Lizzie
Comments
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Not sure Mo Farah was average :
"Farah represented Hounslow at cross-country in the London Youth Games.[24] In 1996, at the age of 13, he entered the English schools cross-country and finished ninth. The following year he won the first of five English school titles.[21] Recognising his talent, athletics philanthropist Eddie Kulukundis paid the legal fees to complete Farah's naturalisation as a British citizen, allowing Farah to travel to competitions without visa issues.[25][26]
Farah's first major title was at 5000 metres at the European Athletics Junior Championship in 2001,[27] the same year that he began training at St Mary's University College, Twickenham. That year, Farah became one of the first two athletes in the newly formed Endurance Performance Centre at St Mary’s. He lived and trained at the College, and took some modules in an access course before becoming a full-time athlete as his career progressed."
I'm pbing at 5k's now and I'm pushing 50. Its not that i'm cheating - just that I hadnt trained as effectively in the past. So I dont think an improvement in the 20's should be a massive eyebrow raiser.
You'd hope he'd be clean just like most of us hope Froome is clean - but there's no smoking gun around for either of them.0 -
Didn't Froome have an underlying condition/illness?
And it doesn't take much work to see Mo's links with suspicious characters and pick holes in his attempts to distance himself.0 -
bobmcstuff wrote:Wallace and Gromit wrote:Re Farah, he was decidely average up to 2009, when he was already 26, by which age, world class athletes have generally shown world class form. He did the European 5k/10k double and went sub 13 minutes for 5k in 2010, which was his first foray into genuine world class form, though even this was a level down from winning world and Olympic titles from 2011 onwards, having relocated to Oregon to train with Salazar in Feb 2011.
To come to prominence so old having been a full international for several years is unusual. The timing of his move to Salazar and then making the progression to world class shortly afterwards given the age factor is certainly eyebrow raising. (Or at least it raise my eyebrows.)
Anyway, Mo seems like a decent guy, and one can't fault his commitment / tactical savvy in races.
Is that more or less suspicious than Froome's "transformation"?
Don't know, but Froome thinks Africa is a great place to train too.
"Froome now returns to the African continent from Europe to train prior to the start of the season. Last year, he was accompanied by Dutchman Wout Poels."
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... ica-2141490 -
Fenix wrote:Not sure Mo Farah was average :
"Farah represented Hounslow at cross-country in the London Youth Games.[24] In 1996, at the age of 13, he entered the English schools cross-country and finished ninth. The following year he won the first of five English school titles.[21] Recognising his talent, athletics philanthropist Eddie Kulukundis paid the legal fees to complete Farah's naturalisation as a British citizen, allowing Farah to travel to competitions without visa issues.[25][26]
Farah's first major title was at 5000 metres at the European Athletics Junior Championship in 2001,[27] the same year that he began training at St Mary's University College, Twickenham. That year, Farah became one of the first two athletes in the newly formed Endurance Performance Centre at St Mary’s. He lived and trained at the College, and took some modules in an access course before becoming a full-time athlete as his career progressed."
I'm pbing at 5k's now and I'm pushing 50. Its not that i'm cheating - just that I hadnt trained as effectively in the past. So I dont think an improvement in the 20's should be a massive eyebrow raiser.
You'd hope he'd be clean just like most of us hope Froome is clean - but there's no smoking gun around for either of them.
He certainly wasn't average, but he suddenly became a world beater, only Kenyans and Ethiopians can do that in middle distance running.0 -
joe2008 wrote:bobmcstuff wrote:Wallace and Gromit wrote:Re Farah, he was decidely average up to 2009, when he was already 26, by which age, world class athletes have generally shown world class form. He did the European 5k/10k double and went sub 13 minutes for 5k in 2010, which was his first foray into genuine world class form, though even this was a level down from winning world and Olympic titles from 2011 onwards, having relocated to Oregon to train with Salazar in Feb 2011.
To come to prominence so old having been a full international for several years is unusual. The timing of his move to Salazar and then making the progression to world class shortly afterwards given the age factor is certainly eyebrow raising. (Or at least it raise my eyebrows.)
Anyway, Mo seems like a decent guy, and one can't fault his commitment / tactical savvy in races.
Is that more or less suspicious than Froome's "transformation"?
Don't know, but Froome thinks Africa is a great place to train too.
"Froome now returns to the African continent from Europe to train prior to the start of the season. Last year, he was accompanied by Dutchman Wout Poels."
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... ica-214149
Do they both eat quorn tho, joe? With all the shocking news you've told me about Farah, that would be the clincher for me0 -
Ah yes, Africa that single, homogeneous place...
RR2 - you're going to make me choke on my quorn soon...0 -
Richmond Racer 2 wrote:
Do they both eat quorn tho, joe? With all the shocking news you've told me about Farah, that would be the clincher for me
What's with the sarcasm?0 -
dish_dash wrote:Ah yes, Africa that single, homogeneous place...
RR2 - you're going to make me choke on my quorn soon...
Next to Asia, isn't it? How did this thread get on to Farah?0 -
davidof wrote:jimmythecuckoo wrote:
So the lovely Pauline is with someone
I know, and imagine, going out with that bloke who used to play David Wicks son in East Enders too!
...and she and I looked great together
0 -
professeur wrote:dish_dash wrote:Ah yes, Africa that single, homogeneous place...
RR2 - you're going to make me choke on my quorn soon...
Next to Asia, isn't it? How did this thread get on to Farah?
He missed 2 out of competition tests too.0 -
Fenix wrote:So I dont think an improvement in the 20's should be a massive eyebrow raiser.
For a Weekend Warrior maybe. But Farah was a fully fledged international in his early-mid 20s, with access to top class facilities and coaching. He will have been training "properly" from a pretty young age. So one has to ask, what would have changed between age 25 and 28? There's not much that can change physically by that age, and improvements due to training are quite small. (Running training is not really that complicated.)
Off the top of my head in UK athletics, our individual middle/long distance running gold medalists in world/Olympics during my lifetime have been: Ovett, Coe, Cram, Holmes, Radcliffe and Farah.
Ovett was #1 in the world aged 21.
Coe was triple world record holder aged 22.
Cram was world champion aged 22.
Holmes didn't start running seriously until age 22 and was a double World medalist age 25.
Radcliffe was junior world champ and serial senior world medallist "near miss" from her early 20s.
The top rowers and cyclists are also very good very young. (Steve Redgrave, Matt Pinsent and Greg Searle were all Olympic champions aged 22 or under).
So in general, if you're going to be exceptional as a senior, you will have shown near exceptional form in your early 20s.0 -
bobmcstuff wrote:Wallace and Gromit wrote:Re Farah, he was decidely average up to 2009, when he was already 26, by which age, world class athletes have generally shown world class form. He did the European 5k/10k double and went sub 13 minutes for 5k in 2010, which was his first foray into genuine world class form, though even this was a level down from winning world and Olympic titles from 2011 onwards, having relocated to Oregon to train with Salazar in Feb 2011.
To come to prominence so old having been a full international for several years is unusual. The timing of his move to Salazar and then making the progression to world class shortly afterwards given the age factor is certainly eyebrow raising. (Or at least it raise my eyebrows.)
Anyway, Mo seems like a decent guy, and one can't fault his commitment / tactical savvy in races.
Is that more or less suspicious than Froome's "transformation"?
Too close to call...
Mo was at least a decent international athlete pre late development but doesn't have anything obviously legit to explain his development to world beater.
Froome went from canon fodder to world beater in about 6 weeks in 2011, but the mystery illness story is at least something to hang onto if you're a "believer".0 -
jimmythecuckoo wrote:davidof wrote:jimmythecuckoo wrote:
So the lovely Pauline is with someone
I know, and imagine, going out with that bloke who used to play David Wicks son in East Enders too!
...and she and I looked great together
My broken DD & PFP 4 EVAH Heart is the main thing I have taken from this I admit...We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
smithy21 wrote:professeur wrote:dish_dash wrote:Ah yes, Africa that single, homogeneous place...
RR2 - you're going to make me choke on my quorn soon...
Next to Asia, isn't it? How did this thread get on to Farah?
He missed 2 out of competition tests too.
Ah, yes - thanks!0 -
RoadPainter wrote:Richmond Racer 2 wrote:joe2008 wrote:Richmond Racer 2 wrote:joe2008 wrote:Pinno wrote:The sceptics are perfectly organised and never miss a pill, appointment, bus or putting the bin out. Sanctimonious.
'She misses a test and then goes and wins her next race'! So she should have deliberately thrown it so as not to appear suspicious?
Lizzie has never tested positive. Will it take another 40+ victories and 75 blood tests before she has a clean reputation?
I'm sure from this point forward, she will be more diligent but for now, she remains human.
But, the point is it's not a pill, appointment, bus or bin, it's something that her whole career depends on, I reckon you'd be pretty diligent about that.
Like Mo now, forever tainted.
Hang on a Mo. Tell me more about 'Tainted Mo'
Seriously, you believe he's clean; his association with Alberto Salazar and Galen Rupp, plus training camps in Kenya... really.
Oh my word, this sounds perfectly dreadful. Can you tell me more? I will certainly make sure not to cheer for Mo in any way shape or form.
There was quite a lot in mainstream media about this last year, somehow nothing came of it (apart from Mo pulling out of a race in Brum)
Only to be expected really, every sportsperson Nike attach themselves to seems to turn out a wrong'un.
Got to say I would be extremely surprised if Mo was clean with everything that's been reported.0 -
That's not actually true though is it.Wallace and Gromit wrote:Froome went from canon fodder to world beater in about 6 weeks in 2011, but the mystery illness story is at least something to hang onto if you're a "believer".
In reality he went from a raw talent in 2007, to being tipped as Britain's future GC contender in 2008, via a team collapse, knee injury and illness, getting proper one to one coaching for the first time and steadily improving performances to coming second to Cobo (no-one's idea of a world beater himself). This 'World Beater' didn't actually win a stage race for another year and a half.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Wallace and Gromit wrote:bobmcstuff wrote:Wallace and Gromit wrote:Re Farah, he was decidely average up to 2009, when he was already 26, by which age, world class athletes have generally shown world class form. He did the European 5k/10k double and went sub 13 minutes for 5k in 2010, which was his first foray into genuine world class form, though even this was a level down from winning world and Olympic titles from 2011 onwards, having relocated to Oregon to train with Salazar in Feb 2011.
To come to prominence so old having been a full international for several years is unusual. The timing of his move to Salazar and then making the progression to world class shortly afterwards given the age factor is certainly eyebrow raising. (Or at least it raise my eyebrows.)
Anyway, Mo seems like a decent guy, and one can't fault his commitment / tactical savvy in races.
Is that more or less suspicious than Froome's "transformation"?
Too close to call...
Mo was at least a decent international athlete pre late development but doesn't have anything obviously legit to explain his development to world beater.
Froome went from canon fodder to world beater in about 6 weeks in 2011, but the mystery illness story is at least something to hang onto if you're a "believer".
Hmm, he'd put in some reasonable performances before then, but admittedly with wild inconsistency (and lots of crashing). http://inrng.com/2011/08/chris-froome-vuelta-leader/ .
He also seems to have a less conventional route into the sport compared to Mo - Mo had been involved from a young age whereas Froome came to the pro scene and training etc. much later.
Anyway that has all been discussed in much more detail elsewhere, I was just trying to get a response from our "everyone is doping" friends...0 -
Cards on the table - I'm a huge Mo fan. Athletics is my #1 sport.
It all goes back to proving a negative. With only the evidence of tests successfully passed (and we all know a certain LA who used that argument), there is little Farah can do to prove he is clean. Though some of the theories don't really stand up to scrutiny:-
- late developer? Well, given his early track record and then failure to capitalise on it in his early pro years simply indicates he hadn't found the training approach to get the most out of himself. If the logic of that argument is followed, moving to Salazar as a coach should have had zero impact. That it did have an impact doesn't show anything other than whatever he is doing today (with Salazar - legal or illegal, and I think legal) works and maximises his potential.
- beating all the East Africans? You can raise a sceptical eyebrow at the East Africans he is nowhere near as fast as instead surely? 5000m WR is 12:37, Mo's PB is 12:53. Miles off. He wouldn't beat Kenenisa Bekele in his prime. He is beating who is on the track today, at paces which Bekele would destroy. Does that mean Bekele was a doper? Or just supremely talented? Who knows.
- Salazar connection? Mud sticks, and its easy to throw it today. Most of the documentary which threw out allegations against Salazar were comprehensively rebutted. But fewer people pay attention to that than to the sensationalist headlines. You don't think that USADA would be all over Salazar like a rash if there was anything to investigate? But again, we won't know the outcome of a negative investigation, as that's not how drug testing regimes work, partly because of the "mud sticks" argument.
At the end of the day, Mo is a championship racer. He wins most of his races by fractions of a second. Whilst he is consistently the man that has that fraction of a second edge, and that makes him dominant, he isn't dominant in the same way that Tergat, Bekele, Haile etc were in their days. Simply all out faster, by some margin, than their competitors.
He's criticised for not running world record attempts etc. I suspect that's simply because he isn't capable of them. He's gifted as someone with great endurance combined with exceptional speed endurance. He is ranked in the top 10 all time for 1500m, but wins medals at 5000 and 10000 with PBs way outside of the top 10 all time at those distances.
Have faith that he is clean - the world seems a much nicer place that way!2015 Canyon Nerve AL 6.0 (son #1's)
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bobmcstuff wrote:Hmm, he'd put in some reasonable performances before then, but admittedly with wild inconsistency (and lots of crashing). http://inrng.com/2011/08/chris-froome-vuelta-leader/
Maybe I'm being harsh, but decent/reasonable performances in your early/mid 20s are quite hard to convert to GT winning efforts in your mid/late 20s unless you've really been training badly.
If you've got the basic physiological material, you can get very close to your maximum potential off relatively unsophisticated training. Froome was racing as a pro from 2007 IIRC, and would have done a lot of high quality miles between 2007-2011. (I know some teams were a bit unsophisticated, but riding 30k kilometers per year including racing is going to tap into at least the mid 90s percent of what you're capable of.) So some prominent showings in one week stage races should surely have resulted from three or four years of even unsophisticated training of what must be - if he is legit - phenomenal physiology.
To achieve what Froome did pre 2011 based on such physiology would require actively going out of your way to train badly (or to be constantly slightly ill).
I can accept that it might take Sky's attention to detail to convert such performances into winning short stage races and to being competitive at longer stage races.0 -
larkim wrote:Have faith that he is clean - the world seems a much nicer place that way!
A good plan!
I should emphasise that I'm not particularly bothered about doping. What I don't like is a lack of commitment and neither Froome nor Farah (nor Lizzie) could be accused of lacking commitment.0 -
larkim wrote:He is ranked in the top 10 all time for 1500m
You don't find that a touch suspicious given that he now has a really refined training programme for 5km and 10km?0 -
Yet it's the topic you post about the most.Wallace and Gromit wrote:I should emphasise that I'm not particularly bothered about doping.Twitter: @RichN950 -
TheBigBean wrote:larkim wrote:He is ranked in the top 10 all time for 1500m
You don't find that a touch suspicious given that he now has a really refined training programme for 5km and 10km?
It's certainly unusual. But he runs the 1500m at a time when he is working on speed in his build up to 5000 or 10000 champs, so he is speed optimised at that point. Plus the top 10 list for 5 and 10 may well be well populated by EPO / blood doping performances as they were often put down before the tests / passports etc were in place (with a notable exception being one race in Paris in 2012). Though if I'm being true to my principles I have to accept than in the absence of a failed test, the results stand.
e.g. for 5000m1 12:37.35 Kenenisa BEKELE 13 JUN 1982 ETH 1 Hengelo (Blankers-Koen Stadion) 31 MAY 2004 2 12:39.36 Haile GEBRSELASSIE 18 APR 1973 ETH 1 Helsinki 13 JUN 1998 3 12:39.74 Daniel KOMEN 17 MAY 1976 KEN 1 Bruxelles 22 AUG 1997 4 12:46.53 Eliud KIPCHOGE 5 NOV 1984 KEN 1 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 02 JUL 2004 5 12:46.81 Dejen GEBREMESKEL 24 NOV 1989 ETH 1 Paris Saint-Denis (Stade de France) 06 JUL 2012 6 12:47.04 Sileshi SIHINE 9 MAY 1983 ETH 2 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 02 JUL 2004 7 12:47.53 Hagos GEBRHIWET 11 MAY 1994 ETH 2 Paris Saint-Denis (Stade de France) 06 JUL 2012 8 12:48.64 Isiah Kiplangat KOECH 19 DEC 1993 KEN 3 Paris Saint-Denis (Stade de France) 06 JUL 2012 9 12:48.66 Isaac Kiprono SONGOK 25 APR 1984 KEN 2 Zürich 18 AUG 2006 10 12:48.77 Yenew ALAMIREW 27 MAY 1990 ETH 4 Paris Saint-Denis (Stade de France) 06 JUL 2012 11 12:48.81 Saif Saaeed SHAHEEN 15 OCT 1982 QAT 1 Ostrava 12 JUN 2003 12 12:49.04 Thomas Pkemei LONGOSIWA 14 JAN 1982 KEN 5 Paris Saint-Denis (Stade de France) 06 JUL 2012 13 12:49.28 Brahim LAHLAFI 15 APR 1968 FRA 1 Bruxelles 25 AUG 2000 14 12:49.50 John Chepkwony KIPKOECH 29 DEC 1991 KEN 6 Paris Saint-Denis (Stade de France) 06 JUL 2012 15 12:49.71 Mohammed MOURHIT 10 OCT 1970 BEL 2 Bruxelles 25 AUG 2000 16 12:49.87 Paul TERGAT 17 JUN 1969 KEN 3 Zürich 13 AUG 1997 17 12:50.24 Hicham EL GUERROUJ 14 SEP 1974 MAR 2 Ostrava 12 JUN 2003 18 12:50.25 Abderrahim GOUMRI 21 MAY 1976 MAR 2 Bruxelles (Boudewijnstadion) 26 AUG 2005 19 12:50.55 Moses Ndiema MASAI 1 JUN 1986 KEN 1 Berlin (Olympiastadion) 01 JUN 2008 20 12:50.72 Moses Ndiema KIPSIRO 2 SEP 1986 UGA 3 Bruxelles (Boudewijnstadion) 14 SEP 2007 21 12:50.80 Salah HISSOU 16 JAN 1972 MAR 1 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 05 JUN 1996 22 12:50.86 Ali SAÏDI-SIEF 15 MAR 1978 ALG 1 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 30 JUN 2000 23 12:51.00 Joseph EBUYA 20 JUN 1987 KEN 4 Bruxelles (Boudewijnstadion) 14 SEP 2007 24 12:51.34 Edwin Cheruiyot SOI 3 MAR 1986 KEN 1 Monaco (Stade Louis II) 19 JUL 2013 25 12:51.45 Vincent Kiprop CHEPKOK 5 JUL 1988 KEN 2 Doha (Hamad Bin Suhaim) 14 MAY 2010 26 12:51.96 Albert Kibichii ROP 17 JUL 1992 BRN 2 Monaco (Stade Louis II) 19 JUL 2013 27 12:52.33 Sammy Kipketer CHERUIYOT 29 SEP 1981 KEN 2 Oslo 27 JUN 2003 28 12:52.45 Tariku BEKELE 28 FEB 1987 ETH 2 Berlin (Olympiastadion) 01 JUN 2008 29 12:52.80 Gebregziabher GEBREMARIAM 12 OCT 1984 ETH 3 Roma (Stadio Olimpico) 08 JUL 2005 30 12:52.99 Abraham CHEBII 23 DEC 1979 KEN 4 Oslo 27 JUN 2003 31 12:53.11 Mohamed FARAH 23 MAR 1983 GBR 1 Monaco (Stade Louis II) 22 JUL 2011
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No because he trains to win championships at 5000m/10000m not run times. And that requires being the fastest over the last couple of laps. However, his last lap time isn't fast enough to win medals at 1500m.TheBigBean wrote:larkim wrote:He is ranked in the top 10 all time for 1500m
You don't find that a touch suspicious given that he now has a really refined training programme for 5km and 10km?Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
Yet it's the topic you post about the most.Wallace and Gromit wrote:I should emphasise that I'm not particularly bothered about doping.
Sorry for not being clear - I'm not bothered whether folk dope or not. The subject of doping (procedures, excuses, reactions etc.) clearly fascinates me.0 -
RichN95 wrote:
No because he trains to win championships at 5000m/10000m not run times. And that requires being the fastest over the last couple of laps. However, his last lap time isn't fast enough to win medals at 1500m.TheBigBean wrote:larkim wrote:He is ranked in the top 10 all time for 1500m
You don't find that a touch suspicious given that he now has a really refined training programme for 5km and 10km?
Agreed. If someone comes along in the 5k / 10k who can sustain the pace in the mid sections long enough to put Mo into difficulty then his sprint will be nullified. (Akin to what folk tried on Steve Ovett but never succeeded until Coe/Straub and then Cram did they job.)
Ironically, the last lap in the major championship 5k can be faster than at 1500m which in turn is faster than in the 800m. (Seb Coe said the 800m is about who slows down least not who can sprint best.) Yet in further irony, put a top class 1500m running in a slow 5000m race and the winner is most likely the 1500m runner. Hicham El Guerrouj somehow persuaded the field in the 2004 Olympic 5k final to run "slowly" (13:14 - relative term!) until 200m to go and won easily easing up in the final 10m.0 -
There are more complications in bike racing though which make it difficult to judge how much faster a rider has got. Was he getting team support back then, what were his bunch skills like, was he riding for himself or someone else, was his race programme focussed on what was best for him or his team, how long had gphe been racing at the top level, was he doing much specific TT training and did he have the best TT kit, wind tunnel time etc?
If we are talking about transformations late in his career you'd have to say the same of Wiggins. If both Wiggins and Froome are suspicious then Sky and by implication BC are suspect. Could Froome dope without the knowledge of at least some of the senior Sky staff? I think it's the wider implications that lead most to conclude he is clean.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
You should check out this place then: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewforum.php?f=20Wallace and Gromit wrote:RichN95 wrote:
Yet it's the topic you post about the most.Wallace and Gromit wrote:I should emphasise that I'm not particularly bothered about doping.
Sorry for not being clear - I'm not bothered whether folk dope or not. The subject of doping (procedures, excuses, reactions etc.) clearly fascinates me.0 -
He'a not only aware of it, I think he used to be a moderator. (Suggesting a rider might be clean gets you a ban for trolling)Paul 8v wrote:
You should check out this place then: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewforum.php?f=20Wallace and Gromit wrote:RichN95 wrote:
Yet it's the topic you post about the most.Wallace and Gromit wrote:I should emphasise that I'm not particularly bothered about doping.
Sorry for not being clear - I'm not bothered whether folk dope or not. The subject of doping (procedures, excuses, reactions etc.) clearly fascinates me.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Haha, I love looking on there, it's insane.RichN95 wrote:
He'a not only aware of it, I think he used to be a moderator. (Suggesting a rider might be clean gets you a ban for trolling)Paul 8v wrote:
You should check out this place then: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewforum.php?f=20Wallace and Gromit wrote:RichN95 wrote:
Yet it's the topic you post about the most.Wallace and Gromit wrote:I should emphasise that I'm not particularly bothered about doping.
Sorry for not being clear - I'm not bothered whether folk dope or not. The subject of doping (procedures, excuses, reactions etc.) clearly fascinates me.
They basically state in one thread, as an absolute fact that Froome, Evans, Nibali and Lemond are all dopers and they can't understand why people worship them and not Floyd Landis
Wiggo is definitely not legit as he has a "high cadence"
Is it all some tongue in cheek joke or are they actually lunatics?0
