Poo tin... Put@in...
Comments
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Nonsense argument. You take responsibility for your beliefs and your actions. It's entirely up to you if you want to believe things or not.
Can't say I agree with this, many people are deeply affected by personal experience and trauma in particular, which I am sure has a lasting impact on some people's ability to create their own agency. Think of people who belong to a cult, conspiracy theorists, religious extremists for example. I am sure there are some common psychological themes amongst all of these, which play a big part in an individual's vulnerability to extreme views and actions.
Look at the growing number of conspiracy theorists in this country, covid deniers especially over the last two years. I know a few people who have fallen down the rabbit hole, each and every one of them had some fairly bad life experiences which made them vulnerable to manipulation. They all had a strong need to belong to something and find validation, this can often lead people to taking on ideas and beliefs without really understanding why, or even questioning it. I would say that in instances such as this, people's ability to question, form their own opinions, and reject abhorrent or even ludicrous views, becomes diminished.0 -
Re the points being made that Rick (and others who know Russians) are only interacting with metropolitan elites, for want of a better term...
The ones being interviewed in that clip didn't exactly look like subsistence farmers did they.
Impossible for us to know how representative their view are though, and whether they are even really their views.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
Rickrick_chasey said:So why do the people who I know in Russia know it's all f*cking stupid?
Come on. The reason the struggle against this stuff is a real struggle is plenty of people are pretty relaxed about it, and if they think they benefit ,they don't care.
Brexit and MAGA are cases in point. They're not brainwashed. They're open to this stuff anyway and someone gives legitimacy to it and feeds it to em and they welcome it.
Don't give people a get-out for this stuff. It's your own responsibility to think for yourself. Period.
you're being all dinner party again
these people think they are thinking for themselves but they're just thinking what the state has wanted them to think for the past 15 generations.
they don't know how to think for themselves outside of what they are doing which is what they think is thinking for themselves..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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And the print media:
Government control over print media Edit
Kommersant-Vlast, Expert, and the New Times are weeklies that provide serious analysis of the current political issues . However, they are owned by oligarchs who openly support the government. Kommersant-Vlast is produced by Kommersant Publishing House that is owned by Alisher Usmanov. Expert is a part of Expert Media Holding that is owned by Oleg Deripaska's Basic Element and a Russian state corporation—Vnesheconombank.[116]"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Worth considering that the media is manipulated worldwide.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Population of Russia is approx 145 million. I can imagine that a fair proportion only dip in and out of what’s going on in the news every now and then and don’t spend umpteen hours every day having theoretical debates on chat forums.0
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We're all responsible for our own actions. Period.
I thought I was all wokey dokey but this is taking the p!ss.
In this day and age, people are saying that people are brain washed because there is some aggressive state media?
Honestly.
I hope the judges when they are judging the war crimes aren't as soft as you lot.1 -
Is it worthwhile re watching the video?
These aren't vague noises about supporting the troop that some of the interviewees are making.0 -
agree and the views are abhorrent.
all the noises about sending people back to where they came from after Brexit weren't vague eitherand equally abhorrent.
tbh, the probably didn't think that showing the fella who said "well, its a bitshit but what can I do" would make good tv for them..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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How is this connected to us being soft on war crimes? Completely different issue. You're talking bollox again.rick_chasey said:We're all responsible for our own actions. Period.
I thought I was all wokey dokey but this is taking the p!ss.
In this day and age, people are saying that people are brain washed because there is some aggressive state media?
Honestly.
I hope the judges when they are judging the war crimes aren't as soft as you lot."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Did you listen to the interview?Stevo_666 said:
How is this connected to us being soft on war crimes? Completely different issue. You're talking bollox again.rick_chasey said:We're all responsible for our own actions. Period.
I thought I was all wokey dokey but this is taking the p!ss.
In this day and age, people are saying that people are brain washed because there is some aggressive state media?
Honestly.
I hope the judges when they are judging the war crimes aren't as soft as you lot.
Where are you drawing the line between being responsible for what you think and do and not?
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Rickrick_chasey said:
Did you listen to the interview?Stevo_666 said:
How is this connected to us being soft on war crimes? Completely different issue. You're talking bollox again.rick_chasey said:We're all responsible for our own actions. Period.
I thought I was all wokey dokey but this is taking the p!ss.
In this day and age, people are saying that people are brain washed because there is some aggressive state media?
Honestly.
I hope the judges when they are judging the war crimes aren't as soft as you lot.
Where are you drawing the line between being responsible for what you think and do and not?
these people are thinking what they think because its thd only way they know how to think..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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rick_chasey said:
We're all responsible for our own actions. Period.
I thought I was all wokey dokey but this is taking the p!ss.
In this day and age, people are saying that people are brain washed because there is some aggressive state media?
Honestly.
I hope the judges when they are judging the war crimes aren't as soft as you lot.
Agree that everyone is responsible for their own actions.
As for the interview, who knows how many people they interviewed before they stumbled across this knucklehead? Kinda the same in the UK where it wouldn’t be particularly hard to find someone that wouldn’t take in asylum seekers, for example. Sadly not everyone is as open minded and inquisitive as we’d hope - history is littered with examples of how the narrow minded and indifferent can be manipulated by politicians.1 -
Yes, of course I did. That's why I'm commenting on the possible reasons.rick_chasey said:
Did you listen to the interview?Stevo_666 said:
How is this connected to us being soft on war crimes? Completely different issue. You're talking bollox again.rick_chasey said:We're all responsible for our own actions. Period.
I thought I was all wokey dokey but this is taking the p!ss.
In this day and age, people are saying that people are brain washed because there is some aggressive state media?
Honestly.
I hope the judges when they are judging the war crimes aren't as soft as you lot.
Where are you drawing the line between being responsible for what you think and do and not?
In a semi totalitarian system such as Russia, do you not think some of the responsibility lies with the state, who are controlling the media and therefore influencing what people think."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Agree with this - Russia has had a freer (more free?) media than we might think yet Putin still seems to have a reasonably high level of support.rick_chasey said:
Is flicking the channel really that hard?Stevo_666 said:
The point DB is making is that a lot of them never really had that access.rick_chasey said:
Until this month there were plenty of opportunities to see other views. 5 years ago even more so. 5 years before that, again, even more so.Dorset_Boy said:
Only those with access to outside sources have the opportunity to see through the propaganda, so not your rural living or working class city dwelling Russian, or probably most of their older population.rick_chasey said:
Someone somewhere is deciding that they are and if it's utter nonsense to people they won't be beleived.Stevo_666 said:
Well quite. A lot of ordinary Russians have no internet access and rely on state TV for their view of the world. They don't just wake up in the morning and decide on their own that Ukraine is full of nazis etc.imposter2.0 said:
He thinks it for the reasons stated..rick_chasey said:
4. He thinks it.Stevo_666 said:
At a guess there are a few possible explanations:thegreatdivide said:
1. These are the people who get their info from State TV and swallow the govt narrative hook, line and sinker.
2. They are government plants paid to say that.
3. They are ordinary people who are aware of the FSB heavy standing behind the camera who will cart them off if they go off message.
There are plenty of people who can see through the propaganda. It's not hard to work it out.
Until last month it wasn't total dominance and control by the state.
Russia doesn't really have a great fire-wall like China does. In fact, it only relatively recently started limiting access.
Hell, even my parents can work a VPN to get foreign TV. It's not that hard.
I know it's comforting to think that people can be brainwashed to believe or conduct awful things, but the reality is there is a lot propensity in people to invite those ideas and behaviours.
Sometimes people are just bad and they believe awful things. They are their own agents, they act on their own ideas. They can chose to believe or not.
Some cultures are cultures that lend themselves much more easily to abhorrent behaviour.
It's difficult - I suppose nationalism will always have an audience - people are tribal and Putin is appealing to them as the protector of their tribe. The history of Russia being in opposition to the West must help that - it's nothing new to them to see the USA etc all as the other side. It's like Newcastle fans welcoming Saudi money but on a grand scale.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Many independent polls outside of Russia have interviewed Russians who are significantly in favour of the war (70% or so)
Even a lot the ones who are westernised are revolting scumbags. Maybe too many years of brainwash - but as noted, it wasn't always like that.
Maybe too many years of scraping a living with the fear of gulags and death and horror stories from parents, but the again these are the middle classes.0 -
Perhaps fox could send him to mariupol to find out?MattFalle said:its not just Russins saying this though.
Here, Tucker Carlson, Fox presenter, stalwart of Trump has his say.
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tell me about it !Pross said:
From memory they used to suffer in years when there were bad harvests back in the Soviet era. I assume sanctions would take them back to a similar position, I recall images of queues for bread and other essentials back in those days.
BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
Instagramme0 -
davidof said:
tell me about it !Pross said:
From memory they used to suffer in years when there were bad harvests back in the Soviet era. I assume sanctions would take them back to a similar position, I recall images of queues for bread and other essentials back in those days.
</blockquote
looks like Alsager.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Nah, they're too smartly dressed.MattFalle said:
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Mmm some sure.Stevo_666 said:
Yes, of course I did. That's why I'm commenting on the possible reasons.rick_chasey said:
Did you listen to the interview?Stevo_666 said:
How is this connected to us being soft on war crimes? Completely different issue. You're talking bollox again.rick_chasey said:We're all responsible for our own actions. Period.
I thought I was all wokey dokey but this is taking the p!ss.
In this day and age, people are saying that people are brain washed because there is some aggressive state media?
Honestly.
I hope the judges when they are judging the war crimes aren't as soft as you lot.
Where are you drawing the line between being responsible for what you think and do and not?
In a semi totalitarian system such as Russia, do you not think some of the responsibility lies with the state, who are controlling the media and therefore influencing what people think.
Ultimately power is derived from society, right?
If I started bossing people about no one would listen to me as they don’t afford me the legitimacy.
We don’t need to get too academic but if everyone turned around and said “nah Putin, this isn’t happening, p!ss off” then he’d be done.
You can definitely work on a narrower base of support/legitimacy if you use more extreme measures of coercion, as long as you have the military and police on side, but in order to do that you need a material amount of people at least to be OK with being quite extreme.
The threat of torture only works if you have people willing to torture etc.
So I think there is play in the relationship and it’s not a linear relationship but you ultimately get the leadership society allows for, with a bit of lag.
We gonna give the guys who committed the war crimes in Ukraine a free pass because they’ve been indoctrinated by Russian propaganda?
Hell no.
The Soviets stoped being Soviets in the early 90s and Putin only came to power in his current guise in 2008 and even then he didn’t have the grip he does now.
That’s a good 15-20 years to realise you were sold a pup.0 -
middle class wokebollocks.rick_chasey said:
Mmm some sure.Stevo_666 said:
Yes, of course I did. That's why I'm commenting on the possible reasons.rick_chasey said:
Did you listen to the interview?Stevo_666 said:
How is this connected to us being soft on war crimes? Completely different issue. You're talking bollox again.rick_chasey said:We're all responsible for our own actions. Period.
I thought I was all wokey dokey but this is taking the p!ss.
In this day and age, people are saying that people are brain washed because there is some aggressive state media?
Honestly.
I hope the judges when they are judging the war crimes aren't as soft as you lot.
Where are you drawing the line between being responsible for what you think and do and not?
In a semi totalitarian system such as Russia, do you not think some of the responsibility lies with the state, who are controlling the media and therefore influencing what people think.
Ultimately power is derived from society, right?
If I started bossing people about no one would listen to me as they don’t afford me the legitimacy.
We don’t need to get too academic but if everyone turned around and said “nah Putin, this isn’t happening, p!ss off” then he’d be done.
You can definitely work on a narrower base of support/legitimacy if you use more extreme measures of coercion, as long as you have the military and police on side, but in order to do that you need a material amount of people at least to be OK with being quite extreme.
The threat of torture only works if you have people willing to torture etc.
So I think there is play in the relationship and it’s not a linear relationship but you ultimately get the leadership society allows for, with a bit of lag.
We gonna give the guys who committed the war crimes in Ukraine a free pass because they’ve been indoctrinated by Russian propaganda?
Hell no.
The Soviets stoped being Soviets in the early 90s and Putin only came to power in his current guise in 2008 and even then he didn’t have the grip he does now.
That’s a good 15-20 years to realise you were sold a pup.
power is held at the top. that bloke has an AK and no conscience.
Your call Rick.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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rick_chasey said:
The threat of torture only works if you have people willing to torture etc.
You obviously know this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
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Sure I mean that experiment is a bit flawed but yeah, people aren’t naturally peace loving free speech loving softie democrats. You have to work at it.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:The threat of torture only works if you have people willing to torture etc.
You obviously know this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
The sad thing is these awful dictators are propped up by a whole bunch of people who are ok with it. And they often have a fair bit of support.
These atrocities in Bucha weren’t done by Putin personally were they?
Someone tied the men up. Someone shot them in the head or chest.
They don’t get a pass because someone told them to do it.0 -
rick_chasey said:
Sure I mean that experiment is a bit flawed but yeah, people aren’t naturally peace loving free speech loving softie democrats. You have to work at it.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:The threat of torture only works if you have people willing to torture etc.
You obviously know this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
The sad thing is these awful dictators are propped up by a whole bunch of people who are ok with it. And they often have a fair bit of support.
These atrocities in Bucha weren’t done by Putin personally were they?
Someone tied the men up. Someone shot them in the head or chest.
They don’t get a pass because someone told them to do it.
I don't think anyone's giving them a free pass on here, but you seem to be saying that everyone in Putin's Russia is capable of accessing a range of opinions and are educated enough to be able to see through the deep indoctrination that Putin and his system have been deploying.
I think you're wrong on that count, by a long way. As the Milgram Experiment showed, people will do terrible things, even without indoctrination.3 -
This is literally what I *am* saying.briantrumpet said:
I think you're wrong on that count, by a long way. As the Milgram Experiment showed, people will do terrible things, even without indoctrination.0 -
Also, nobody said anything about letting anybody off anything because they have been indoctrinated.MattFalle said:
middle class wokebollocks.rick_chasey said:
Mmm some sure.Stevo_666 said:
Yes, of course I did. That's why I'm commenting on the possible reasons.rick_chasey said:
Did you listen to the interview?Stevo_666 said:
How is this connected to us being soft on war crimes? Completely different issue. You're talking bollox again.rick_chasey said:We're all responsible for our own actions. Period.
I thought I was all wokey dokey but this is taking the p!ss.
In this day and age, people are saying that people are brain washed because there is some aggressive state media?
Honestly.
I hope the judges when they are judging the war crimes aren't as soft as you lot.
Where are you drawing the line between being responsible for what you think and do and not?
In a semi totalitarian system such as Russia, do you not think some of the responsibility lies with the state, who are controlling the media and therefore influencing what people think.
Ultimately power is derived from society, right?
If I started bossing people about no one would listen to me as they don’t afford me the legitimacy.
We don’t need to get too academic but if everyone turned around and said “nah Putin, this isn’t happening, p!ss off” then he’d be done.
You can definitely work on a narrower base of support/legitimacy if you use more extreme measures of coercion, as long as you have the military and police on side, but in order to do that you need a material amount of people at least to be OK with being quite extreme.
The threat of torture only works if you have people willing to torture etc.
So I think there is play in the relationship and it’s not a linear relationship but you ultimately get the leadership society allows for, with a bit of lag.
We gonna give the guys who committed the war crimes in Ukraine a free pass because they’ve been indoctrinated by Russian propaganda?
Hell no.
The Soviets stoped being Soviets in the early 90s and Putin only came to power in his current guise in 2008 and even then he didn’t have the grip he does now.
That’s a good 15-20 years to realise you were sold a pup.
power is held at the top. that bloke has an AK and no conscience.
Your call Rick"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
This.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:
Sure I mean that experiment is a bit flawed but yeah, people aren’t naturally peace loving free speech loving softie democrats. You have to work at it.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:The threat of torture only works if you have people willing to torture etc.
You obviously know this one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
The sad thing is these awful dictators are propped up by a whole bunch of people who are ok with it. And they often have a fair bit of support.
These atrocities in Bucha weren’t done by Putin personally were they?
Someone tied the men up. Someone shot them in the head or chest.
They don’t get a pass because someone told them to do it.
I don't think anyone's giving them a free pass on here, but you seem to be saying that everyone in Putin's Russia is capable of accessing a range of opinions and are educated enough to be able to see through the deep indoctrination that Putin and his system have been deploying.
I think you're wrong on that count, by a long way. As the Milgram Experiment showed, people will do terrible things, even without indoctrination.
Unfortunately the world is a far different place from the one that exists in Rick's brain.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0
