Poo tin... Put@in...
Comments
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Is flicking the channel really that hard?Stevo_666 said:
The point DB is making is that a lot of them never really had that access.rick_chasey said:
Until this month there were plenty of opportunities to see other views. 5 years ago even more so. 5 years before that, again, even more so.Dorset_Boy said:
Only those with access to outside sources have the opportunity to see through the propaganda, so not your rural living or working class city dwelling Russian, or probably most of their older population.rick_chasey said:
Someone somewhere is deciding that they are and if it's utter nonsense to people they won't be beleived.Stevo_666 said:
Well quite. A lot of ordinary Russians have no internet access and rely on state TV for their view of the world. They don't just wake up in the morning and decide on their own that Ukraine is full of nazis etc.imposter2.0 said:
He thinks it for the reasons stated..rick_chasey said:
4. He thinks it.Stevo_666 said:
At a guess there are a few possible explanations:thegreatdivide said:
1. These are the people who get their info from State TV and swallow the govt narrative hook, line and sinker.
2. They are government plants paid to say that.
3. They are ordinary people who are aware of the FSB heavy standing behind the camera who will cart them off if they go off message.
There are plenty of people who can see through the propaganda. It's not hard to work it out.
Until last month it wasn't total dominance and control by the state.
Russia doesn't really have a great fire-wall like China does. In fact, it only relatively recently started limiting access.
Hell, even my parents can work a VPN to get foreign TV. It's not that hard.
I know it's comforting to think that people can be brainwashed to believe or conduct awful things, but the reality is there is a lot propensity in people to invite those ideas and behaviours.
Sometimes people are just bad and they believe awful things. They are their own agents, they act on their own ideas. They can chose to believe or not.
Some cultures are cultures that lend themselves much more easily to abhorrent behaviour.
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Just curious, do you know that for fact or just assuming? A bugbear of mine these days is people assuming that everyone's experiences match theirs.rick_chasey said:
Is flicking the channel really that hard?Stevo_666 said:
The point DB is making is that a lot of them never really had that access.rick_chasey said:
Until this month there were plenty of opportunities to see other views. 5 years ago even more so. 5 years before that, again, even more so.Dorset_Boy said:
Only those with access to outside sources have the opportunity to see through the propaganda, so not your rural living or working class city dwelling Russian, or probably most of their older population.rick_chasey said:
Someone somewhere is deciding that they are and if it's utter nonsense to people they won't be beleived.Stevo_666 said:
Well quite. A lot of ordinary Russians have no internet access and rely on state TV for their view of the world. They don't just wake up in the morning and decide on their own that Ukraine is full of nazis etc.imposter2.0 said:
He thinks it for the reasons stated..rick_chasey said:
4. He thinks it.Stevo_666 said:
At a guess there are a few possible explanations:thegreatdivide said:
1. These are the people who get their info from State TV and swallow the govt narrative hook, line and sinker.
2. They are government plants paid to say that.
3. They are ordinary people who are aware of the FSB heavy standing behind the camera who will cart them off if they go off message.
There are plenty of people who can see through the propaganda. It's not hard to work it out.
Until last month it wasn't total dominance and control by the state.
Russia doesn't really have a great fire-wall like China does. In fact, it only relatively recently started limiting access.
Hell, even my parents can work a VPN to get foreign TV. It's not that hard.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Yeah. Last month they shut the final 3 remaining non-state run TV channels. 2 of which covered the war as a "war", despite the ruling that came from up high that only the state coverage was accurate - which was the law they used to shut the remaining news channels down.pblakeney said:
Just curious, do you know that for fact or just assuming? A bugbear of mine these days is people assuming that everyone's experiences match theirs.rick_chasey said:
Is flicking the channel really that hard?Stevo_666 said:
The point DB is making is that a lot of them never really had that access.rick_chasey said:
Until this month there were plenty of opportunities to see other views. 5 years ago even more so. 5 years before that, again, even more so.Dorset_Boy said:
Only those with access to outside sources have the opportunity to see through the propaganda, so not your rural living or working class city dwelling Russian, or probably most of their older population.rick_chasey said:
Someone somewhere is deciding that they are and if it's utter nonsense to people they won't be beleived.Stevo_666 said:
Well quite. A lot of ordinary Russians have no internet access and rely on state TV for their view of the world. They don't just wake up in the morning and decide on their own that Ukraine is full of nazis etc.imposter2.0 said:
He thinks it for the reasons stated..rick_chasey said:
4. He thinks it.Stevo_666 said:
At a guess there are a few possible explanations:thegreatdivide said:
1. These are the people who get their info from State TV and swallow the govt narrative hook, line and sinker.
2. They are government plants paid to say that.
3. They are ordinary people who are aware of the FSB heavy standing behind the camera who will cart them off if they go off message.
There are plenty of people who can see through the propaganda. It's not hard to work it out.
Until last month it wasn't total dominance and control by the state.
Russia doesn't really have a great fire-wall like China does. In fact, it only relatively recently started limiting access.
Hell, even my parents can work a VPN to get foreign TV. It's not that hard.
Since the end of the soviet days there has been some shades of free press. That has been gradually erroded under Putin, but the state dominance of the press has only really been total since last month.
Certainly pre-Crimean annexation, you could say your opinion fairly freely. It was only if you were popular would you run into trouble, but even then, it's not 1930s Russia where there are thought police and you end up in a gulag.
Look at Navalny's career - he was in vocal disagreement with Putin and his regime for a long long time before he got dealt with.
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You underestimate the level of control of the Russian media by the state before there conflict started.rick_chasey said:
Is flicking the channel really that hard?Stevo_666 said:
The point DB is making is that a lot of them never really had that access.rick_chasey said:
Until this month there were plenty of opportunities to see other views. 5 years ago even more so. 5 years before that, again, even more so.Dorset_Boy said:
Only those with access to outside sources have the opportunity to see through the propaganda, so not your rural living or working class city dwelling Russian, or probably most of their older population.rick_chasey said:
Someone somewhere is deciding that they are and if it's utter nonsense to people they won't be beleived.Stevo_666 said:
Well quite. A lot of ordinary Russians have no internet access and rely on state TV for their view of the world. They don't just wake up in the morning and decide on their own that Ukraine is full of nazis etc.imposter2.0 said:
He thinks it for the reasons stated..rick_chasey said:
4. He thinks it.Stevo_666 said:
At a guess there are a few possible explanations:thegreatdivide said:
1. These are the people who get their info from State TV and swallow the govt narrative hook, line and sinker.
2. They are government plants paid to say that.
3. They are ordinary people who are aware of the FSB heavy standing behind the camera who will cart them off if they go off message.
There are plenty of people who can see through the propaganda. It's not hard to work it out.
Until last month it wasn't total dominance and control by the state.
Russia doesn't really have a great fire-wall like China does. In fact, it only relatively recently started limiting access.
Hell, even my parents can work a VPN to get foreign TV. It's not that hard.
I know it's comforting to think that people can be brainwashed to believe or conduct awful things, but the reality is there is a lot propensity in people to invite those ideas and behaviours.
Sometimes people are just bad and they believe awful things. They are their own agents, they act on their own ideas. They can chose to believe or not.
Some cultures are cultures that lend themselves much more easily to abhorrent behaviour.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_freedom_in_Russia"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
rubbish.rick_chasey said:
Someone somewhere is deciding that they are and if it's utter nonsense to people they won't be beleived.Stevo_666 said:
Well quite. A lot of ordinary Russians have no internet access and rely on state TV for their view of the world. They don't just wake up in the morning and decide on their own that Ukraine is full of nazis etc.imposter2.0 said:
He thinks it for the reasons stated..rick_chasey said:
4. He thinks it.Stevo_666 said:
At a guess there are a few possible explanations:thegreatdivide said:
1. These are the people who get their info from State TV and swallow the govt narrative hook, line and sinker.
2. They are government plants paid to say that.
3. They are ordinary people who are aware of the FSB heavy standing behind the camera who will cart them off if they go off message.
There are plenty of people who can see through the propaganda. It's not hard to work it out.
if people are belt fed something over and over and over again of course they will believe it.
look at brexit. look at the Tories. Look at the MAGA movement. John is a perfect example.
Come on Rick, you know better..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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.
Rick,Stevo_666 said:
You underestimate the level of control of the Russian media by the state before there conflict started.rick_chasey said:
Is flicking the channel really that hard?Stevo_666 said:
The point DB is making is that a lot of them never really had that access.rick_chasey said:
Until this month there were plenty of opportunities to see other views. 5 years ago even more so. 5 years before that, again, even more so.Dorset_Boy said:
Only those with access to outside sources have the opportunity to see through the propaganda, so not your rural living or working class city dwelling Russian, or probably most of their older population.rick_chasey said:
Someone somewhere is deciding that they are and if it's utter nonsense to people they won't be beleived.Stevo_666 said:
Well quite. A lot of ordinary Russians have no internet access and rely on state TV for their view of the world. They don't just wake up in the morning and decide on their own that Ukraine is full of nazis etc.imposter2.0 said:
He thinks it for the reasons stated..rick_chasey said:
4. He thinks it.Stevo_666 said:
At a guess there are a few possible explanations:thegreatdivide said:
1. These are the people who get their info from State TV and swallow the govt narrative hook, line and sinker.
2. They are government plants paid to say that.
3. They are ordinary people who are aware of the FSB heavy standing behind the camera who will cart them off if they go off message.
There are plenty of people who can see through the propaganda. It's not hard to work it out.
Until last month it wasn't total dominance and control by the state.
Russia doesn't really have a great fire-wall like China does. In fact, it only relatively recently started limiting access.
Hell, even my parents can work a VPN to get foreign TV. It's not that hard.
I know it's comforting to think that people can be brainwashed to believe or conduct awful things, but the reality is there is a lot propensity in people to invite those ideas and behaviours.
Sometimes people are just bad and they believe awful things. They are their own agents, they act on their own ideas. They can chose to believe or not.
Some cultures are cultures that lend themselves much more easily to abhorrent behaviour.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_freedom_in_Russia
We all know Stevo is right on this..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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I can't work a VPN. My parents deffo can't - they can barely work my hob and oven.rick_chasey said:
Is flicking the channel really that hard?Stevo_666 said:
The point DB is making is that a lot of them never really had that access.rick_chasey said:
Until this month there were plenty of opportunities to see other views. 5 years ago even more so. 5 years before that, again, even more so.Dorset_Boy said:
Only those with access to outside sources have the opportunity to see through the propaganda, so not your rural living or working class city dwelling Russian, or probably most of their older population.rick_chasey said:
Someone somewhere is deciding that they are and if it's utter nonsense to people they won't be beleived.Stevo_666 said:
Well quite. A lot of ordinary Russians have no internet access and rely on state TV for their view of the world. They don't just wake up in the morning and decide on their own that Ukraine is full of nazis etc.imposter2.0 said:
He thinks it for the reasons stated..rick_chasey said:
4. He thinks it.Stevo_666 said:
At a guess there are a few possible explanations:thegreatdivide said:
1. These are the people who get their info from State TV and swallow the govt narrative hook, line and sinker.
2. They are government plants paid to say that.
3. They are ordinary people who are aware of the FSB heavy standing behind the camera who will cart them off if they go off message.
There are plenty of people who can see through the propaganda. It's not hard to work it out.
Until last month it wasn't total dominance and control by the state.
Russia doesn't really have a great fire-wall like China does. In fact, it only relatively recently started limiting access.
Hell, even my parents can work a VPN to get foreign TV. It's not that hard.
I know it's comforting to think that people can be brainwashed to believe or conduct awful things, but the reality is there is a lot propensity in people to invite those ideas and behaviours.
Sometimes people are just bad and they believe awful things. They are their own agents, they act on their own ideas. They can chose to believe or not.
Some cultures are cultures that lend themselves much more easily to abhorrent behaviour.
your last sentence is particularly worrying, tbh......The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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What's new?MattFalle said:.
Rick,Stevo_666 said:
You underestimate the level of control of the Russian media by the state before there conflict started.rick_chasey said:
Is flicking the channel really that hard?Stevo_666 said:
The point DB is making is that a lot of them never really had that access.rick_chasey said:
Until this month there were plenty of opportunities to see other views. 5 years ago even more so. 5 years before that, again, even more so.Dorset_Boy said:
Only those with access to outside sources have the opportunity to see through the propaganda, so not your rural living or working class city dwelling Russian, or probably most of their older population.rick_chasey said:
Someone somewhere is deciding that they are and if it's utter nonsense to people they won't be beleived.Stevo_666 said:
Well quite. A lot of ordinary Russians have no internet access and rely on state TV for their view of the world. They don't just wake up in the morning and decide on their own that Ukraine is full of nazis etc.imposter2.0 said:
He thinks it for the reasons stated..rick_chasey said:
4. He thinks it.Stevo_666 said:
At a guess there are a few possible explanations:thegreatdivide said:
1. These are the people who get their info from State TV and swallow the govt narrative hook, line and sinker.
2. They are government plants paid to say that.
3. They are ordinary people who are aware of the FSB heavy standing behind the camera who will cart them off if they go off message.
There are plenty of people who can see through the propaganda. It's not hard to work it out.
Until last month it wasn't total dominance and control by the state.
Russia doesn't really have a great fire-wall like China does. In fact, it only relatively recently started limiting access.
Hell, even my parents can work a VPN to get foreign TV. It's not that hard.
I know it's comforting to think that people can be brainwashed to believe or conduct awful things, but the reality is there is a lot propensity in people to invite those ideas and behaviours.
Sometimes people are just bad and they believe awful things. They are their own agents, they act on their own ideas. They can chose to believe or not.
Some cultures are cultures that lend themselves much more easily to abhorrent behaviour.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_freedom_in_Russia
We all know Stevo is right on this.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]1 -
you being right 🤣🤣😀Stevo_666 said:
What's new?MattFalle said:.
Rick,Stevo_666 said:
You underestimate the level of control of the Russian media by the state before there conflict started.rick_chasey said:
Is flicking the channel really that hard?Stevo_666 said:
The point DB is making is that a lot of them never really had that access.rick_chasey said:
Until this month there were plenty of opportunities to see other views. 5 years ago even more so. 5 years before that, again, even more so.Dorset_Boy said:
Only those with access to outside sources have the opportunity to see through the propaganda, so not your rural living or working class city dwelling Russian, or probably most of their older population.rick_chasey said:
Someone somewhere is deciding that they are and if it's utter nonsense to people they won't be beleived.Stevo_666 said:
Well quite. A lot of ordinary Russians have no internet access and rely on state TV for their view of the world. They don't just wake up in the morning and decide on their own that Ukraine is full of nazis etc.imposter2.0 said:
He thinks it for the reasons stated..rick_chasey said:
4. He thinks it.Stevo_666 said:
At a guess there are a few possible explanations:thegreatdivide said:
1. These are the people who get their info from State TV and swallow the govt narrative hook, line and sinker.
2. They are government plants paid to say that.
3. They are ordinary people who are aware of the FSB heavy standing behind the camera who will cart them off if they go off message.
There are plenty of people who can see through the propaganda. It's not hard to work it out.
Until last month it wasn't total dominance and control by the state.
Russia doesn't really have a great fire-wall like China does. In fact, it only relatively recently started limiting access.
Hell, even my parents can work a VPN to get foreign TV. It's not that hard.
I know it's comforting to think that people can be brainwashed to believe or conduct awful things, but the reality is there is a lot propensity in people to invite those ideas and behaviours.
Sometimes people are just bad and they believe awful things. They are their own agents, they act on their own ideas. They can chose to believe or not.
Some cultures are cultures that lend themselves much more easily to abhorrent behaviour.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_freedom_in_Russia
We all know Stevo is right on this.
theres always a first time, eh? 😀😀😀😀🤣🤣.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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MattFalle said:
you being right 🤣🤣😀Stevo_666 said:
What's new?MattFalle said:.
Rick,Stevo_666 said:
You underestimate the level of control of the Russian media by the state before there conflict started.rick_chasey said:
Is flicking the channel really that hard?Stevo_666 said:
The point DB is making is that a lot of them never really had that access.rick_chasey said:
Until this month there were plenty of opportunities to see other views. 5 years ago even more so. 5 years before that, again, even more so.Dorset_Boy said:
Only those with access to outside sources have the opportunity to see through the propaganda, so not your rural living or working class city dwelling Russian, or probably most of their older population.rick_chasey said:
Someone somewhere is deciding that they are and if it's utter nonsense to people they won't be beleived.Stevo_666 said:
Well quite. A lot of ordinary Russians have no internet access and rely on state TV for their view of the world. They don't just wake up in the morning and decide on their own that Ukraine is full of nazis etc.imposter2.0 said:
He thinks it for the reasons stated..rick_chasey said:
4. He thinks it.Stevo_666 said:
At a guess there are a few possible explanations:thegreatdivide said:
1. These are the people who get their info from State TV and swallow the govt narrative hook, line and sinker.
2. They are government plants paid to say that.
3. They are ordinary people who are aware of the FSB heavy standing behind the camera who will cart them off if they go off message.
There are plenty of people who can see through the propaganda. It's not hard to work it out.
Until last month it wasn't total dominance and control by the state.
Russia doesn't really have a great fire-wall like China does. In fact, it only relatively recently started limiting access.
Hell, even my parents can work a VPN to get foreign TV. It's not that hard.
I know it's comforting to think that people can be brainwashed to believe or conduct awful things, but the reality is there is a lot propensity in people to invite those ideas and behaviours.
Sometimes people are just bad and they believe awful things. They are their own agents, they act on their own ideas. They can chose to believe or not.
Some cultures are cultures that lend themselves much more easily to abhorrent behaviour.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_freedom_in_Russia
We all know Stevo is right on this.
theres always a first time, eh? 😀😀😀😀🤣🤣
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
One thing Putin has focused on while being in power is controlling the message.
This is from Wiki on Russian Internet interference in the period 2012-2020 as an example:
"Developments since 2012
Establishment and expansion of the blacklist
First countrywide judicial censorship measures were taken by the government in the wake of the 2011–13 Russian protests. This included the Internet blacklist law, implemented in November 2012. The criteria for inclusion in the blacklist initially included child pornography, advocating suicide and illegal drugs. In 2013, the blacklist law was amended with content "suspected in extremism", "calling for illegal meetings", "inciting hatred" and "violating the established order".[37]
The law allowed for flexible interpretation and inclusion of a wide array of content which was frequently abused by the law enforcement and administration for blanket blocking of publications criticizing state policy or describing daily problems of life in Russia.
Popular opposition websites encouraging protests against the court rulings in Bolotnaya Square case were for example blocked for "calling for illegal action"; Dumb Ways to Die, a public transport safety video, was blocked as "suicide propaganda"; websites discussing federalization of Siberia—as "attack on the foundations of the constitution"; an article on a gay activist being fired from job as well as LGBT support communities—as "propaganda of non-traditional sex relations"; publishing Pussy Riot logo—as "insult of the feelings of believers"; criticism of overspending of local governor—"insult of the authorities"; publishing a poem in support of Ukraine—"inciting hatred" etc.[3][2] A separate class of materials blocked due to "extremism" are several religious publications, mostly Muslim and Jehovah's Witnesses. Bans can be challenged in courts, and in some cases these appeals are successful.[38][39]
Main article: List of websites blocked in Russia
Proposals for further controls Edit
In 2015, Russia's Security Council proposed a number of further Internet controls to prevent hostile "influence on the population of the country, especially young people, intended to weaken cultural and spiritual values". Prevention of this "influence" also includes active countermeasures such as actions targeted at the population and young people of the states attempting to weaken Russia's cultural values.[40] Another initiative proposes giving Roskomnadzor right to block any domain within the .ru TLD without a court order.[41]
In February 2016, the business daily Vedomosti reported on a draft law by the Ministry of Telecom and Mass Communications titled "On an Autonomous Internet System". The bill calls for placing the domains .ru and .рф under government control and would make installation of the Russian state surveillance system SORM mandatory.[2]
Ban on VPN and anonymizer providers Edit
A ban on all software and websites related to circumventing internet filtering in Russia, including VPN software, anonymizers, and instructions on how to circumvent government website blocking, was passed in 2017.[42]
Increase in Internet censorship Edit
According to data published by the Russian Society for Internet Users founded by members of the Presidential Council for Human Rights, instances of censorship increased by a factor of 1.5 from 2013 to 2014. The incidents documented include not only instances of Internet blocking but also the use of force to shut down Internet users, such as beatings of bloggers or police raids.[43]
Human rights NGO Agora reported that instances of Internet censorship increased ninefold from 2014 to 2015, rising from 1,019 to 9,022.[44]
In April 2018, a Moscow court ordered the ban and blockage of the messaging app Telegram under anti-terrorism laws, for refusing to cooperate with the FSB and provide access to encrypted communications.[45][46] Sales of virtual private network services increased significantly in the wake of the ban.[47]
The FSB has also started lobbying against any "external" satellite Internet access initiatives, including proposals to introduce stricter controls against satellite Internet receivers,[48] as well as opposition against Roskosmos taking orders to bring OneWeb satellites to space.[49]
In December 2018, Google was fined 500,000 rubles for not removing blacklisted sites from its search results.[50]
In March 2019, legislation was passed to ban the publication of "unreliable socially significant information", and materials that show "clear disrespect" for the Russian Federation or "bodies exercising state power".[51] Russian media freedom watchdog Roskomsvoboda reported that a number of people were charged with administrative fines for simply sharing a video about insufficient school places in Krasnodar Krai on their Facebook pages, because the video was authored by "Open Russia", who is considered an "undesirable organization" by Russian authorities.[52] The watchdog also noted an increasing trend of law enforcement using article 20.33 of the administrative violations code ("undesirable organizations"), which seems to be gradually replacing article 282 of the criminal code ("extremism") as the primary censorship instrument.""I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
So why do the people who I know in Russia know it's all f*cking stupid?
Come on. The reason the struggle against this stuff is a real struggle is plenty of people are pretty relaxed about it, and if they think they benefit ,they don't care.
Brexit and MAGA are cases in point. They're not brainwashed. They're open to this stuff anyway and someone gives legitimacy to it and feeds it to em and they welcome it.
Don't give people a get-out for this stuff. It's your own responsibility to think for yourself. Period.
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You probably don't interact with average Russians.rick_chasey said:So why do the people who I know in Russia know it's all f*cking stupid?
Come on. The reason the struggle against this stuff is a real struggle is plenty of people are pretty relaxed about it, and if they think they benefit ,they don't care.
Brexit and MAGA are cases in point. They're not brainwashed. They're open to this stuff anyway and someone gives legitimacy to it and feeds it to em and they welcome it.
Don't give people a get-out for this stuff. It's your own responsibility to think for yourself. Period.1 -
If you want to absolve people of their responsibility to think for themselves because it makes you feel better that's your call.
The argument didn't work at Nurenburg, it doesn't work in the Hague, and it will never work.
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The people you 'know' in russia are not the types of people we have been referring to. You will only know well paid, well educated middle and senior management types.rick_chasey said:So why do the people who I know in Russia know it's all f*cking stupid?
Come on. The reason the struggle against this stuff is a real struggle is plenty of people are pretty relaxed about it, and if they think they benefit ,they don't care.
Brexit and MAGA are cases in point. They're not brainwashed. They're open to this stuff anyway and someone gives legitimacy to it and feeds it to em and they welcome it.
Don't give people a get-out for this stuff. It's your own responsibility to think for yourself. Period.
as with most of the circle of people you 'know' they are not at all representative of the whole.
Or do you really think that outside of the white collar type workers in the cities everyone has access to the internet, smart TVs, international satellite tv?
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So who do you know in Russia Dorset? You down with the local in Siberia or Volgograd?
Nonsense argument. You take responsibility for your beliefs and your actions. It's entirely up to you if you want to believe things or not.
You really don't have to believe some people are sub-human just because people say so.
Don't give people the get out to absolve themselves. That bastard being interviewed believes what he says and we should judge him for it. End of.1 -
Oh for FS Rick. Your first line is pathetic.
Russia like most countries, isn't all about the cities or the white collar worker.
Do you really think the people you claim to know are representative of all Russians?
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FA beat me to it. You (and I) know Russians who are educated types who do have Internet access and look at other sources.rick_chasey said:So why do the people who I know in Russia know it's all f*cking stupid?
Come on. The reason the struggle against this stuff is a real struggle is plenty of people are pretty relaxed about it, and if they think they benefit ,they don't care.
Brexit and MAGA are cases in point. They're not brainwashed. They're open to this stuff anyway and someone gives legitimacy to it and feeds it to em and they welcome it.
Don't give people a get-out for this stuff. It's your own responsibility to think for yourself. Period."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
You totally misunderstand and misjudge.rick_chasey said:You sound like a bunch of apologists, the lot of ya.
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Spot on.Dorset_Boy said:
You totally misunderstand and misjudge.rick_chasey said:You sound like a bunch of apologists, the lot of ya.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
You misunderstand the point.Dorset_Boy said:Oh for FS Rick. Your first line is pathetic.
Russia like most countries, isn't all about the cities or the white collar worker.
Do you really think the people you claim to know are representative of all Russians?
They are capable of working out for themselves what is right and what isn't.
So clearly the opportunity is there. It's about whether you take it or not. That's a choice.
You make out there is no choice. I am saying there plainly is. These pro-Putin lot are choosing that.0 -
From memory they used to suffer in years when there were bad harvests back in the Soviet era. I assume sanctions would take them back to a similar position, I recall images of queues for bread and other essentials back in those days.pblakeney said:
That's what I thought, and feared. Unless someone up top gets annoyed enough to "hit" him then they make no difference.laurentian said:
My guess is that, in terms of subsistence, they're probably pretty well positioned. Minerals, oil, vast agricultural areas etc.pblakeney said:A couple of questions that I am pondering. How self sufficient is Russia?
How long can they go on with sanctions making little difference?
However, there is a difference between subsistence and living as many in Russia would like to or are used to especially those toward the higher end of the socio-economic spectrum. As somebody said upthread, the sanctions are unlikley to make much difference at all to those at the lower end of that spectrum.
I'm pretty sure that if Russia got its shittogether it could be pretty much self sufficient indefinitely.0 -
That was my original thinking but hoping for bad weather/crops seems a bit wooly.Pross said:
From memory they used to suffer in years when there were bad harvests back in the Soviet era. I assume sanctions would take them back to a similar position, I recall images of queues for bread and other essentials back in those days.pblakeney said:
That's what I thought, and feared. Unless someone up top gets annoyed enough to "hit" him then they make no difference.laurentian said:
My guess is that, in terms of subsistence, they're probably pretty well positioned. Minerals, oil, vast agricultural areas etc.pblakeney said:A couple of questions that I am pondering. How self sufficient is Russia?
How long can they go on with sanctions making little difference?
However, there is a difference between subsistence and living as many in Russia would like to or are used to especially those toward the higher end of the socio-economic spectrum. As somebody said upthread, the sanctions are unlikley to make much difference at all to those at the lower end of that spectrum.
I'm pretty sure that if Russia got its shittogether it could be pretty much self sufficient indefinitely.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
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More from Wiki, this time on Russian TV censorship
The government has been using direct ownership, or ownership by large private companies with government links, to control or influence major national media and regional media outlets, especially television. There were reports of self-censorship in the television and print media, particularly on issues critical of the government.[6][112][113]
As to a 2016 Mediastandart Foundation survey, most of the Russian journalists feel that they are not free and independent, and believe that media owners undermine the independence of journalists.[114] According to Alexey Kudrin, Russia's former Minister of Finance and current head of the Civil Initiative Committee, "in the regions, the number of independent media is progressively declining. The same happens on the federal level—major corporations and state institutions exercise influence on the media."[114]
In the 15 years after 1990 most of the Russian print media underwent a change of ownership. Many of them disappeared, others changed owners repeatedly.[115] After the new Law on Mass Media was adopted in 1991, the first stage of privatization of the media market followed.[116] The term "oligarchs", including "media oligarchs", started to be used specifically in Russia indicating powerful businessmen close to political power. The latter, made them the "chosen ones" in the redistribution of the country's wealth after the Soviet Union's dissolution.[117] Since the election of Vladimir Putin in 1999, only oligarchs loyal to the government are able to maintain their control on strategic sectors of Russian economy and politic such as the information one.[117]
Over 5 years between 2011 and 2016 the government forced changes of ownership over 12 significant newsrooms with all-country reach, all of them previously associated with honest and independent reporting. RBC, Forbes, Russian Media Group, TV2, Russkaya Planeta, REN TV, Grani.ru, Lenta.ru, Rain TV, RIA Novosti, Gazeta.ru and Kommersant were suppressed or taken over using different techniques - some of the, with government owned shares were completely disbanded and their resources passed to newly created bodies under control of state-approved managers (e.g. RIA Novosti), while Rain TV was forcibly removed from TV channels and only allowed to continue business as an Internet-only station.[118]
All but one national TV channel are fully or partially owned by the state. The last channel – NTV – is owned by Gazprom, in which the state has a controlling stake. The situation in the radio market is similar. Major information channels are somehow controlled by the state.[115]
As of 2009, the Russian government owns 60% of newspapers, and in whole or in part, all national television stations.[113][119]
In 2008, the BBC has stated in recent years, that companies with close links to the Government, state-owned Gazprom among them, have bought several of the most influential papers.[120]
As to the IREX association Media Sustainability Index, in smaller cities, private independent media are often the only sources of local news, because local municipal newspapers publish only official information.[114]
Russian antimonopoly regulation is still evolving, with many uncertainties and compliance challenges remaining. Many of the key provisions of the Competition Law are unclear and open to interpretation. For this reason, they require further interpretation by Russian courts.[121]
Moreover, governmental control over media is in addition exercised through the distribution of state subsidies and advertising revenues.[114]"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
And more:
Government control over the broadcast media Edit
Observers have noted the loss of the independence of national television stations.[122][123][124] As stated by the BBC, two out of the three main federal channels Channel One and Russia TV are controlled by the government, since they are completely or partially owned by the Rosimuschestvo (the Federal Agency for State Property Management). Instead, state-controlled energy giant Gazprom owns NTV.[125]
Russia TV (Rossiya) covers 98.5% of the country's territory and is state- owned. Channel One (Pervyj Kanal) covers 98.8% of Russia's territory and has a shared state and private ownership (51% state- 49% private).[115] However, most of the private shareholders include National Media Group (controlled by the structures of Yuri Kovalchuk, Chairman of the Board of Rossiya Bank, one of the largest banks in Russia, and Vladimir Putin's personal friend; and Roman Abramovich, owner of Chelsea football club and Putin's ally). NTV covers 84% of the national territory.[115]
According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, "All three major television networks are now in the hands of Kremlin loyalists."[126] Indeed, while Rossiya TV (Channel Russia) was state-owned since its foundation in 1991, major shareholders of ORT and NTV (Boris Berezovsky and Vladimir Gusinsky, respectively) sold their stocks to the government and Gazprom in 2000–2001. Moreover, TV6, a media outlet owned by Berezovsky, was closed in 2002 using a legal loophole. In 2003 TVS channel which was formed mainly of former NTV and TV6 was closed due to financial problems.[127][116]
Along with that, plenty of media outlets actively develop now while state participation in them is minimal.[128] There are private Russian TV networks with the broadcast cover reaching the majority of the Russia's population: REN TV (known for the daily analytical talk show with Tigran Keosayan, analytical news program "Week" with Marianna Maksimovskaya), TV Center ( known for "Postscriptum" with Aleksey Pushkov, "Moment of Truth" with Andrey Karaulov), Petersburg - Channel 5.
Liberal opposition TV-Channel RTVi owned by Vladimir Gusinsky is not broadcast in Russia, but available in that country through networks of cable and satellite television, MMDS and IPTV networks.[129] A former editor of a program on that channel, Vladimir Kara-Murza, believes it is the merit of the RTVi that the possibility of a third presidential term of Vladimir Putin was prevented, and that the "backdoor political technologists" were made to "abide to the Constitution, albeit with the Successor operation".[130]
On 29 January 2014, the largest Russian TV providers, after key politicians expressed their discontent, disconnected Dozhd channel in response to a survey on its website and in live "Dilettants" discussing program. The survey asked if Leningrad should have been surrendered to the invading Nazi army in order to save hundreds of thousands of lives.[131]
Top state television channels frequently apply self-censorship, avoiding any controversial topics that might impact the public image of the authorities. For example, massive truck drivers protests across the country were never even mentioned in the First Channel in spite of wide coverage in local and independent media and requests of the viewers.[132]
The situation in the radio market is similar. Major information channels are in one way or another controlled by the state.[115] Only four Russian radios broadcast political talk shows: Mayak, Radio Rossii, Vesti FM, and Ekho Moskvy. Mayak, Vesti FM and Radio Rossii are state-owned (Rosimushchestvo), while Ekho Moskvy is owned by the state-controlled Gazprom Media.[116] A complete list of the audiovisual services in Russia can be found in the MAVISE Database, made by the European Audiovisual Observatory. Such list includes the ownership of TV channels and on-demand services.[133]"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Anyone else think Rick is being a bit naive about the level of state influence on its citizens in Russia?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
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This. The chances are that the people any of us get to know in Russia are higher educated and more international in their outlook (or we wouldn't have a chance to get to know them). Only around 7% of Russians travel abroad annually and about 67% of those over 55 have never left Russia. That older age group will have also grown up under the Soviet system and will therefore be indoctrinated into accepting the word of the state.First.Aspect said:
You probably don't interact with average Russians.rick_chasey said:So why do the people who I know in Russia know it's all f*cking stupid?
Come on. The reason the struggle against this stuff is a real struggle is plenty of people are pretty relaxed about it, and if they think they benefit ,they don't care.
Brexit and MAGA are cases in point. They're not brainwashed. They're open to this stuff anyway and someone gives legitimacy to it and feeds it to em and they welcome it.
Don't give people a get-out for this stuff. It's your own responsibility to think for yourself. Period.0 -
Sure but that's where a lack of alternative supply options comes into effect. The sanctions will also affect the lifestyles of the rich and powerful who will eventually get fed up of missing out on life's luxuries. Add to that, Putin's rumoured health issues and he hopefully won't be around for long.pblakeney said:
That was my original thinking but hoping for bad weather/crops seems a bit wooly.Pross said:
From memory they used to suffer in years when there were bad harvests back in the Soviet era. I assume sanctions would take them back to a similar position, I recall images of queues for bread and other essentials back in those days.pblakeney said:
That's what I thought, and feared. Unless someone up top gets annoyed enough to "hit" him then they make no difference.laurentian said:
My guess is that, in terms of subsistence, they're probably pretty well positioned. Minerals, oil, vast agricultural areas etc.pblakeney said:A couple of questions that I am pondering. How self sufficient is Russia?
How long can they go on with sanctions making little difference?
However, there is a difference between subsistence and living as many in Russia would like to or are used to especially those toward the higher end of the socio-economic spectrum. As somebody said upthread, the sanctions are unlikley to make much difference at all to those at the lower end of that spectrum.
I'm pretty sure that if Russia got its shittogether it could be pretty much self sufficient indefinitely.0
