Poo tin... Put@in...
Comments
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NATO needs to step up and start playing the Russian game of total denial. If Moon Faced steroid guy and his scum army can stand up and say 'nope - we didn't murder any civilians' then it's fair game.
Those crafty Ukrainian pilots must have come into Poland and stolen those fuelled up and flight ready Migs. We certainly didn't give them the keys.
Those crafty Ukrainian air defence specialists must have nicked those Patriot missiles we left at the Polish border when Steve went for a pish. Don't worry though - Steve's going to get a dressing down!
FFS they've gone a nicked 50 self propelled guns now!
Obviously none of this had anything to do with us.1 -
The Russian army doesn't appear to be bothered how many people they kill, even their own soldiers.Pross said:
Mariupol seems a pretty clear cut example of a war crime as there doesn't seem to have been any attempt by the Russians to follow the requirements of international law in respect of warning, allowing humanitarian aid to prevent starvation or avoid indicriminate killing.
But I'd like to see a more thorough investigation of the Botchka events as it seems to be a step up from the usual brutality.
BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
Instagramme0 -
At the risk of getting sucked into a long argument with MF, what the Russian army is currently doing is the same thing most armies have done throughout history, with modern Western armies being one of the notable exception to that.
And not that this qualifies my comments that much, but just for full disclosure my grandfather was a Staff Sergeant in REME.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I assume that once this is over and safe access is achievable the UN will send in forensic teams like they did in the former Yugoslavia. I'm not convinced that as the Ukrainians drive the Russians out of these places the first thing on their mind is trying to stage things to look like war crimes took place.davidof said:
The Russian army doesn't appear to be bothered how many people they kill, even their own soldiers.Pross said:
Mariupol seems a pretty clear cut example of a war crime as there doesn't seem to have been any attempt by the Russians to follow the requirements of international law in respect of warning, allowing humanitarian aid to prevent starvation or avoid indicriminate killing.
But I'd like to see a more thorough investigation of the Botchka events as it seems to be a step up from the usual brutality.0 -
At the risk of seeming to agree with RJST, he's completely and totally right, which is why we - and, at least, thbomk, all NATO armies spend so much time on LOAC.rjsterry said:At the risk of getting sucked into a long argument with MF, what the Russian army is currently doing is the same thing most armies have done throughout history, with modern Western armies being one of the notable exception to that.
And not that this qualifies my comments that much, but just for full disclosure my grandfather was a Staff Sergeant in REME..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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This - basicslly its Bosnia 2. And that was fuckinghorrible.Pross said:
I assume that once this is over and safe access is achievable the UN will send in forensic teams like they did in the former Yugoslavia. I'm not convinced that as the Ukrainians drive the Russians out of these places the first thing on their mind is trying to stage things to look like war crimes took place.davidof said:
The Russian army doesn't appear to be bothered how many people they kill, even their own soldiers.Pross said:
Mariupol seems a pretty clear cut example of a war crime as there doesn't seem to have been any attempt by the Russians to follow the requirements of international law in respect of warning, allowing humanitarian aid to prevent starvation or avoid indicriminate killing.
But I'd like to see a more thorough investigation of the Botchka events as it seems to be a step up from the usual brutality..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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its undoubted that they are doing it, whether its an order from the top to do it, an order from the top that they can do anything they want because of this "denazification"bullshit or they've just gone off and done it only time will tell.davidof said:
The Russian army doesn't appear to be bothered how many people they kill, even their own soldiers.Pross said:
Mariupol seems a pretty clear cut example of a war crime as there doesn't seem to have been any attempt by the Russians to follow the requirements of international law in respect of warning, allowing humanitarian aid to prevent starvation or avoid indicriminate killing.
But I'd like to see a more thorough investigation of the Botchka events as it seems to be a step up from the usual brutality.
TBh, the fact that they are all nicking microwaves, washing machines, etc, points to an order that has told them to strip the country of all assets snd destroy what they can't.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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or a complete breakdown in discipline?MattFalle said:
its undoubted that they are doing it, whether its an order from the top to do it, an order from the top that they can do anything they want because of this "denazification"bullshit or they've just gone off and done it only time will tell.davidof said:
The Russian army doesn't appear to be bothered how many people they kill, even their own soldiers.Pross said:
Mariupol seems a pretty clear cut example of a war crime as there doesn't seem to have been any attempt by the Russians to follow the requirements of international law in respect of warning, allowing humanitarian aid to prevent starvation or avoid indicriminate killing.
But I'd like to see a more thorough investigation of the Botchka events as it seems to be a step up from the usual brutality.
TBh, the fact that they are all nicking microwaves, washing machines, etc, points to an order that has told them to strip the country of all assets snd destroy what they can't0 -
deffo a potential factor, deffo, i wouldn't say that normally preempts the horrific events we've seensurrey_commuter said:
or a complete breakdown in discipline?MattFalle said:
its undoubted that they are doing it, whether its an order from the top to do it, an order from the top that they can do anything they want because of this "denazification"bullshit or they've just gone off and done it only time will tell.davidof said:
The Russian army doesn't appear to be bothered how many people they kill, even their own soldiers.Pross said:
Mariupol seems a pretty clear cut example of a war crime as there doesn't seem to have been any attempt by the Russians to follow the requirements of international law in respect of warning, allowing humanitarian aid to prevent starvation or avoid indicriminate killing.
But I'd like to see a more thorough investigation of the Botchka events as it seems to be a step up from the usual brutality.
TBh, the fact that they are all nicking microwaves, washing machines, etc, points to an order that has told them to strip the country of all assets snd destroy what they can't
breakdown in discipline normally leads to bods just buggering off, killing officers, odd civilian murder here and there, that sort of jazz - this is too big for an isolated bod, the digging and filling of mass graves requires organisation and planning - its all too structured.
what we do know is that its unforgiveable and horrific..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Probably very little discipline in the first place.surrey_commuter said:
or a complete breakdown in discipline?
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poor discipline caused by poor leadership....thegreatdivide said:
Probably very little discipline in the first place.surrey_commuter said:
or a complete breakdown in discipline?.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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poor discipline, scared and angry would lead to individual acts of brutality but as you say they would not be hanging around to dig gravesMattFalle said:
deffo a potential factor, deffo, i wouldn't say that normally preempts the horrific events we've seensurrey_commuter said:
or a complete breakdown in discipline?MattFalle said:
its undoubted that they are doing it, whether its an order from the top to do it, an order from the top that they can do anything they want because of this "denazification"bullshit or they've just gone off and done it only time will tell.davidof said:
The Russian army doesn't appear to be bothered how many people they kill, even their own soldiers.Pross said:
Mariupol seems a pretty clear cut example of a war crime as there doesn't seem to have been any attempt by the Russians to follow the requirements of international law in respect of warning, allowing humanitarian aid to prevent starvation or avoid indicriminate killing.
But I'd like to see a more thorough investigation of the Botchka events as it seems to be a step up from the usual brutality.
TBh, the fact that they are all nicking microwaves, washing machines, etc, points to an order that has told them to strip the country of all assets snd destroy what they can't
breakdown in discipline normally leads to bods just buggering off, killing officers, odd civilian murder here and there, that sort of jazz - this is too big for an isolated bod, the digging and filling of mass graves requires organisation and planning - its all too structured.
what we do know is that its unforgiveable and horrific.0 -
I don't think so, not directly anyway...MattFalle said:.
TBh, the fact that they are all nicking microwaves, washing machines, etc, points to an order that has told them to strip the country of all assets snd destroy what they can't
That's more a case of them not actually having such things at home. I never really put much thought into it when I was in Russia but if you stepped out if the rich CBD zone things went peasant very quickly.
There are modern, flash appartements like those on the banks of the Thames, horrific looking, clearly Soviet era flats and then wooden houses and mud paths.
Guess which part the bulk of the army is probably drawn from...
Edit - terrible source, but this sort of vibe
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Wasn't the Russians then!MattFalle said:
deffo a potential factor, deffo, i wouldn't say that normally preempts the horrific events we've seensurrey_commuter said:
or a complete breakdown in discipline?MattFalle said:
its undoubted that they are doing it, whether its an order from the top to do it, an order from the top that they can do anything they want because of this "denazification"bullshit or they've just gone off and done it only time will tell.davidof said:
The Russian army doesn't appear to be bothered how many people they kill, even their own soldiers.Pross said:
Mariupol seems a pretty clear cut example of a war crime as there doesn't seem to have been any attempt by the Russians to follow the requirements of international law in respect of warning, allowing humanitarian aid to prevent starvation or avoid indicriminate killing.
But I'd like to see a more thorough investigation of the Botchka events as it seems to be a step up from the usual brutality.
TBh, the fact that they are all nicking microwaves, washing machines, etc, points to an order that has told them to strip the country of all assets snd destroy what they can't
breakdown in discipline normally leads to bods just buggering off, killing officers, odd civilian murder here and there, that sort of jazz - this is too big for an isolated bod, the digging and filling of mass graves requires organisation and planning - its all too structured.
what we do know is that its unforgiveable and horrific.0 -
i disagree - how do you expect them to get them home?ddraver said:
I don't think so, directly anyway...MattFalle said:.
TBh, the fact that they are all nicking microwaves, washing machines, etc, points to an order that has told them to strip the country of all assets snd destroy what they can't
That's more a case of them not actually having such things at home. I never really put much thought into it when I was in Russia but if you stepped out if the rich CBD zone things went peasant very quickly.
There are modern, flash appartements like those on the banks of the Thames, horrific looking, clearly Soviet era flats and then wooden houses and mud paths.
Guess which part the bulk of the army is probably drawn from...
you turn up at the SQs with a washing machine under your arm and he'll tell you to jog on pretty quick - transporting this stuff takes personnel, space, logistics, time, fuel, money. Stuff the Russians don't have.
"Right - 1053 time lads. Seen when seen. Weapon? Seen. CEFO/CEMO? Seen Dozzer? Seen. Dishwasher? Mate, what ya doing? You were issued a Samsung, that's a Bosch."
You just don't go around nickingshit microwaves and tumbledriers to take home..
And I'd suggest the Army is made up from everywhere - they're not all shitkicking peasants no matter how much some people seem to think they are..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Points to what people have long said about the Soviet/Russian army - that the officer class is incompetent, the NCO cadre is corrupt and the conscripts are completely feral.MattFalle said:
poor discipline caused by poor leadership....thegreatdivide said:
Probably very little discipline in the first place.surrey_commuter said:
or a complete breakdown in discipline?0 -
Also not a lot of leadership left0
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nah - Staff Officer level doesn't matter, Screws and SNCOs run the Army.shirley_basso said:Also not a lot of leadership left
Officers do admin, Screws and SNCOs do the work. The Army runs on Screws.
The Russians have lost a load of Generals, so strategic command (COO/CEO/CFO level in civvie street). As far as I know, their field command level is still operating..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Suspect the Portuguese, Spanish, Italians and Greeks have little truck with the "need time to readjust the economy" regarding energy sanctions.
Wasn't faster less painful 10 years ago? hmm0 -
In WW2 the US Army offered a surprisingly generous monthly weight allowance for shipping goods home. This was not just when they were in Germany.MattFalle said:
i disagree - how do you expect them to get them home?ddraver said:
I don't think so, directly anyway...MattFalle said:.
TBh, the fact that they are all nicking microwaves, washing machines, etc, points to an order that has told them to strip the country of all assets snd destroy what they can't
That's more a case of them not actually having such things at home. I never really put much thought into it when I was in Russia but if you stepped out if the rich CBD zone things went peasant very quickly.
There are modern, flash appartements like those on the banks of the Thames, horrific looking, clearly Soviet era flats and then wooden houses and mud paths.
Guess which part the bulk of the army is probably drawn from...
you turn up at the SQs with a washing machine under your arm and he'll tell you to jog on pretty quick - transporting this stuff takes personnel, space, logistics, time, fuel, money. Stuff the Russians don't have.
"Right - 1053 time lads. Seen when seen. Weapon? Seen. CEFO/CEMO? Seen Dozzer? Seen. Dishwasher? Mate, what ya doing? You were issued a Samsung, that's a Bosch."
You just don't go around nickingshit microwaves and tumbledriers to take home..
And I'd suggest the Army is made up from everywhere - they're not all shitkicking peasants no matter how much some people seem to think they are.
I used to work with a French lady whose family had lost their furniture in the war0 -
that was WW2, this is now. USA then, as now had the money, time, etc.surrey_commuter said:
In WW2 the US Army offered a surprisingly generous monthly weight allowance for shipping goods home. This was not just when they were in Germany.MattFalle said:
i disagree - how do you expect them to get them home?ddraver said:
I don't think so, directly anyway...MattFalle said:.
TBh, the fact that they are all nicking microwaves, washing machines, etc, points to an order that has told them to strip the country of all assets snd destroy what they can't
That's more a case of them not actually having such things at home. I never really put much thought into it when I was in Russia but if you stepped out if the rich CBD zone things went peasant very quickly.
There are modern, flash appartements like those on the banks of the Thames, horrific looking, clearly Soviet era flats and then wooden houses and mud paths.
Guess which part the bulk of the army is probably drawn from...
you turn up at the SQs with a washing machine under your arm and he'll tell you to jog on pretty quick - transporting this stuff takes personnel, space, logistics, time, fuel, money. Stuff the Russians don't have.
"Right - 1053 time lads. Seen when seen. Weapon? Seen. CEFO/CEMO? Seen Dozzer? Seen. Dishwasher? Mate, what ya doing? You were issued a Samsung, that's a Bosch."
You just don't go around nickingshit microwaves and tumbledriers to take home..
And I'd suggest the Army is made up from everywhere - they're not all shitkicking peasants no matter how much some people seem to think they are.
I used to work with a French lady whose family had lost their furniture in the war
The Russians can't even get their dead home..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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double post.
The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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was more what I considered an interestng story and that sometimes the good guys do bad thingsMattFalle said:
that was WW2, this is now. USA then, as now had the money, time, etc.surrey_commuter said:
In WW2 the US Army offered a surprisingly generous monthly weight allowance for shipping goods home. This was not just when they were in Germany.MattFalle said:
i disagree - how do you expect them to get them home?ddraver said:
I don't think so, directly anyway...MattFalle said:.
TBh, the fact that they are all nicking microwaves, washing machines, etc, points to an order that has told them to strip the country of all assets snd destroy what they can't
That's more a case of them not actually having such things at home. I never really put much thought into it when I was in Russia but if you stepped out if the rich CBD zone things went peasant very quickly.
There are modern, flash appartements like those on the banks of the Thames, horrific looking, clearly Soviet era flats and then wooden houses and mud paths.
Guess which part the bulk of the army is probably drawn from...
you turn up at the SQs with a washing machine under your arm and he'll tell you to jog on pretty quick - transporting this stuff takes personnel, space, logistics, time, fuel, money. Stuff the Russians don't have.
"Right - 1053 time lads. Seen when seen. Weapon? Seen. CEFO/CEMO? Seen Dozzer? Seen. Dishwasher? Mate, what ya doing? You were issued a Samsung, that's a Bosch."
You just don't go around nickingshit microwaves and tumbledriers to take home..
And I'd suggest the Army is made up from everywhere - they're not all shitkicking peasants no matter how much some people seem to think they are.
I used to work with a French lady whose family had lost their furniture in the war
The Russians can't even get their dead home.0 -
not surprising to have such a poorMattFalle said:
poor discipline caused by poor leadership....thegreatdivide said:
Probably very little discipline in the first place.surrey_commuter said:
or a complete breakdown in discipline?
Some stories in the press about conscripts rocking up in Belarus Street markets selling nicked tat and even their own kit. Its what happens when the defense budget gets blown on yachts, palaces, Mayfair apartments and Mercedes cars.MattFalle said:
that was WW2, this is now. USA then, as now had the money, time, etc.surrey_commuter said:
In WW2 the US Army offered a surprisingly generous monthly weight allowance for shipping goods home. This was not just when they were in Germany.MattFalle said:
i disagree - how do you expect them to get them home?ddraver said:
I don't think so, directly anyway...MattFalle said:.
TBh, the fact that they are all nicking microwaves, washing machines, etc, points to an order that has told them to strip the country of all assets snd destroy what they can't
That's more a case of them not actually having such things at home. I never really put much thought into it when I was in Russia but if you stepped out if the rich CBD zone things went peasant very quickly.
There are modern, flash appartements like those on the banks of the Thames, horrific looking, clearly Soviet era flats and then wooden houses and mud paths.
Guess which part the bulk of the army is probably drawn from...
you turn up at the SQs with a washing machine under your arm and he'll tell you to jog on pretty quick - transporting this stuff takes personnel, space, logistics, time, fuel, money. Stuff the Russians don't have.
"Right - 1053 time lads. Seen when seen. Weapon? Seen. CEFO/CEMO? Seen Dozzer? Seen. Dishwasher? Mate, what ya doing? You were issued a Samsung, that's a Bosch."
You just don't go around nickingshit microwaves and tumbledriers to take home..
And I'd suggest the Army is made up from everywhere - they're not all shitkicking peasants no matter how much some people seem to think they are.
I used to work with a French lady whose family had lost their furniture in the war
The Russians can't even get their dead home.0 -
They were already selling their all diesel in Belarus before they invaded...darkhairedlord said:
Some stories in the press about conscripts rocking up in Belarus Street markets selling nicked tat and even their own kit. Its what happens when the defense budget gets blown on yachts, palaces, Mayfair apartments and Mercedes cars.
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nyt reporting survivors in trostyanets saying that the original russian army were 'tolerable', but then they were rotated out and replaced by pro-russian separatists from southeastern ukraine, these were real scumMattFalle said:
i disagree - how do you expect them to get them home?ddraver said:
I don't think so, directly anyway...MattFalle said:.
TBh, the fact that they are all nicking microwaves, washing machines, etc, points to an order that has told them to strip the country of all assets snd destroy what they can't
That's more a case of them not actually having such things at home. I never really put much thought into it when I was in Russia but if you stepped out if the rich CBD zone things went peasant very quickly.
There are modern, flash appartements like those on the banks of the Thames, horrific looking, clearly Soviet era flats and then wooden houses and mud paths.
Guess which part the bulk of the army is probably drawn from...
you turn up at the SQs with a washing machine under your arm and he'll tell you to jog on pretty quick - transporting this stuff takes personnel, space, logistics, time, fuel, money. Stuff the Russians don't have.
"Right - 1053 time lads. Seen when seen. Weapon? Seen. CEFO/CEMO? Seen Dozzer? Seen. Dishwasher? Mate, what ya doing? You were issued a Samsung, that's a Bosch."
You just don't go around nickingshit microwaves and tumbledriers to take home..
And I'd suggest the Army is made up from everywhere - they're not all shitkicking peasants no matter how much some people seem to think they are.
my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny0 -
I would echo this view of Russia. Imagine. Being on the equivalent of the M25 outside Moscow. Horses and carts on the hard shoulder. Old lady smacking her stick on the bonnet of six lanes of traffic as she crosses the raid to get from presumably her field to the blocks of flats on the other side. Went out of the sailing venue to the local shop and some guy is trying to sell me his toothless daughter age not known. Many men hanging out the dinghy park with ak47s where it was or clear what sort of threat we were being protected from. Organiser had to go into the centre of Moscow to bail out the Japanese team who got arrested for taking photos in red square. The place was a basket case in 2005 and this is not even the sticks.ddraver said:
I don't think so, not directly anyway...MattFalle said:.
TBh, the fact that they are all nicking microwaves, washing machines, etc, points to an order that has told them to strip the country of all assets snd destroy what they can't
That's more a case of them not actually having such things at home. I never really put much thought into it when I was in Russia but if you stepped out if the rich CBD zone things went peasant very quickly.
There are modern, flash appartements like those on the banks of the Thames, horrific looking, clearly Soviet era flats and then wooden houses and mud paths.
Guess which part the bulk of the army is probably drawn from...
Edit - terrible source, but this sort of vibe0 -
On the flip side they had wonderful plasterwork ceiling on the underground and some beautiful wooden escalator treads.0
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Do you get ALL your information from watching Borat?john80 said:
I would echo this view of Russia. Imagine. Being on the equivalent of the M25 outside Moscow. Horses and carts on the hard shoulder. Old lady smacking her stick on the bonnet of six lanes of traffic as she crosses the raid to get from presumably her field to the blocks of flats on the other side. Went out of the sailing venue to the local shop and some guy is trying to sell me his toothless daughter age not known. Many men hanging out the dinghy park with ak47s where it was or clear what sort of threat we were being protected from. Organiser had to go into the centre of Moscow to bail out the Japanese team who got arrested for taking photos in red square. The place was a basket case in 2005 and this is not even the sticks.ddraver said:
I don't think so, not directly anyway...MattFalle said:.
TBh, the fact that they are all nicking microwaves, washing machines, etc, points to an order that has told them to strip the country of all assets snd destroy what they can't
That's more a case of them not actually having such things at home. I never really put much thought into it when I was in Russia but if you stepped out if the rich CBD zone things went peasant very quickly.
There are modern, flash appartements like those on the banks of the Thames, horrific looking, clearly Soviet era flats and then wooden houses and mud paths.
Guess which part the bulk of the army is probably drawn from...
Edit - terrible source, but this sort of vibe0 -
tbh, sounds like he was in AlsagerFirst.Aspect said:
Do you get ALL your information from watching Borat?john80 said:
I would echo this view of Russia. Imagine. Being on the equivalent of the M25 outside Moscow. Horses and carts on the hard shoulder. Old lady smacking her stick on the bonnet of six lanes of traffic as she crosses the raid to get from presumably her field to the blocks of flats on the other side. Went out of the sailing venue to the local shop and some guy is trying to sell me his toothless daughter age not known. Many men hanging out the dinghy park with ak47s where it was or clear what sort of threat we were being protected from. Organiser had to go into the centre of Moscow to bail out the Japanese team who got arrested for taking photos in red square. The place was a basket case in 2005 and this is not even the sticks.ddraver said:
I don't think so, not directly anyway...MattFalle said:.
TBh, the fact that they are all nicking microwaves, washing machines, etc, points to an order that has told them to strip the country of all assets snd destroy what they can't
That's more a case of them not actually having such things at home. I never really put much thought into it when I was in Russia but if you stepped out if the rich CBD zone things went peasant very quickly.
There are modern, flash appartements like those on the banks of the Thames, horrific looking, clearly Soviet era flats and then wooden houses and mud paths.
Guess which part the bulk of the army is probably drawn from...
Edit - terrible source, but this sort of vibe.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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