Poo tin... Put@in...
Comments
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Adding fuel to it, the Soviet Union only collapsed 31 years ago, so a large subset of the population have gone from one autocracy into another. And because the collapse was economic rather than political, the idea that "we used to live better under Stalin" isn't dead.
Of course, Rick will argue that the average Russian had the chance to check things abroad. To get information from abroad. Well, I've got the feeling (based on personal anecdotical evidence) that proficiency in English isn't particularly widespread amongst Russians. Definitely not what you'd see in the Netherlands. I mean, for crying out loud, ever tried to speak in English to someone in Spain, a nation whose 15% GDP comes from tourism? So that leaves us with russian-speaking countries and expats. I know for a fact that russian expat blogs have had an... interesting life over the last few years, with at least two platform migrations.
And finally, the problem some of us have is that "Some cultures are more prone to violence" is a xenophobic comment, that can be adapted pritti much unchanged to syrians, turks, afghans fleeing.
EDIT: And regardless of the above, the Russians behind all these atrocities should stand to trial for their horrific actions in Bucha.0 -
Some interesting analysis in this article. Amongst other things it points out that the Russian's only really held the roads in all those contested and controlled areas that the majority of maps showed. With the exception of the towns and cities on the roads, the land between them wasn't controlled at all.
Also, as it moves further into spring there's going to be more cover for hit and run type action against Russians - a bit like the Bocage during the Normandy invasion.
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ever tried speaking any foreign to the majority of Brits?drhaggis said:Adding fuel to it, the Soviet Union only collapsed 31 years ago, so a large subset of the population have gone from one autocracy into another. And because the collapse was economic rather than political, the idea that "we used to live better under Stalin" isn't dead.
Of course, Rick will argue that the average Russian had the chance to check things abroad. To get information from abroad. Well, I've got the feeling (based on personal anecdotical evidence) that proficiency in English isn't particularly widespread amongst Russians. Definitely not what you'd see in the Netherlands. I mean, for crying out loud, ever tried to speak in English to someone in Spain, a nation whose 15% GDP comes from tourism? So that leaves us with russian-speaking countries and expats. I know for a fact that russian expat blogs have had an... interesting life over the last few years, with at least two platform migrations.
And finally, the problem some of us have is that "Some cultures are more prone to violence" is a xenophobic comment, that can be adapted pritti much unchanged to syrians, turks, afghans fleeing.
EDIT: And regardless of the above, the Russians behind all these atrocities should stand to trial for their horrific actions in Bucha.
this stuff works both ways.
we only generally follow English speaking media - how many know the European views of, say, Brexit or similar?.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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That was not the significance of the bocage.thegreatdivide said:Some interesting analysis in this article. Amongst other things it points out that the Russian's only really held the roads in all those contested and controlled areas that the majority of maps showed. With the exception of the towns and cities on the roads, the land between them wasn't controlled at all.
Also, as it moves further into spring there's going to be more cover for hit and run type action against Russians - a bit like the Bocage during the Normandy invasion.
Do we think more leaves outweighs the loss of mud?0 -
If you want to mis out the word "concept" in my post, your response would make more sense.blazing_saddles said:Dorset_Boy said:Rick: The concept of Ukraine as a part of Russia is as old as Russia itself, ....
Rick: Not really talking about validity but Ukraine *was* part of Russia for a long time in living memory...
No wonder no one understands what you are going on about in this thread when you contradict yourself every other post.Over the next 600 years, (from the 13th Century) the area was contested, divided, and ruled by external powers, including the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Austrian Empire, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire, and the Tsardom of Russia.
Central Ukraine has been partitioned between Russia and Poland. Western Ukraine was annexed from Poland in the 1939, with a little help from the Nazi's.
But yeah, it's always been part of Russia.
Also interesting to here the BBC corespondent in Moscow this morning, talking about how much the narrative of the war is state controlled, the blocking of most social media etc.
Basically saying that the average Russian is completely in the dark of what has taken place.
Since Alexis of Russia in the 17th Century Russia has fought over land that now constitutes Ukraine. That was in the Russo-Polish War in 1654
A century later Catherine the Great invaded Poland in 1792 which then spanned much of Ukraine an in a series of annexes took what is now the main rump of Ukraine.
You then get the first actual Ukrainian national identity formed into reality in 1917, a big civil war which eventually ends up wit the nation being resumed into what is now the Soviet Union, which it's then a part of until the end of the Union.
So look, I'm not remotely saying there is any legitimate claim Russia has over Ukraine, right? I don't think there is.
But this idea that it's an alien concept that plenty of Russians have come to only through propaganda is nonsense. Lots of Russians share Putin's view that the natural borders of Russia extend way beyond where the borders lie now, and that includes the Baltics, Ukraine, Poland, Belarus etc.0 -
Doesn't that depend on how much Russian armour has been destroyed during the muddy season?surrey_commuter said:
That was not the significance of the bocage.thegreatdivide said:Some interesting analysis in this article. Amongst other things it points out that the Russian's only really held the roads in all those contested and controlled areas that the majority of maps showed. With the exception of the towns and cities on the roads, the land between them wasn't controlled at all.
Also, as it moves further into spring there's going to be more cover for hit and run type action against Russians - a bit like the Bocage during the Normandy invasion.
Do we think more leaves outweighs the loss of mud?
This new freedom of movement only becomes significant if you have the resources to exploit the situation. From what we have already seen, many large units have been either wiped out or significantly impacted.
Ukrainian forces will be able to exploit increased cover, to attack smaller units.
Does it outweighs the loss of mud? I guess we will find out."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
The Bocage was hedgerow warfare - there's going to be a significant amount of field boundary hedges in the next few months.surrey_commuter said:That was not the significance of the bocage.
Edit - and a sh1t load more anti-tank weapons to hide in them.0 -
I think in hindsight the collective mistake the West has made is not enforcing a no fly zone and stating some basic red lines for Russia. Some of these could have been things such as you have a week to leave Ukraine post no fly zone enforcement. After that any military assets you have in Ukraine are fair game and here is a map. The international community is in broad agreement that this is an illegal war and a breach of Ukraines sovereignty. This leads to the logical conclusion that if this is allowed to happen then what is the point in international organisations other than for some very well paid jobs talking nonsense. Was Putin really going to be stupid enough to launch attacks outside Ukraine in response. Was he really going to be stupid enough to launch a nuclear war. I don't think China and his other mates would be so keen on supporting that. The Chinese might have a problem maintaining control in a nuclear winter given they are already losing support for their zero covid strategy two years in.
We are so scared of poking a bear we instead let him in the tent and are not bargaining with him with our left over lunch box. I wonder when we are going to run out of food.
Russia should be kicked off international institutions. What are they going to do about it. Start another one with South Korea and Belarus.0 -
How much of the damage is being inflicted by air?
Put another way, where is the shelling of Mariupol coming from, given its a port city?
Genuine question - I don't know.0 -
what you are talking about is declaring war on Russia. As the West is not an entity that can declare war then who exactly do you think should be enforcing this no-fly zone and declaring war on Russia?john80 said:I think in hindsight the collective mistake the West has made is not enforcing a no fly zone and stating some basic red lines for Russia. Some of these could have been things such as you have a week to leave Ukraine post no fly zone enforcement. After that any military assets you have in Ukraine are fair game and here is a map. The international community is in broad agreement that this is an illegal war and a breach of Ukraines sovereignty. This leads to the logical conclusion that if this is allowed to happen then what is the point in international organisations other than for some very well paid jobs talking nonsense. Was Putin really going to be stupid enough to launch attacks outside Ukraine in response. Was he really going to be stupid enough to launch a nuclear war. I don't think China and his other mates would be so keen on supporting that. The Chinese might have a problem maintaining control in a nuclear winter given they are already losing support for their zero covid strategy two years in.
We are so scared of poking a bear we instead let him in the tent and are not bargaining with him with our left over lunch box. I wonder when we are going to run out of food.
Russia should be kicked off international institutions. What are they going to do about it. Start another one with South Korea and Belarus.0 -
I think the suggestion has been that it hasn't been the Russian airforce carrying out the shelling. Whether their navy are doing it as well as their land forces I don't know and haven't heard anything.First.Aspect said:How much of the damage is being inflicted by air?
Put another way, where is the shelling of Mariupol coming from, given its a port city?
Genuine question - I don't know.
The other issue with a no fly zone that has been raised is that it doesn't just apply to the Russians.0 -
The west. Somebody else, anybody else, but not us. Obs.surrey_commuter said:
what you are talking about is declaring war on Russia. As the West is not an entity that can declare war then who exactly do you think should be enforcing this no-fly zone and declaring war on Russia?john80 said:I think in hindsight the collective mistake the West has made is not enforcing a no fly zone and stating some basic red lines for Russia. Some of these could have been things such as you have a week to leave Ukraine post no fly zone enforcement. After that any military assets you have in Ukraine are fair game and here is a map. The international community is in broad agreement that this is an illegal war and a breach of Ukraines sovereignty. This leads to the logical conclusion that if this is allowed to happen then what is the point in international organisations other than for some very well paid jobs talking nonsense. Was Putin really going to be stupid enough to launch attacks outside Ukraine in response. Was he really going to be stupid enough to launch a nuclear war. I don't think China and his other mates would be so keen on supporting that. The Chinese might have a problem maintaining control in a nuclear winter given they are already losing support for their zero covid strategy two years in.
We are so scared of poking a bear we instead let him in the tent and are not bargaining with him with our left over lunch box. I wonder when we are going to run out of food.
Russia should be kicked off international institutions. What are they going to do about it. Start another one with South Korea and Belarus.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
john80 said:
I
Russia should be kicked off international institutions. What are they going to do about it. Start another one with South Korea and Belarus.
Not sure South Korea would be keen so probably not.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Yeah, pretty much what I was driving at.Dorset_Boy said:
I think the suggestion has been that it hasn't been the Russian airforce carrying out the shelling. Whether their navy are doing it as well as their land forces I don't know and haven't heard anything.First.Aspect said:How much of the damage is being inflicted by air?
Put another way, where is the shelling of Mariupol coming from, given its a port city?
Genuine question - I don't know.
The other issue with a no fly zone that has been raised is that it doesn't just apply to the Russians.
Even Ukraine seems to have stopped asking for it now.0 -
John doesn't care about who is doing the fighting so long as its not him, tbh.surrey_commuter said:
what you are talking about is declaring war on Russia. As the West is not an entity that can declare war then who exactly do you think should be enforcing this no-fly zone and declaring war on Russia?john80 said:I think in hindsight the collective mistake the West has made is not enforcing a no fly zone and stating some basic red lines for Russia. Some of these could have been things such as you have a week to leave Ukraine post no fly zone enforcement. After that any military assets you have in Ukraine are fair game and here is a map. The international community is in broad agreement that this is an illegal war and a breach of Ukraines sovereignty. This leads to the logical conclusion that if this is allowed to happen then what is the point in international organisations other than for some very well paid jobs talking nonsense. Was Putin really going to be stupid enough to launch attacks outside Ukraine in response. Was he really going to be stupid enough to launch a nuclear war. I don't think China and his other mates would be so keen on supporting that. The Chinese might have a problem maintaining control in a nuclear winter given they are already losing support for their zero covid strategy two years in.
We are so scared of poking a bear we instead let him in the tent and are not bargaining with him with our left over lunch box. I wonder when we are going to run out of food.
Russia should be kicked off international institutions. What are they going to do about it. Start another one with South Korea and Belarus.
he'll be going on about the blitz spirit and how "we" beat hitler soon..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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GRAD rockets and the Russian long range artillery has a range of around 40/45km - their MSTA self propelled guns can fire from as far away as 25/30km. The GRAD and MSTA can 'scoot and shoot' so they'll be moving about all the time.First.Aspect said:How much of the damage is being inflicted by air?
Put another way, where is the shelling of Mariupol coming from, given its a port city?
Genuine question - I don't know.0 -
only way to knock them out is with air power/drones which is what Ukraine has been asking for.thegreatdivide said:
GRAD rockets and the Russian long range artillery has a range of around 40/45km - their MSTA self propelled guns can fire from as far away as 25/30km. The GRAD and MSTA can 'scoot and shoot' so they'll be moving about all the time.First.Aspect said:How much of the damage is being inflicted by air?
Put another way, where is the shelling of Mariupol coming from, given its a port city?
Genuine question - I don't know..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Logical but not compatible with a no fly zone.MattFalle said:
only way to knock them out is with air power/drones which is what Ukraine has been asking for.thegreatdivide said:
GRAD rockets and the Russian long range artillery has a range of around 40/45km - their MSTA self propelled guns can fire from as far away as 25/30km. The GRAD and MSTA can 'scoot and shoot' so they'll be moving about all the time.First.Aspect said:How much of the damage is being inflicted by air?
Put another way, where is the shelling of Mariupol coming from, given its a port city?
Genuine question - I don't know.
Maybe that's why they've stopped asking for one.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
No fly zone would only be sensible if Russia had air superiority over Ukraine, which they don't. As long as Ukraine can fly aircraft and UAVs over their own territory, a no fly zone would be counter productive.pblakeney said:
Logical but not compatible with a no fly zone.MattFalle said:
only way to knock them out is with air power/drones which is what Ukraine has been asking for.thegreatdivide said:
GRAD rockets and the Russian long range artillery has a range of around 40/45km - their MSTA self propelled guns can fire from as far away as 25/30km. The GRAD and MSTA can 'scoot and shoot' so they'll be moving about all the time.First.Aspect said:How much of the damage is being inflicted by air?
Put another way, where is the shelling of Mariupol coming from, given its a port city?
Genuine question - I don't know.
Maybe that's why they've stopped asking for one.0 -
Yeahbut they *were* asking for one.imposter2.0 said:
No fly zone would only be sensible if Russia had air superiority over Ukraine, which they don't. As long as Ukraine can fly aircraft and UAVs over their own territory, a no fly zone would be counter productive.pblakeney said:
Logical but not compatible with a no fly zone.MattFalle said:
only way to knock them out is with air power/drones which is what Ukraine has been asking for.thegreatdivide said:
GRAD rockets and the Russian long range artillery has a range of around 40/45km - their MSTA self propelled guns can fire from as far away as 25/30km. The GRAD and MSTA can 'scoot and shoot' so they'll be moving about all the time.First.Aspect said:How much of the damage is being inflicted by air?
Put another way, where is the shelling of Mariupol coming from, given its a port city?
Genuine question - I don't know.
Maybe that's why they've stopped asking for one.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
The UF have taken out a fair few towed and self propelled big guns already with BAYRAKTAR* drones. Once the loitering suicide drones turn up it'll be a whole lot of fun.
*BAYRAKTAR! must be shouted, hence the caps.0 -
They were, yes, I never really understood that, as they were still active in the air themselves. Unless what they were hoping for was a 'no fly zone for the Russians only', which is not really how it works...pblakeney said:
Yeahbut they *were* asking for one.imposter2.0 said:
No fly zone would only be sensible if Russia had air superiority over Ukraine, which they don't. As long as Ukraine can fly aircraft and UAVs over their own territory, a no fly zone would be counter productive.pblakeney said:
Logical but not compatible with a no fly zone.MattFalle said:
only way to knock them out is with air power/drones which is what Ukraine has been asking for.thegreatdivide said:
GRAD rockets and the Russian long range artillery has a range of around 40/45km - their MSTA self propelled guns can fire from as far away as 25/30km. The GRAD and MSTA can 'scoot and shoot' so they'll be moving about all the time.First.Aspect said:How much of the damage is being inflicted by air?
Put another way, where is the shelling of Mariupol coming from, given its a port city?
Genuine question - I don't know.
Maybe that's why they've stopped asking for one.1 -
Zelensky is a very shrewd operator. By asking for a no-fly zone he either gets one or gets told sorry no but you can have this instead.imposter2.0 said:
They were, yes, I never really understood that, as they were still active in the air themselves. Unless what they were hoping for was a 'no fly zone for the Russians only', which is not really how it works...pblakeney said:
Yeahbut they *were* asking for one.imposter2.0 said:
No fly zone would only be sensible if Russia had air superiority over Ukraine, which they don't. As long as Ukraine can fly aircraft and UAVs over their own territory, a no fly zone would be counter productive.pblakeney said:
Logical but not compatible with a no fly zone.MattFalle said:
only way to knock them out is with air power/drones which is what Ukraine has been asking for.thegreatdivide said:
GRAD rockets and the Russian long range artillery has a range of around 40/45km - their MSTA self propelled guns can fire from as far away as 25/30km. The GRAD and MSTA can 'scoot and shoot' so they'll be moving about all the time.First.Aspect said:How much of the damage is being inflicted by air?
Put another way, where is the shelling of Mariupol coming from, given its a port city?
Genuine question - I don't know.
Maybe that's why they've stopped asking for one.
On the face of it asking for tanks makes no sense0 -
Asking for something he knows NATO can't give means he can more easily say that he's not interested in NATO.0
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I found this interview very interesting as he answers what "winning" looks like for Ukraine and other countries
Also left me wondering whether we would be better off without career politicians
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNjiRmIWtss 0 -
exactly - this was pointed out by people in tbe medis when they initially asked for one and i also pointed it out here.pblakeney said:
Logical but not compatible with a no fly zone.MattFalle said:
only way to knock them out is with air power/drones which is what Ukraine has been asking for.thegreatdivide said:
GRAD rockets and the Russian long range artillery has a range of around 40/45km - their MSTA self propelled guns can fire from as far away as 25/30km. The GRAD and MSTA can 'scoot and shoot' so they'll be moving about all the time.First.Aspect said:How much of the damage is being inflicted by air?
Put another way, where is the shelling of Mariupol coming from, given its a port city?
Genuine question - I don't know.
Maybe that's why they've stopped asking for one..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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its sll drying out, armour shortage on Russian side, v limited anti tank from Russians, 70 tons of T72 comes rolling towards you....surrey_commuter said:
Zelensky is a very shrewd operator. By asking for a no-fly zone he either gets one or gets told sorry no but you can have this instead.imposter2.0 said:
They were, yes, I never really understood that, as they were still active in the air themselves. Unless what they were hoping for was a 'no fly zone for the Russians only', which is not really how it works...pblakeney said:
Yeahbut they *were* asking for one.imposter2.0 said:
No fly zone would only be sensible if Russia had air superiority over Ukraine, which they don't. As long as Ukraine can fly aircraft and UAVs over their own territory, a no fly zone would be counter productive.pblakeney said:
Logical but not compatible with a no fly zone.MattFalle said:
only way to knock them out is with air power/drones which is what Ukraine has been asking for.thegreatdivide said:
GRAD rockets and the Russian long range artillery has a range of around 40/45km - their MSTA self propelled guns can fire from as far away as 25/30km. The GRAD and MSTA can 'scoot and shoot' so they'll be moving about all the time.First.Aspect said:How much of the damage is being inflicted by air?
Put another way, where is the shelling of Mariupol coming from, given its a port city?
Genuine question - I don't know.
Maybe that's why they've stopped asking for one.
On the face of it asking for tanks makes no sense
tbh, a lot of the time they are just really good mobile artillery..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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I don't get why attacking their troops is an act of war if they are outside Russia. This is where the west has messed up. How many countries do they have to go into before it is acceptable? Can we invade France then get all upset when the rest of Europe actively fights against us on French soil only. Seems proportionate to me.surrey_commuter said:
what you are talking about is declaring war on Russia. As the West is not an entity that can declare war then who exactly do you think should be enforcing this no-fly zone and declaring war on Russia?john80 said:I think in hindsight the collective mistake the West has made is not enforcing a no fly zone and stating some basic red lines for Russia. Some of these could have been things such as you have a week to leave Ukraine post no fly zone enforcement. After that any military assets you have in Ukraine are fair game and here is a map. The international community is in broad agreement that this is an illegal war and a breach of Ukraines sovereignty. This leads to the logical conclusion that if this is allowed to happen then what is the point in international organisations other than for some very well paid jobs talking nonsense. Was Putin really going to be stupid enough to launch attacks outside Ukraine in response. Was he really going to be stupid enough to launch a nuclear war. I don't think China and his other mates would be so keen on supporting that. The Chinese might have a problem maintaining control in a nuclear winter given they are already losing support for their zero covid strategy two years in.
We are so scared of poking a bear we instead let him in the tent and are not bargaining with him with our left over lunch box. I wonder when we are going to run out of food.
Russia should be kicked off international institutions. What are they going to do about it. Start another one with South Korea and Belarus.
This war will be disastrous for both Russia and Ukraine. Ukrainians will be paying with their blood for years to come at no fault of their own. Economically they won't recover in large areas as how can you build an economy when Russia will roll tanks in every six months to prove a point. It is a tragedy of western strength and diplomacy that Ukraine has got here.0 -
I don't get why attacking their troops is an act of war if they are outside Russia. This is where the west has messed up. How many countries do they have to go into before it is acceptable? Can we invade France then get all upset when the rest of Europe actively fights against us on French soil only. Seems proportionate to me.surrey_commuter said:
what you are talking about is declaring war on Russia. As the West is not an entity that can declare war then who exactly do you think should be enforcing this no-fly zone and declaring war on Russia?john80 said:I think in hindsight the collective mistake the West has made is not enforcing a no fly zone and stating some basic red lines for Russia. Some of these could have been things such as you have a week to leave Ukraine post no fly zone enforcement. After that any military assets you have in Ukraine are fair game and here is a map. The international community is in broad agreement that this is an illegal war and a breach of Ukraines sovereignty. This leads to the logical conclusion that if this is allowed to happen then what is the point in international organisations other than for some very well paid jobs talking nonsense. Was Putin really going to be stupid enough to launch attacks outside Ukraine in response. Was he really going to be stupid enough to launch a nuclear war. I don't think China and his other mates would be so keen on supporting that. The Chinese might have a problem maintaining control in a nuclear winter given they are already losing support for their zero covid strategy two years in.
We are so scared of poking a bear we instead let him in the tent and are not bargaining with him with our left over lunch box. I wonder when we are going to run out of food.
Russia should be kicked off international institutions. What are they going to do about it. Start another one with South Korea and Belarus.
This war will be disastrous for both Russia and Ukraine. Ukrainians will be paying with their blood for years to come at no fault of their own. Economically they won't recover in large areas as how can you build an economy when Russia will roll tanks in every six months to prove a point. It is a tragedy of western strength and diplomacy that Ukraine has got here.0
