Poo tin... Put@in...
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I would agree with the first sentence but I can not see how you can claim an unbrokn line going back 80 years.rick_chasey said:
Well basically because the Nazis were quite so awful when they invaded there was a sort of *shrug* when the Russian soldiers enacted revenge - at least, that's how i read it.MattFalle said:
"a reckoning about the military's behaviour"rick_chasey said:Yes some horrific stories coming out. Branding (with swastikas), gang rape, systematic murder of fighting-age men...
I guess what I'm driving at with my ill-developed thoughts is that there has never been a reckoning about the military's behaviour since the 1940s.
care to expand?
And since then they haven't really had any public outcry nor was anyone in the army, from top to bottom, held account for their actions - if anything, it was tacitly encouraged.
Since they are the glorified army, there doesn't seem to have been a moment since then where someone in authority stands up and says "this is not the right behaviour", nor does there seem to have been much if any cultural reform in the army to stop this kind of behaviour.
If they are so poorly trained and have such poor discipline that they are killing their own officers it is not likley that the officers can save the civilian population.
This is teh danger of arming the civilian population which blurs the line of who is a combatant.0 -
Plenty of murdered women and children suggests that is an apologists argumentsurrey_commuter said:
I would agree with the first sentence but I can not see how you can claim an unbrokn line going back 80 years.rick_chasey said:
Well basically because the Nazis were quite so awful when they invaded there was a sort of *shrug* when the Russian soldiers enacted revenge - at least, that's how i read it.MattFalle said:
"a reckoning about the military's behaviour"rick_chasey said:Yes some horrific stories coming out. Branding (with swastikas), gang rape, systematic murder of fighting-age men...
I guess what I'm driving at with my ill-developed thoughts is that there has never been a reckoning about the military's behaviour since the 1940s.
care to expand?
And since then they haven't really had any public outcry nor was anyone in the army, from top to bottom, held account for their actions - if anything, it was tacitly encouraged.
Since they are the glorified army, there doesn't seem to have been a moment since then where someone in authority stands up and says "this is not the right behaviour", nor does there seem to have been much if any cultural reform in the army to stop this kind of behaviour.
If they are so poorly trained and have such poor discipline that they are killing their own officers it is not likley that the officers can save the civilian population.
This is teh danger of arming the civilian population which blurs the line of who is a combatant.0 -
what are the chances that the atrocities have been staged as Putin claims? I know he has a habit of denying everything including invading Ukraine so I don't give his word any weight but still the accusations would have to stand up in a court.rick_chasey said:The reports of Russian army behaviour sound remarkably similar to the behaviour documented at the back end of the second world war..
1. is the video footage staged by the Ukrainians ? In the Syrian war we saw quite a lot of staged footage by the white helmets and friends so it is not impossible. We've seen a street with people lying on the ground then mass graves being filled.
2. the victims could have been killed in the general course of the war - by shelling from either side; then posed by the Urkrainians? In the footage there didn't seem to be major trauma. I saw some other footage in Irpin where a family had been killed by a fragmentation grenade and this didn't leave much trace either as the fragments are tiny but deadly
The most probable explanation remains the Russians shooting people, we already saw this on some drone footage where a driver was shot on sight and the Ukrainian army have now recaptured the location where he was shot.
It would be good to get some independent investigators to the scene but the need to bury bodies have probably precluded any proper investigation. The Russian army has form for this kind of thing from the Katyn massacre onwards and they have form for denying everything.BASI Nordic Ski Instructor
Instagramme0 -
exactly as DB said - you weren't being clear hence my question.Dorset_Boy said:Presumably you are specifically talking about the Russian army here Rick? Your previous post certainly didn't make that clear, and this post doesn't really clarify it much either.
problem is that Rick likes to throw around dinner party arguments as if they sre the sole truth based on the lastest book he's read as opposed to actually asking people in the trade or who have had past real life experience of the subject matter.
ambiguity of hyperbole..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Sorry I figured given the current context chat about systematic murdering of civilians in this thread, it was pretty obvious I was talking about the Russians.0
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no, it was wasn't.rick_chasey said:Sorry I figured given the current context chat about systematic murdering of civilians in this thread, it was pretty obvious I was talking about the Russians.
it was your normal ambiguity.
you said there "has never been a reckoning about the military's behaviour"
you've also previously made - on this thread - uneducated, incorrect comments re the British Army in Iraq and Afghan - bands of rogue soldiers going round if I remember rightly.
Then both DB and I picked you up on it.
your statement came across as covering re all militaries..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Hang on, I did say it was the Russians, FFS, now you lot are gaslighting me.
Look upthread ya numpties.0 -
Was my first point on the matter.rick_chasey said:The reports of Russian army behaviour sound remarkably similar to the behaviour documented at the back end of the second world war.
Leaders not really caring about soldier's behaviour when it came to looting, rape and being relaxed about murder.
There seems to be this idea that this is just the cost of war, and there will be no payback as the authoritarian police will follow up behind and tell them all to stop whining about it.
I also read something about the really brutal hazing they do to new (conscripted) recruits that apparently leads to much worse behaviour.
FFS you lot.
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No - i wanted to explain why DB and I posted.
Actually, yes, I did wanted to press the point that you had to specify which military, becsuse you're pretty anti military although having strong views on what they do/should do/shouldn't do/how to do it even though you've never been in snd as far as we know don't know anyone who has or is been in..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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I mean, obviously there is a chance it is staged yes.davidof said:
what are the chances that the atrocities have been staged as Putin claims? I know he has a habit of denying everything including invading Ukraine so I don't give his word any weight but still the accusations would have to stand up in a court.rick_chasey said:The reports of Russian army behaviour sound remarkably similar to the behaviour documented at the back end of the second world war..
1. is the video footage staged by the Ukrainians ? In the Syrian war we saw quite a lot of staged footage by the white helmets and friends so it is not impossible. We've seen a street with people lying on the ground then mass graves being filled.
2. the victims could have been killed in the general course of the war - by shelling from either side; then posed by the Urkrainians? In the footage there didn't seem to be major trauma. I saw some other footage in Irpin where a family had been killed by a fragmentation grenade and this didn't leave much trace either as the fragments are tiny but deadly
The most probable explanation remains the Russians shooting people, we already saw this on some drone footage where a driver was shot on sight and the Ukrainian army have now recaptured the location where he was shot.
It would be good to get some independent investigators to the scene but the need to bury bodies have probably precluded any proper investigation. The Russian army has form for this kind of thing from the Katyn massacre onwards and they have form for denying everything.
Do I think that is likely? FWIW no not really.0 -
I did specify it upthread, as per above.MattFalle said:No - i wanted to explain why DB and I posted.
Actually, yes, I did wanted to press the point that you had to specify which military, becsuse you're pretty anti military although having strong views on what they do/should do/shouldn't do/how to do it even though you've never been in snd as far as we know don't know anyone who has or is been in.
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LOLrick_chasey said:Hang on, I did say it was the Russians, FFS, now you lot are gaslighting me.
Look upthread ya numpties.
Says the guy who has a long history of not looking up threads.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Seen 2 twitter thread on this that I now can't find.
1) Ukrainians are Nazis therefore killing of civilians is necessary to "purify" Ukraine
2) This is what Russian Armies have done since the aptly named Ivar the Terrible. Georgia is the only exception.
Russians can't be Nazis or Facists, they saved the world from Nazis and Facists you see...
(Some echos there)We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Rick, this is the post you were being questionned over. Specifically the second paragraph which makes no mention of which military you were referring to.rick_chasey said:Yes some horrific stories coming out. Branding (with swastikas), gang rape, systematic murder of fighting-age men...
I guess what I'm driving at with my ill-developed thoughts is that there has never been a reckoning about the military's behaviour since the 1940s.2 -
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exactly - thankyou DB.Dorset_Boy said:
Rick, this is the post you were being questionned over. Specifically the second paragraph which makes no mention of which military you were referring to.rick_chasey said:Yes some horrific stories coming out. Branding (with swastikas), gang rape, systematic murder of fighting-age men...
I guess what I'm driving at with my ill-developed thoughts is that there has never been a reckoning about the military's behaviour since the 1940s.
Coupled with prior "rogue bands of troops" comments you can see why clarification is required..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Out of interest Rick, what sort of people do you think make up the Army? We're talking British as I'm not too familiar with the Russians..
The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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I'm with DB on this one. I know what you are saying, Rick, but I did have to re-read it a few times and did think to myself 'does he mean all militaries?' - I was feeling generous, so gave you the benefit of the doubt.0
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Edit - here is a similar, but different oneddraver said:Seen 2 twitter thread on this that I now can't find.
1) Ukrainians are Nazis therefore killing of civilians is necessary to "purify" Ukraine
2) This is what Russian Armies have done since the aptly named Ivar the Terrible. Georgia is the only exception.
Russians can't be Nazis or Facists, they saved the world from Nazis and Facists you see...
(Some echos there)
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Yup.Dorset_Boy said:
Rick, this is the post you were being questionned over. Specifically the second paragraph which makes no mention of which military you were referring to.rick_chasey said:Yes some horrific stories coming out. Branding (with swastikas), gang rape, systematic murder of fighting-age men...
I guess what I'm driving at with my ill-developed thoughts is that there has never been a reckoning about the military's behaviour since the 1940s.
I thought he might have been referring to the decades of atrocities carried out in Africa, since it’s a continent in which he has often expressed an interest.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Must admit I tend to avoid looking at close-ups of the guy to avoid triggering my SPS.imposter2.0 said:
Apart from all the close-ups of him on TV, sitting at his long table, yeah...HilaryAmin said:
Obviously the long table would make it harder for the deception to be spotted.
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Fuck me this is tedious guys- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono2 -
just a blur dude.rick_chasey said:
.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Literally look at the two posts above and also *the thread title*Dorset_Boy said:
Rick, this is the post you were being questionned over. Specifically the second paragraph which makes no mention of which military you were referring to.rick_chasey said:Yes some horrific stories coming out. Branding (with swastikas), gang rape, systematic murder of fighting-age men...
I guess what I'm driving at with my ill-developed thoughts is that there has never been a reckoning about the military's behaviour since the 1940s.
You know what I'm referring to, stop point scoring.0 -
Or the alleged execution of Argentinian conscripts during
SPS?HilaryAmin said:
Must admit I tend to avoid looking at close-ups of the guy to avoid triggering my SPS.imposter2.0 said:
Apart from all the close-ups of him on TV, sitting at his long table, yeah...HilaryAmin said:
Obviously the long table would make it harder for the deception to be spotted..The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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Jesus that thread is brutal.ddraver said:
Edit - here is a similar, but different oneddraver said:Seen 2 twitter thread on this that I now can't find.
1) Ukrainians are Nazis therefore killing of civilians is necessary to "purify" Ukraine
2) This is what Russian Armies have done since the aptly named Ivar the Terrible. Georgia is the only exception.
Russians can't be Nazis or Facists, they saved the world from Nazis and Facists you see...
(Some echos there)
Just saw a photo on twitter of a dead woman's hand - shellac nails etc - properly middle class - clasping a set of keys with a European flag keyring0 -
Mariupol seems a pretty clear cut example of a war crime as there doesn't seem to have been any attempt by the Russians to follow the requirements of international law in respect of warning, allowing humanitarian aid to prevent starvation or avoid indicriminate killing.davidof said:
what are the chances that the atrocities have been staged as Putin claims? I know he has a habit of denying everything including invading Ukraine so I don't give his word any weight but still the accusations would have to stand up in a court.rick_chasey said:The reports of Russian army behaviour sound remarkably similar to the behaviour documented at the back end of the second world war..
1. is the video footage staged by the Ukrainians ? In the Syrian war we saw quite a lot of staged footage by the white helmets and friends so it is not impossible. We've seen a street with people lying on the ground then mass graves being filled.
2. the victims could have been killed in the general course of the war - by shelling from either side; then posed by the Urkrainians? In the footage there didn't seem to be major trauma. I saw some other footage in Irpin where a family had been killed by a fragmentation grenade and this didn't leave much trace either as the fragments are tiny but deadly
The most probable explanation remains the Russians shooting people, we already saw this on some drone footage where a driver was shot on sight and the Ukrainian army have now recaptured the location where he was shot.
It would be good to get some independent investigators to the scene but the need to bury bodies have probably precluded any proper investigation. The Russian army has form for this kind of thing from the Katyn massacre onwards and they have form for denying everything.0 -
Yeah, i'd agree with DD on this. I'd quite happily stake my rep on not having seen this as an SOP or in the PAMS before.ddraver said:I think in general - MF to confirm - enemy combatants don't engage with hands tied behind their back...
.The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
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