Nairo can't roll and is massively over rated, discuss..

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  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,645
    It's pretty obvious Quintana isn't 100% this year. Last year he wasn't quite ready at the start but put Froome under pressure in week 3. I think he needs a Kerrison type coach to get him to the start of the race at 95% peak form so that he stays close enough to make a third week challenge count. I can't believe how quickly people write riders off.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    Above The Cows wrote:
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    Richmond Racer 2 wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    Think I agree with everyone else, not overrated but needs to learn to take the race by the scruff of the throat more often and how to stop leaking time on non-mountain stages.

    I hope it never happens but one person he could really benefit from is Vino at Astana... :shock:



    Oh man, you've changed. I'll mirror you & say he could probably do with Riis...

    Yeh Riis is a good call. Like them or loathe them, you have to grudgingly accept that Astana hae won the last 2 GTs with well thought out, attacking, aggressive tactics which we re pulled off perfectly...

    Waiting for Kruijswijk to hit a snow bank and fall off was part of their master plan?

    It's Vino we're talking about. He got the Kazakh army to build the snow bank.

    It's Astana time now, stages 18-20, also known as Tooth-Fairy Time.

    Quintana is a very good rider, but so far against Froome he has performed exceptionally a couple of times in pretty much the final stage. Last year Froome was also carrying an illness.

    But with his talent, Nairo shouldn't be losing stages like today to Mollema and Meintjes.
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,187
    itboffin wrote:
    I agree Yates is outstanding.

    Perhaps Nario should focus on races like TDP because he's no when near the level to be GC for the tour, as for tactics it seems like only sky has a plan everyone else just looks like they're looking for mistakes and failures.

    I'm not a froome fan but you have to hand it to him and sky they're bossing this tour

    Bit harsh. Froome is on another level, but he's still a threat to everyone else.
  • dougzz
    dougzz Posts: 1,833
    hypster wrote:
    Yates' by contrast has been much more visible and it has all been off his own bat. The weird thing is everyone goes on about Team Sky and all the support that Froome gets but Yates is up there basically on his own. I know if Froome really was isolated (as he has been in past Tours) he could probably do it unsupported but it makes you wonder how much difference having a strong team really makes. Where would Yates be if he was the leader of a team like Astana say?
    But the thing about Yates being all on his own doesn't matter. If you're basically going to just follow the Sky train why do you need a team? You only need the team to try something that gains you time. If you're sitting on playing it conservative the team doesn't matter, in that respect Sky ride for them all. I'm not criticising Yates, just saying the team would be irrelevant anyway, other than a wheel or bike in the event of a mech and no car, which I don't think has happened to him. Now Porte previously certainly could have used a team mate prepared to offer a wheel or bike. Unless you intend to dictate how the stage is ridden the team is not as important. All of the GC hopefuls are basically riding to Sky's terms. If you look at yesterday's stage towards the end when the GC guys made moves, it was essentially the strongest individuals anyway.
  • dougzz
    dougzz Posts: 1,833
    Mad_Malx wrote:
    itboffin wrote:
    I agree Yates is outstanding.
    Perhaps Nario should focus on races like TDP because he's no when near the level to be GC for the tour, as for tactics it seems like only sky has a plan everyone else just looks like they're looking for mistakes and failures.
    I'm not a froome fan but you have to hand it to him and sky they're bossing this tour
    Bit harsh. Froome is on another level, but he's still a threat to everyone else.
    Very harsh, but who would have imagined before the Tour Nairo unable to hold Yates's wheel in the 3rd week?
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    dougzz wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    Yates' by contrast has been much more visible and it has all been off his own bat. The weird thing is everyone goes on about Team Sky and all the support that Froome gets but Yates is up there basically on his own. I know if Froome really was isolated (as he has been in past Tours) he could probably do it unsupported but it makes you wonder how much difference having a strong team really makes. Where would Yates be if he was the leader of a team like Astana say?
    But the thing about Yates being all on his own doesn't matter. If you're basically going to just follow the Sky train why do you need a team? You only need the team to try something that gains you time. If you're sitting on playing it conservative the team doesn't matter, in that respect Sky ride for them all. I'm not criticising Yates, just saying the team would be irrelevant anyway, other than a wheel or bike in the event of a mech and no car, which I don't think has happened to him. Now Porte previously certainly could have used a team mate prepared to offer a wheel or bike. Unless you intend to dictate how the stage is ridden the team is not as important. All of the GC hopefuls are basically riding to Sky's terms. If you look at yesterday's stage towards the end when the GC guys made moves, it was essentially the strongest individuals anyway.

    Exactly the point I was trying to make but maybe explained myself badly. If you are the strongest rider in the field you don't necessarily need a team to pull you along. There is obviously a lot more to the tactics and strategy than that over a whole Tour otherwise there wouldn't be any teams but we have seen several instances in this Tour particularly, where a team is not always necessary i.e. Cav, Sagan and Yates.
  • dougzz
    dougzz Posts: 1,833
    hypster wrote:
    Exactly the point I was trying to make but maybe explained myself badly. If you are the strongest rider in the field you don't necessarily need a team to pull you along. There is obviously a lot more to the tactics and strategy than that over a whole Tour otherwise there wouldn't be any teams but we have seen several instances in this Tour particularly, where a team is not always necessary i.e. Cav, Sagan and Yates.
    Yeah, I think I missed your point when I read it again. The effect of teams if hard to gauge. In the case of Cav can you imagine what a sprint might look like if they all wheel surfed each other with no proper sprint trains. That probably would be mayhem in the last few hundred metres. Cav and Yates I suppose benefit from the teams of people trying similar things, but Sagan is just amazing, he really does do it all himself, or with the odd short term alliance.
  • professeur
    professeur Posts: 232
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    I'm going to disagree with a couple of comments about Valverde not working for Quintana. Just in this race rather than previously I can't see what more Valverde could have done - he's been there with him as last man, he's put in a couple of softening up attacks, didn't he also go off with Contador (or was that someone else) which would have put pressure on Sky had Contador had legs, he was also there when Quintana got dropped on Ventoux wasn't he ? Short of pushing him up the climbs I'm not sure that Valverde could do much more. Whether he'd blow himself up riding on the front like a Sky domestique is hypothetical because there hasn't been a situation where that would benefit the team.

    Good analysis, and backed further by Valverde's effort yesterday. In retrospect, he's looked strong, certainly stronger than Quintana, and has potentially sacrificed a podium spot.
  • argyllflyer
    argyllflyer Posts: 893
    Surely the effect of Sky in mountain stages is keeping a pace up that prevents attacking?

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/07/ ... ork_415421

    Effectively it's like the keirin durny but uphill!

    Beyond deciding when to do it, it is of no real consquence therefore which team does it if everyone else just tags on the back for as long as they can. If Astana did it, it would benefit Froome, as it would if BMC did etc... however at this Tour, it's only Sky that have the manpower to make it count.
  • type:epyt
    type:epyt Posts: 766
    Armstrong used to say re. the ONCE team of Beloki et al ... Follow the attacker and your rival has to follow, putting in the same effort you are ... Given that Armstrong had to have a tactic to follow says all you need to know ...
    Life is unfair, kill yourself or get over it.
  • itboffin
    itboffin Posts: 20,072
    Seems Nairo team agree with me he's just not in GC form this year, it happens that's cycling they said today.
    Rule #5 // Harden The Feck Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,734
    Tomorrow we will see Movistar sending riders up the road in the break.
    Not as stepping stones for Quintana, but to try and log a time for the team classification.

    Le Tour is a strange beast.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,264
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    Tomorrow we will see Movistar sending riders up the road in the break.
    Not as stepping stones for Quintana, but to try and log a time for the team classification.
    And their nearest challengers will give precisely zero sh1ts.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,340
    Quintana took a fair handful of seconds out of Yates and Mollema today. I sincerely doubt he'll beat Froome, but he might yet make the podium.

    I still think his major problem is that he isn't matching this year's hype. That's hardly something that's unique to him.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,264
    underlayunderlay wrote:
    I still think his major problem is that he isn't matching this year's hype. That's hardly something that's unique to him.
    I think he there's huge expectation of him from Colombia. A lot of pressure. He's seen as some kind of chosen one. When Lopez becomes a big challenger I think it'll help him considerably.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • itboffin
    itboffin Posts: 20,072
    What's with attacking the yellow jersey on a day like today wheres the respect for the tour, I hope froome is able to make them pay for that tomorrow
    Rule #5 // Harden The Feck Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
  • bobmcstuff
    bobmcstuff Posts: 11,445
    itboffin wrote:
    What's with attacking the yellow jersey on a day like today wheres the respect for the tour, I hope froome is able to make them pay for that tomorrow
    I'll bite:

    It was a pretty limp attack and he didn't look too happy coming over the line - he gained barely 10 seconds, on a stage where Froome had fallen off and was riding a teammate's bike.

    Valverde finished 3 seconds up on Quintana and if he hadn't been looking after Quintana earlier on (which he did a good job of to be fair) he I think he'd have finished further up.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,596
    2 2nd places in the TdF and a Giro win.

    Apart from that, his GT performances haven't shown he is a contender beyond week stage races. His palmares is littered with wins in minor tours. IMHO, I think he is a pure climber and nothing else. How he will challenge for the TdF, I do not know. Is Movistar desperate for a contender? Are they promoting Quintana because it pulls in the sponsorship monies?
    Adam Yates and Romain Bardet are showing more talent and a better long term future than NQ.
    But he's 26 and there's time I suppose.

    (As in another thread) Only Sastre, Pantani, Zoetemelk(?) and Delgado have won the TdF since 1980 as pure climbers.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,110
    itboffin wrote:
    What's with attacking the yellow jersey on a day like today wheres the respect for the tour, I hope froome is able to make them pay for that tomorrow


    Eh ? It's a race the idea is to gain time on your opponents. Have I fallen for some obvious trolling here or were you serious?
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,110
    Pinno wrote:
    2 2nd places in the TdF and a Giro win.

    Apart from that, his GT performances haven't shown he is a contender beyond week stage races. His palmares is littered with wins in minor tours. IMHO, I think he is a pure climber and nothing else. How he will challenge for the TdF, I do not know. Is Movistar desperate for a contender? Are they promoting Quintana because it pulls in the sponsorship monies?
    Adam Yates and Romain Bardet are showing more talent and a better long term future than NQ.
    But he's 26 and there's time I suppose.

    (As in another thread) Only Sastre, Pantani, Zoetemelk(?) and Delgado have won the TdF since 1980 as pure climbers.


    I'm not sure that there is such a thing as a pure climber any more - if you have the power to climb mountains they can generally get you in the wind tunnel and get a decent TT out of you. There are some second tier climbers who climb well but can't TT but generally they haven't put the time in to get good at that because their climbing isn't quite good enough for GC anyway.

    I just think Quintana isn't on the form he promised to be on with his previous results - whether his training has been sup-optimal or he's been carrying a virus or he is just one of those riders that peaks early in their career maybe time will tell.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,645
    DeVlaeminck wrote:
    itboffin wrote:
    What's with attacking the yellow jersey on a day like today wheres the respect for the tour, I hope froome is able to make them pay for that tomorrow


    Eh ? It's a race the idea is to gain time on your opponents. Have I fallen for some obvious trolling here or were you serious?

    There'd be a case had he attacked while Froome was trying to get on rather than when he'd been safely back in the peloton for kilometres and had ridden make through to the front.
  • Garry H
    Garry H Posts: 6,639
    Garry H wrote:
    I don't. I expect him to claw back the three minutes from Froome by Sunday and take the MJ.

    Hmm, I got that one wrong!
  • takethehighroad
    takethehighroad Posts: 6,823
    He's got to have the best average finishing position in the Tour, no?

    Two 2nds and a 3rd in 3 participations. Froome's average will be affected by 2008
  • gsk82
    gsk82 Posts: 3,620
    TakeTheHighRoad wrote:
    He's got to have the best average finishing position in the Tour, no?

    Two 2nds and a 3rd in 3 participations. Froome's average will be affected by 2008

    Damn statistics
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • hypster
    hypster Posts: 1,229
    TakeTheHighRoad wrote:
    He's got to have the best average finishing position in the Tour, no?

    Two 2nds and a 3rd in 3 participations. Froome's average will be affected by 2008

    That just about sums Quintana up - distinctly average!
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    hypster wrote:
    TakeTheHighRoad wrote:
    He's got to have the best average finishing position in the Tour, no?

    Two 2nds and a 3rd in 3 participations. Froome's average will be affected by 2008

    That just about sums Quintana up - distinctly average!
    Give me a break hypster. Guys a pro bike racer. One in a million capable of it. YOU on the other hand are the "distinctly average" one. Got it?
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,596
    dennisn wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    TakeTheHighRoad wrote:
    He's got to have the best average finishing position in the Tour, no?

    Two 2nds and a 3rd in 3 participations. Froome's average will be affected by 2008

    That just about sums Quintana up - distinctly average!
    Give me a break hypster. Guys a pro bike racer. One in a million capable of it. YOU on the other hand are the "distinctly average" one. Got it?

    No doubt Quintana is good and he certainly doesn't have the SKY train in front of him but will he win a TdF?
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Pinno wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    TakeTheHighRoad wrote:
    He's got to have the best average finishing position in the Tour, no?

    Two 2nds and a 3rd in 3 participations. Froome's average will be affected by 2008

    That just about sums Quintana up - distinctly average!
    Give me a break hypster. Guys a pro bike racer. One in a million capable of it. YOU on the other hand are the "distinctly average" one. Got it?

    No doubt Quintana is good and he certainly doesn't have the SKY train in front of him but will he win a TdF?
    So, if you don't win the TDF you're a bum? Criticizing ANY of these guys about their cycling achievements is pure folly and it's almost always from much much much lesser riders.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,596
    dennisn wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    TakeTheHighRoad wrote:
    He's got to have the best average finishing position in the Tour, no?

    Two 2nds and a 3rd in 3 participations. Froome's average will be affected by 2008

    That just about sums Quintana up - distinctly average!
    Give me a break hypster. Guys a pro bike racer. One in a million capable of it. YOU on the other hand are the "distinctly average" one. Got it?

    No doubt Quintana is good and he certainly doesn't have the SKY train in front of him but will he win a TdF?
    So, if you don't win the TDF you're a bum?

    I never said that and I don't think he is a bum. It's okay to to ask the question isn't it?
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Pinno wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    Pinno wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    hypster wrote:
    TakeTheHighRoad wrote:
    He's got to have the best average finishing position in the Tour, no?

    Two 2nds and a 3rd in 3 participations. Froome's average will be affected by 2008

    That just about sums Quintana up - distinctly average!
    Give me a break hypster. Guys a pro bike racer. One in a million capable of it. YOU on the other hand are the "distinctly average" one. Got it?

    No doubt Quintana is good and he certainly doesn't have the SKY train in front of him but will he win a TdF?
    So, if you don't win the TDF you're a bum?

    I never said that and I don't think he is a bum. It's okay to to ask the question isn't it?
    Sorry, just sort sounded like that's what you were implying.

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