey said:

    And yet you were the one suggesting that for civilians in this country there is no real difference to the UK physically being at war with Russia?
    I think there is a misunderstanding around what I was trying to say if you’ve come to this conclusion

    Then explain what you mean because to me being at war with Russia is pretty binary.

    On a scale of 1-100 how much do you worry about being bombed?

    Would you share your opinion with a Ukrainian refugee and would you excuse them going mad at you?
  • mrb123
    mrb123 Posts: 4,810
    surrey_commuter said:

    mrb123 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    Was the Cold War a war?
    No it was a Cold War, it was called that to differentiate it from an actual war
    They probably shouldn't have used the word war. Makes it all very confusing.

  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,243
    mrb123 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    mrb123 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rjsterry said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Apart from the actual fighting but in every other sense we are.

    Economically we most certainly are. This crisis is directly caused by the war.

    so apart from declaring war on Russia or them declaring war on us and apart from us not sinking any of their ships, shooting down a single plane or even firing a single bullet or them doing the same to us.

    We really are not at war with Russia
    Slightly disappointed that you are following the whole 'special operation' nonsense. We were happy referring to it as a Cold War, but now the fighting is actually in our continent rather than Central Asia, it's not a war?
    I did not say Ukraine is not at war with Russia. Being invaded is a pretty good definition of being at war.

    My argument is that the UK is not at war with Russia
    Was the Cold War a war?
    No it was a Cold War, it was called that to differentiate it from an actual war
    They probably shouldn't have used the word war. Makes it all very confusing.


    There's a war on woke, dontcha know?
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois

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