Nairo can't roll and is massively over rated, discuss..

tim000

Pinno wrote:

dennisn wrote:

hypster wrote:

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

He's got to have the best average finishing position in the Tour, no?

No doubt Quintana is good and he certainly doesn't have the SKY train in front of him but will he win a TdF?

er , yes he did

mr_poll

Columbia's cycling coach says Nairo has a mystery illness and will miss the Olympics

http://www.supersport.com/cycling/international/news/160724/Ill_Quintana_to_miss_Rio_Olympics

hypster

mr_poll wrote:

Columbia's cycling coach says Nairo has a mystery illness and will miss the Olympics

http://www.supersport.com/cycling/international/news/160724/Ill_Quintana_to_miss_Rio_Olympics

The only mystery is how he managed to finish on the podium. Then again following Froome all the way round France he must have picked up a few tips.

gsk82

If Froome had been as limp as Quintana we'd have had three weeks of been told its because of the new EPO and night time testing.

joelsim

gsk82 wrote:

If Froome had been as limp as Quintana we'd have had three weeks of been told its because of the new EPO and night time testing.

Yep.

If Froome had performed like Aru yesterday then it would've been a bad BB.

(Which it probably was in Aru's case).

dennisn

hypster wrote:

mr_poll wrote:

Columbia's cycling coach says Nairo has a mystery illness and will miss the Olympics

http://www.supersport.com/cycling/international/news/160724/Ill_Quintana_to_miss_Rio_Olympics

The only mystery is how he managed to finish on the podium. Then again following Froome all the way round France he must have picked up a few tips.

Anyone in the race could have "followed" Froome around France but they didn't or couldn't, so your criticism of Nairo has no basis.

squired

I do wonder whether part of the issue is Movistar indulging Quintana and letting him spend large periods of time in Colombia. Is he spending that time training alone, or is he being supported by team staff?

If he has a "mystery illness" it can't be that bad if he still finishes 3rd in the race.

One must ask though (and I'm not putting sole focus on Quintana here) who was mysteriously below par in a race where additional testing for microdosing was implemented. Surprisingly, for example, Valverde was still good, even after the Giro. On the other hand a few of the alleged big guns completely collapsed (TJ, Aru, Pinot) and the man who took his training into the 21st century this season was worse than ever (Rolland).

bobmcstuff

To be fair to Rolland he had a decent first week followed by crashes in Stage 8 and Stage 19, it's not necessarily that he didn't have the form.

Vaughters was saying on Cycling Podcast that his resilience has been really impressive - went into the break on Stage 20 after that big crash on 19.

hypster

One of the things I thought was telling was Quintana's performance in the second TT. He actually finished 10th, ahead of Valverde and several other notables. I thought this performance wasn't too bad and actually took it as a sign that maybe he was getting a bit stronger and that in the next couple of days he might launch some sort of attack.

As it tuned out this wasn't the case and he only managed to take 10 seconds out of Froome after his crash and completing the stage on GT's bike. I thought stage 20 was highly predictable and no-one was really going to risk chucking it all away on that final tricky desecent given the weather conditions. Maybe a desecender like Bardet might have gone for it in the dry but I guess he would have settled for second place at the start of the Tour.

Maybe Quintana and Movistar will be able to learn something from this Tour and come back next year with better preparation and form. Like Sky they need to be a bit more single-minded about their preparation and their aims for the Tour to mount a serious challenge. I guess we'll also see whether the course the organisers set will favour Quintana the climber but so far he hasn't managed to really best Froome in that area over recent Tours either.

Personally, in terms of the various abilities you need to be a Tour winner i.e. riding the flat with winds, time trialling, climbing and descending, I can't really see Quintana ever mounting a serious challenge to Froome. Even if Froome was out of the race, I'm sure someone else like Nibali would probably step up to beat him so I really can't see him ever winning the Tour.

With that in mind, maybe Movistar need to have a good look at their strategy for winning the TdF and get in a new team leader with whom the whole team can get behind a la Sky.

Jez mon

Guy who has finished a very strong second at the tour twice, and turns up out of form (for whatever reason) and still manages to finish third.

He's also won the Giro...

And now, at the grand age of 26, we're writing him off..

timoid.

squired wrote:

One must ask though (and I'm not putting sole focus on Quintana here) who was mysteriously below par in a race where additional testing for microdosing was implemented. Surprisingly, for example, Valverde was still good, even after the Giro. On the other hand a few of the alleged big guns completely collapsed (TJ, Aru, Pinot) and the man who took his training into the 21st century this season was worse than ever (Rolland).

I've said it before, but I honestly think a non-doped Valverde is an incredible talent. He's always on for the whole season. He doesn't do mystery training and is just consistent.

And I'm an utter cynic.

m.r.m.

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Pinno wrote:

2 2nd places in the TdF and a Giro win.
<snip>
(As in another thread) Only Sastre, Pantani, Zoetemelk(?) and Delgado have won the TdF since 1980 as pure climbers.

I'm not sure that there is such a thing as a pure climber any more - if you have the power to climb mountains they can generally get you in the wind tunnel and get a decent TT out of you. There are some second tier climbers who climb well but can't TT but generally they haven't put the time in to get good at that because their climbing isn't quite good enough for GC anyway.

I just think Quintana isn't on the form he promised to be on with his previous results - whether his training has been sup-optimal or he's been carrying a virus or he is just one of those riders that peaks early in their career maybe time will tell.

What about Purito?

Timoid. wrote:

I've said it before, but I honestly think a non-doped Valverde is an incredible talent. He's always on for the whole season. He doesn't do mystery training and is just consistent.

And I'm an utter cynic.

My problem with Valverde is, that he always seems to play it safe. He seems content with not risking anything ever and getting a podium spot (often even in one day races), instead of being willing to lose it in order to win it. The opposite of Sagan basically.

In some ways he is the anti-Gilbert. Gilbert is always willing to take a flyer and see if he can make it stick. 5-6 years ago he was good enough to make it stick and win prodigiously that way. He isn't anymore. Valverde often looks like he will take whatever falls into his lap due to his incredible talent, but never take a real shot against the odds.

slowbike

Jez mon wrote:

Guy who has finished a very strong second at the tour twice, and turns up out of form (for whatever reason) and still manages to finish third.

He's also won the Giro...

And now, at the grand age of 26, we're writing him off..

Whatever way Nairo felt during the tour - or rather whatever way he said he felt during the tour - he didn't manage to sustain any attacks that we expected of him - is that because he is off-form or because the others are far better at covering his attacks - I don't know - but I felt it was Yates who lost his podium rather than Quintana who gained it.
Mollema also lost his - but at least Bardet earnt his with that massive successful attack.

Look at the top 5 - who got their place through attacks and who got there through others misfortune?

dennisn

Slowbike wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

Guy who has finished a very strong second at the tour twice, and turns up out of form (for whatever reason) and still manages to finish third.

He's also won the Giro...

And now, at the grand age of 26, we're writing him off..

he didn't manage to sustain any attacks that we expected of him

Look at the top 5 - who got their place through attacks and who got there through others misfortune?

The whole race is about attacks, misfortune, things going your way, things not going your way, good luck, bad luck, etc., etc. All that matters is winning or placing highly. Whether it's done with attacks or a bit of luck(good or bad) doesn't matter.

Also don't presume to include everyone in your "....we expected...".

slowbike

dennisn wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

Guy who has finished a very strong second at the tour twice, and turns up out of form (for whatever reason) and still manages to finish third.

He's also won the Giro...

And now, at the grand age of 26, we're writing him off..

he didn't manage to sustain any attacks that we expected of him

Look at the top 5 - who got their place through attacks and who got there through others misfortune?

The whole race is about attacks, misfortune, things going your way, things not going your way, good luck, bad luck, etc., etc. All that matters is winning or placing highly. Whether it's done with attacks or a bit of luck(good or bad) doesn't matter.

Also don't presume to include everyone in your "....we expected...".

Did I presume? where did you read that I presumed anything?!

Point still stands - a lot was expected in terms of attacks from this rider and we saw very little.
We did see Froome do that massive downhill attack that gained him the yellow.
We saw Bardet fly off to jump up the placings to get his second
We saw Yates go off only to get knocked down by the 1Km banner
Porte gained fistfulls of time after his first mishap (although perhaps he wouldn't have been allowed to go if he'd been further up the ranks)

That leaves Quintana ... who seemed to have an off day after off day - ok overall he had little enough off days to get 3rd place, but I dunno ... something missing ...

hypster

dennisn wrote:

The whole race is about attacks, misfortune, things going your way, things not going your way, good luck, bad luck, etc., etc. All that matters is winning or placing highly. Whether it's done with attacks or a bit of luck(good or bad) doesn't matter.

Also don't presume to include everyone in your "....we expected...".

What are you saying then dennis, you didn't expect Quintana to attack? Amazing foresight because you got it spot-on.

dennisn

hypster wrote:

dennisn wrote:

The whole race is about attacks, misfortune, things going your way, things not going your way, good luck, bad luck, etc., etc. All that matters is winning or placing highly. Whether it's done with attacks or a bit of luck(good or bad) doesn't matter.

Also don't presume to include everyone in your "....we expected...".

What are you saying then dennis, you didn't expect Quintana to attack? Amazing foresight because you got it spot-on.

Thanx.

andyp

squired wrote:

I do wonder whether part of the issue is Movistar indulging Quintana and letting him spend large periods of time in Colombia. Is he spending that time training alone, or is he being supported by team staff?

There's an undercurrent of racism to this, no? No-one questions Alex Dowsett spending large periods of time in Essex, because it's his home, yet this accusation that Quintana is indulged by Movistar, because he lives in the country he comes from is thrown around with abandon.

above_the_cows

andyp wrote:

squired wrote:

I do wonder whether part of the issue is Movistar indulging Quintana and letting him spend large periods of time in Colombia. Is he spending that time training alone, or is he being supported by team staff?

There's an undercurrent of racism to this, no? No-one questions Alex Dowsett spending large periods of time in Essex, because it's his home, yet this accusation that Quintana is indulged by Movistar, because he lives in the country he comes from is thrown around with abandon.

I'm not sure it is racism, although I can see what you mean. But I thought the deal with him spending so much time in Colombia is that it actually isn't good training wise to spend *that much* time at altitude as it dents the explosiveness.

ddraver

That, the sad boring reality is that to win the tour you need to spend months training in the best place in the world to train. Which appears to be on ones own, away from any distractions on a sad boring pile of rocks in the East Atlantic rather than Columbia...

above_the_cows

ddraver wrote:

That, the sad boring reality is that to win the tour you need to spend months training in the best place in the world to train. Which appears to be on ones own, away from any distractions on a sad boring pile of rocks in the East Atlantic rather than Columbia...

Boring pile of rocks?

Richmond Racer 2

ddraver wrote:

That, the sad boring reality is that to win the tour you need to spend months training in the best place in the world to train. Which appears to be on ones own, away from any distractions on a sad boring pile of rocks in the East Atlantic rather than Columbia...

Eh?

No_Ta_Doctor

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

ddraver wrote:

That, the sad boring reality is that to win the tour you need to spend months training in the best place in the world to train. Which appears to be on ones own, away from any distractions on a sad boring pile of rocks in the East Atlantic rather than Columbia...

Eh?

I'm similarly bemused. I can't imagine how a pile of rocks could be boring to a geologist, whether they're in the East or West Atlantic. It's a VOLCANO!

above_the_cows

Get a load of this pile of rocks!

Lanterne_Rogue

Above The Cows wrote:

Well there's the chuffing problem right there. Froome's been practising descending in the wet like a good boy, but he's forgotten his chuffing bike.

pinno

Was ddraver trying to say that to train for the TdF you need to be away from all distractions just plugging away at it?
Oh hang on...

(I can't save your 4rse dd, soz mate)

above_the_cows

underlayunderlay wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

Well there's the chuffing problem right there. Froome's been practising descending in the wet like a good boy, but he's forgotten his chuffing bike.

I think they should add the giant lizards to the Tour. That would surely liven things up for those looking to be entertained.

blazing_saddles

Above The Cows wrote:

Get a load of this pile of rocks!

Those rock are Tidy. :P

above_the_cows

pinno

Not meaning to sound pedantic but I don't see a road up that thing.