Poo tin... Put@in...
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So you wrote this originally. How many of those give him agency for what he says?Stevo_666 said:
At a guess there are a few possible explanations:thegreatdivide said:
1. These are the people who get their info from State TV and swallow the govt narrative hook, line and sinker.
2. They are government plants paid to say that.
3. They are ordinary people who are aware of the FSB heavy standing behind the camera who will cart them off if they go off message.
About half of the first point.
This idea that without the propaganda he’d not think this - there’s nothing to say that’s the case.0 -
And we're all saying that they have been indoctrinated, hence the enthusiasm with which the perpetrators are doing it.rick_chasey said:
This is literally what I *am* saying.briantrumpet said:
I think you're wrong on that count, by a long way. As the Milgram Experiment showed, people will do terrible things, even without indoctrination.0 -
Some people believe bad things. Believing in peace and democracy is not a natural state that people are pushed away from by propaganda.briantrumpet said:
And we're all saying that they have been indoctrinated, hence the enthusiasm with which the perpetrators are doing it.rick_chasey said:
This is literally what I *am* saying.briantrumpet said:
I think you're wrong on that count, by a long way. As the Milgram Experiment showed, people will do terrible things, even without indoctrination.
The concept of Ukraine as a part of Russia is as old as Russia itself, as is punishing Ukrainian for not acquiescing,
Lots of people are ok with this. That’s the fact of the matter.0 -
rick_chasey said:
Some people believe bad things. Believing in peace and democracy is not a natural state that people are pushed away from by propaganda.briantrumpet said:
And we're all saying that they have been indoctrinated, hence the enthusiasm with which the perpetrators are doing it.rick_chasey said:
This is literally what I *am* saying.briantrumpet said:
I think you're wrong on that count, by a long way. As the Milgram Experiment showed, people will do terrible things, even without indoctrination.
The concept of Ukraine as a part of Russia is as old as Russia itself, as is punishing Ukrainian for not acquiescing,
Lots of people are ok with this. That’s the fact of the matter.
Now I've no idea what you're arguing - that's a list of separate statements.0 -
Russia being a fully democratic country is a strange notion to me.
Even Stalin held elections, were they democratic?The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I think you’re all giving too much agency to propaganda and the state and not enough to individuals.
I think plenty of Russians wouldn’t need exclusive state control of the media to support the war, Putin, and “punishing” Ukraine.0 -
Rick
I like you. You seem like a nice, if harmless, dude.
Do
they do have people who will torture.rick_chasey said:
Mmm some sure.Stevo_666 said:
Yes, of course I did. That's why I'm commenting on the possible reasons.rick_chasey said:
Did you listen to the interview?Stevo_666 said:
How is this connected to us being soft on war crimes? Completely different issue. You're talking bollox again.rick_chasey said:We're all responsible for our own actions. Period.
I thought I was all wokey dokey but this is taking the p!ss.
In this day and age, people are saying that people are brain washed because there is some aggressive state media?
Honestly.
I hope the judges when they are judging the war crimes aren't as soft as you lot.
Where are you drawing the line between being responsible for what you think and do and not?
In a semi totalitarian system such as Russia, do you not think some of the responsibility lies with the state, who are controlling the media and therefore influencing what people think.
Ultimately power is derived from society, right?
If I started bossing people about no one would listen to me as they don’t afford me the legitimacy.
We don’t need to get too academic but if everyone turned around and said “nah Putin, this isn’t happening, p!ss off” then he’d be done.
You can definitely work on a narrower base of support/legitimacy if you use more extreme measures of coercion, as long as you have the military and police on side, but in order to do that you need a material amount of people at least to be OK with being quite extreme.
The threat of torture only works if you have people willing to torture etc.
So I think there is play in the relationship and it’s not a linear relationship but you ultimately get the leadership society allows for, with a bit of lag.
We gonna give the guys who committed the war crimes in Ukraine a free pass because they’ve been indoctrinated by Russian propaganda?
Hell no.
The Soviets stoped being Soviets in the early 90s and Putin only came to power in his current guise in 2008 and even then he didn’t have the grip he does now.
That’s a good 15-20 years to realise you were sold a pup.
we do
the Americans do
the Russians are just more open to doing it to more people for any reason they blimmin' want.
And as far as Iam aware they don't have a Police Complaints Commission..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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The cold war didn't end because of an idealogical shift with the Soviets, it ended because they were utterly broke. It was covered in a book called The Last Empire. I think it got to the point where Gorbachev was pretty much going cap in hand to Bush for supplies or funds to get them through another winter, even offering to take out of date army rations. The sanctions may get to that point again but it could take a while and this time I suspect Putin would rather starve his population than do a deal, more likely go begging to the Chinese.Pross said:
From memory they used to suffer in years when there were bad harvests back in the Soviet era. I assume sanctions would take them back to a similar position, I recall images of queues for bread and other essentials back in those days.pblakeney said:
That's what I thought, and feared. Unless someone up top gets annoyed enough to "hit" him then they make no difference.laurentian said:
My guess is that, in terms of subsistence, they're probably pretty well positioned. Minerals, oil, vast agricultural areas etc.pblakeney said:A couple of questions that I am pondering. How self sufficient is Russia?
How long can they go on with sanctions making little difference?
However, there is a difference between subsistence and living as many in Russia would like to or are used to especially those toward the higher end of the socio-economic spectrum. As somebody said upthread, the sanctions are unlikley to make much difference at all to those at the lower end of that spectrum.
I'm pretty sure that if Russia got its shittogether it could be pretty much self sufficient indefinitely.0 -
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And further down that post it states that the Czech Republic and Slovakia are considering opening a repair and refit production line for Ukraine's damaged armour.0
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You wonder if the lack of Russian capability is emboldening the support for Ukrainethegreatdivide said:And further down that post it states that the Czech Republic and Slovakia are considering opening a repair and refit production line for Ukraine's damaged armour.
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My wondering only goes as far as thinking it is getting your retaliation in early, and not on your soil.rick_chasey said:
You wonder if the lack of Russian capability is emboldening the support for Ukrainethegreatdivide said:And further down that post it states that the Czech Republic and Slovakia are considering opening a repair and refit production line for Ukraine's damaged armour.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
In addition to this I note on the BBC live feed this evening 'The German newspaper Welt am Sonntag reported recently that Berlin had lifted its objections to a private Czech arms dealer exporting 56 ex-East German BMP-1s to Ukraine.'
That's incredible.
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Sky asking the question whether Russia might be running out of some of their missiles.0
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They’re a wee bit late to the party. It’s been quoted by analysts for a while now that they spanked a lot of their best missiles in Syria. They must be running out of their less smart weapons now too. I really hope so.Dorset_Boy said:Sky asking the question whether Russia might be running out of some of their missiles.
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not really. everyone just thinks they're a bunch of fuckingmoujees for starting all this snd want to smash them.rick_chasey said:
You wonder if the lack of Russian capability is emboldening the support for Ukrainethegreatdivide said:And further down that post it states that the Czech Republic and Slovakia are considering opening a repair and refit production line for Ukraine's damaged armour.
.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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shortages starting to show everywhere and without parts for tanks and rockets coming in from Ukraine as discussed passim and other countries due to sanctions its all turning tight.thegreatdivide said:
They’re a wee bit late to the party. It’s been quoted by analysts for a while now that they spanked a lot of their best missiles in Syria. They must be running out of their less smart weapons now too. I really hope so.Dorset_Boy said:Sky asking the question whether Russia might be running out of some of their missiles.
Now they've decided to send Wagner in thats more of a drain on logistics plus should be a shift (downward) in morale by Regular troops as Regulars don't really like mercernaries..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Be interesting to see what happens in Syria now as well..
The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Sorry, I don't know what you are on about now.rick_chasey said:
So you wrote this originally. How many of those give him agency for what he says?Stevo_666 said:
At a guess there are a few possible explanations:thegreatdivide said:
1. These are the people who get their info from State TV and swallow the govt narrative hook, line and sinker.
2. They are government plants paid to say that.
3. They are ordinary people who are aware of the FSB heavy standing behind the camera who will cart them off if they go off message.
About half of the first point.
This idea that without the propaganda he’d not think this - there’s nothing to say that’s the case.
You are again incapable of sticking to the point and have gone off on a complete tangent. My original point was offering plausible explanations about why those people said what they did. You've gone off on some moral crusade about how we are allegedly cutting them some slack which is irrelevant to my point and in any event, wrong."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Gonna gently remind everyone of the discussion we were having last night and how there are Russian Troops amazed by a microwave. I suspect they do not have access to a computer, let alone a VPN. I'm sure they do have a crappy old TV with free access to RT1 though.
First step of any fight is to dehumanise the enemy, be that untermenschen, dangerous Muzzos, leftibollox or Ukrainians = Nazis. Nothing new here.
I can't find the precise bloomin' quote now, but it was something like, "The problem with Glasnost was that all this time we thought we were right and the west was wrong. Then we discovered it was the other way around!"We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Yeah and I’m saying you missed the most obvious reason: he can just think it without having “swallowed the government narrative” which I appreciate is not something you’ve been that familiar with for the past 12 years or so.Stevo_666 said:
Sorry, I don't know what you are on about now.rick_chasey said:
So you wrote this originally. How many of those give him agency for what he says?Stevo_666 said:
At a guess there are a few possible explanations:thegreatdivide said:
1. These are the people who get their info from State TV and swallow the govt narrative hook, line and sinker.
2. They are government plants paid to say that.
3. They are ordinary people who are aware of the FSB heavy standing behind the camera who will cart them off if they go off message.
About half of the first point.
This idea that without the propaganda he’d not think this - there’s nothing to say that’s the case.
You are again incapable of sticking to the point and have gone off on a complete tangent. My original point was offering plausible explanations about why those people said what they did. You've gone off on some moral crusade about how we are allegedly cutting them some slack which is irrelevant to my point and in any event, wrong.
Some people really believe the stuff he said. Not because they’re brainwashed. But they just do. Lots of Russians do think that.
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Read my first possible explanation. That covers it. Saves you trying to argue as you're agreeing with what I posted in the first place...rick_chasey said:
Some people really believe the stuff he said.Stevo_666 said:
Sorry, I don't know what you are on about now.rick_chasey said:
So you wrote this originally. How many of those give him agency for what he says?Stevo_666 said:
At a guess there are a few possible explanations:thegreatdivide said:
1. These are the people who get their info from State TV and swallow the govt narrative hook, line and sinker.
2. They are government plants paid to say that.
3. They are ordinary people who are aware of the FSB heavy standing behind the camera who will cart them off if they go off message.
About half of the first point.
This idea that without the propaganda he’d not think this - there’s nothing to say that’s the case.
You are again incapable of sticking to the point and have gone off on a complete tangent. My original point was offering plausible explanations about why those people said what they did. You've gone off on some moral crusade about how we are allegedly cutting them some slack which is irrelevant to my point and in any event, wrong."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Ok if you’re not gonna understand that’s fine.
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Anyway, is there a good reason not to throw Russia off the UN Security Council?
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Presumably as they're a founding member and the rules don't allow it?rick_chasey said:Ok if you’re not gonna understand that’s fine.
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Anyway, is there a good reason not to throw Russia off the UN Security Council?1 -
It's an old idea but not as old as Kyiv. It's about as valid as claiming England and Northern France as part of Norway.rick_chasey said:
Some people believe bad things. Believing in peace and democracy is not a natural state that people are pushed away from by propaganda.briantrumpet said:
And we're all saying that they have been indoctrinated, hence the enthusiasm with which the perpetrators are doing it.rick_chasey said:
This is literally what I *am* saying.briantrumpet said:
I think you're wrong on that count, by a long way. As the Milgram Experiment showed, people will do terrible things, even without indoctrination.
The concept of Ukraine as a part of Russia is as old as Russia itself, as is punishing Ukrainian for not acquiescing,
Lots of people are ok with this. That’s the fact of the matter.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Not really talking about validity but Ukraine *was* part of Russia for a long time in living memory so it’s not quite like the above example.rjsterry said:
It's an old idea but not as old as Kyiv. It's about as valid as claiming England and Northern France as part of Norway.rick_chasey said:
Some people believe bad things. Believing in peace and democracy is not a natural state that people are pushed away from by propaganda.briantrumpet said:
And we're all saying that they have been indoctrinated, hence the enthusiasm with which the perpetrators are doing it.rick_chasey said:
This is literally what I *am* saying.briantrumpet said:
I think you're wrong on that count, by a long way. As the Milgram Experiment showed, people will do terrible things, even without indoctrination.
The concept of Ukraine as a part of Russia is as old as Russia itself, as is punishing Ukrainian for not acquiescing,
Lots of people are ok with this. That’s the fact of the matter.0 -
Rick: The concept of Ukraine as a part of Russia is as old as Russia itself, ....
Rick: Not really talking about validity but Ukraine *was* part of Russia for a long time in living memory...
No wonder no one understands what you are going on about in this thread when you contradict yourself every other post.3 -
Not sure those 2 posts actually contradict each other?Dorset_Boy said:Rick: The concept of Ukraine as a part of Russia is as old as Russia itself, ....
Rick: Not really talking about validity but Ukraine *was* part of Russia for a long time in living memory...
No wonder no one understands what you are going on about in this thread when you contradict yourself every other post.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
Dorset_Boy said:
Rick: The concept of Ukraine as a part of Russia is as old as Russia itself, ....
Rick: Not really talking about validity but Ukraine *was* part of Russia for a long time in living memory...
No wonder no one understands what you are going on about in this thread when you contradict yourself every other post.Over the next 600 years, (from the 13th Century) the area was contested, divided, and ruled by external powers, including the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Austrian Empire, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire, and the Tsardom of Russia.
Central Ukraine has been partitioned between Russia and Poland. Western Ukraine was annexed from Poland in the 1939, with a little help from the Nazi's.
But yeah, it's always been part of Russia.
Also interesting to here the BBC corespondent in Moscow this morning, talking about how much the narrative of the war is state controlled, the blocking of most social media etc.
Basically saying that the average Russian is completely in the dark of what has taken place."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
pangolin said:
Not sure those 2 posts actually contradict each other?Dorset_Boy said:Rick: The concept of Ukraine as a part of Russia is as old as Russia itself, ....
Rick: Not really talking about validity but Ukraine *was* part of Russia for a long time in living memory...
No wonder no one understands what you are going on about in this thread when you contradict yourself every other post.
Well perhaps you would agree that one post is a completely false claim and one post is factual?
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0
