Rio Olympics - track cycling

RichN95.

confused@BR wrote:

I have a copy of Nicole Cooke's autobiography The Breakaway on my Kindle. I haven't finished it as the litany of clashes with the 'blazers' becomes wearing (although not as wearing as it must have been for NC).

I haven't read that book. Was there anyone in it that she didn't clash with? (Excluding her father - there's often a father).

confused@BR

Not so far..... It is well written and paints a picture of a Vale of Glamorgan childhood both idyllc and recognizable, to me at least. The battles do come thick and fast.
I'm reading Fallen Angel: The Passion of Fausto Coppi at present, not many laughs there either.

RichN95.

confused@BR wrote:

Not so far..... It is well written and paints a picture of a Vale of Glamorgan childhood both idyllc and recognizable, to me at least. The battles do come thick and fast.
I'm reading Fallen Angel: The Passion of Fausto Coppi at present, not many laughs there either.

The Vale of Glamorgan is lovely and the Coppi book is great (better than the author's Simpson book IMO)

stagehopper

To be fair to Nicole, she had to sue 4 teams for failing to pay wages, the mad drug thing with her first team who took her bikes away, BC's sometimes bizarre Women's WC choices (which continue to this day) and all this whilst somehow becoming the best female cyclist in the world. And very unlucky with her recurring knee injury.

Pross

Why do some people assume the word of a rider who has just been effectively booted out of the Olympics is gospel? I'm not saying it didn't happen but why are people choosing to ignore that Sutton denies it did? It's one person's word against another but people have chosen to accept it. Do you always believe something published in the Mail?

As for a comment above about what Pendleton had to put up with, from everything I've heard it was the other way round and how everyone had to put up with her tantrums. I also followed Cooke's rise through the ranks from U12 to being the best in the world. She got no support and BC were a very amateur set up at the time. As a result she had to be very determined and self-sufficient which also meant her (and her father) fought hard to get her to the top and some found them difficult. It also resulted in her not necessarily being a 'team player' and therefore not getting support from other riders. She eventually got her Olympic gold after a well known high level local rider / coach sat her down and told her she needed to work with her team more. Who knows what she might have achieved if BC were what they are today? She may have won even more or she may have ended up with a track focussed career instead.

Finally, anyone who has ever done a BC coaching course will know how much emphasis is placed on how to deal with various groups appropriately. There's loads on safeguarding and the like so I find it hard to believe sexism and bullying are openly accepted at the pinnacle of their coaching team.

DeVlaeminck

Has Sutton denied the baby comment, I haven't seen that have you got a link ?

Pross

It's in the Guardian article in the link above.

Sutton strongly denies her claims and the team were adamant that the allegations had not been not raised during a lengthy dismissal procedure. The deadline for Varnish’s appeal was extended several times to enable her to prepare her case against the performance issues that were cited as the reason for her contract not being renewed.

r0bh

Pross wrote:

Why do some people assume the word of a rider who has just been effectively booted out of the Olympics is gospel? I'm not saying it didn't happen but why are people choosing to ignore that Sutton denies it did? It's one person's word against another but people have chosen to accept it. Do you always believe something published in the Mail?

As for a comment above about what Pendleton had to put up with, from everything I've heard it was the other way round and how everyone had to put up with her tantrums. I also followed Cooke's rise through the ranks from U12 to being the best in the world. She got no support and BC were a very amateur set up at the time. As a result she had to be very determined and self-sufficient which also meant her (and her father) fought hard to get her to the top and some found them difficult. It also resulted in her not necessarily being a 'team player' and therefore not getting support from other riders. She eventually got her Olympic gold after a well known high level local rider / coach sat her down and told her she needed to work with her team more. Who knows what she might have achieved if BC were what they are today? She may have won even more or she may have ended up with a track focussed career instead.

Finally, anyone who has ever done a BC coaching course will know how much emphasis is placed on how to deal with various groups appropriately. There's loads on safeguarding and the like so I find it hard to believe sexism and bullying are openly accepted at the pinnacle of their coaching team.

The claims by Pendleton and Cooke in their books were put to Shane Sutton in a cycling podcast interview, definitely worth listening to his responses:

https://audioboom.com/boos/2667668-the-shane-sutton-interview

awavey

Pross wrote:

Why do some people assume the word of a rider who has just been effectively booted out of the Olympics is gospel? I'm not saying it didn't happen but why are people choosing to ignore that Sutton denies it did? It's one person's word against another but people have chosen to accept it. Do you always believe something published in the Mail?

because it doesnt feel like a categorical denial of the form of "I, or anyone else on my staff, have never said those things directly to Jess, or to other people,including the press in off or on the record meetings, concerning Jess".

denying that you never said or did anything unprofessionally,well its nice to know but what does that really mean in this context ?

so I have a lot less trouble believing a word of another rider who seems to have been chewed up and dumped out by the Great British cycling team, who maybe good at being technical skills coaches, but seem to be sorely lacking in the management skills department

DeVlaeminck

Yes the statement is surprisingly vague for someone known as a plain speaker.

Pross

So the denial is vague? Why has a rider decided to make comments in the press when, according to BC (in a very non-vague way) no such comments were raised to them at any point? I've read the whole Mail article now and one of the complaints was that she felt intimidated attending a meeting with 8 or 9 BC staff, most of whom were male. These are presumably the same people she has been working with for years, apparently quite happily. Surely if all this bullying and sexism is going on then she, and others, would be walking away before being 'sacked'. She even gives a technical reason for the alleged 'big ass' comment which suggests she understands there is a reason for it and whilst the terminology may not be the best how many people in the real world use terms like 'glute heavy' or whatever the phrase was she used? Like it or not but body shape plays a part in sport both male and female. It was also interesting that she accuses the coaches of bullying but then bemoans suggestions that she was bullying her team mates. Had she walked away on her own terms and made these allegations then I'd find it easier to believe.

Incidentally, who are all the riders chewed up and spat out by the BC system? Sure, there'll be plenty of people who get onto the development programme but don't quite make it but the whole point of the programme is to develop cyclists who can win at the highest level. It's not an environment with room for sentimentality, it's the same with pro road teams and development systems in any sport. Just look how many Premiership football team apprentices break into the big time.

Pesumably though we can expect such a disgruntled former team member to spill the beans on the systematic doping regime some are insistent must exist within the BC system?

Stridor

Cha Joiner:

"This doesn't surprise me as had comments like this from coaches in the past. I'm glad someone else is speaking up."

https://twitter.com/ChaJoiner/status/724296508183588864

RoadPainter

Pross wrote:

So the denial is vague? Why has a rider decided to make comments in the press when, according to BC (in a very non-vague way) no such comments were raised to them at any point? I've read the whole Mail article now and one of the complaints was that she felt intimidated attending a meeting with 8 or 9 BC staff, most of whom were male. These are presumably the same people she has been working with for years, apparently quite happily. Surely if all this bullying and sexism is going on then she, and others, would be walking away before being 'sacked'. She even gives a technical reason for the alleged 'big ass' comment which suggests she understands there is a reason for it and whilst the terminology may not be the best how many people in the real world use terms like 'glute heavy' or whatever the phrase was she used? Like it or not but body shape plays a part in sport both male and female. It was also interesting that she accuses the coaches of bullying but then bemoans suggestions that she was bullying her team mates. Had she walked away on her own terms and made these allegations then I'd find it easier to believe.

Incidentally, who are all the riders chewed up and spat out by the BC system? Sure, there'll be plenty of people who get onto the development programme but don't quite make it but the whole point of the programme is to develop cyclists who can win at the highest level. It's not an environment with room for sentimentality, it's the same with pro road teams and development systems in any sport. Just look how many Premiership football team apprentices break into the big time.

Pesumably though we can expect such a disgruntled former team member to spill the beans on the systematic doping regime some are insistent must exist within the BC system?

The big ass comment does seem to be a bit overblown, however it suggests a lack of empathy in terms of communication methods (and an amount of taking things too much to heart).

I still don't understand why this decision was made in the run-up to Rio rather than afterwards - Varnish's money for 6 months is surely a rounding error in BC's budget. It seems crazy to get rid of a long-standing team member 6 months before a key team objective - particularly as she's surely in the top 4 for Keirin & Sprint, what happens now if there are a few injuries? This has reduced the competition for places - which is something I've often heard BC highlight as key to prep.

Rodrego Hernandez

confused@BR wrote:

I have a copy of Nicole Cooke's autobiography The Breakaway on my Kindle. I haven't finished it as the litany of clashes with the 'blazers' becomes wearing (although not as wearing as it must have been for NC). I had rather hoped that those days had gone but when you hear about the above plus remembering what Victoria Pendleton had to tolerate, maybe not so much. As an aside, viewed from a distance and with absolutely no knowledge at all, I felt that JV had the 'sticky end' of the sympathy for the change-over disqualification. Plenty of comment about VP's loss but that was the only chance JV had of any medal.

Wasn't Dave Brailsford in charge when Nicole Cooke was unhappy and when Victoria Pendleton was there?

blazing_saddles

Here's the latest as this rumbles on and on.
It's the Times, so pay walled, but if anyone has coughed up:-

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport ... -k5gbktts7

Richmond Racer 2

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Here's the latest as this rumbles on and on.
It's the Times, so pay walled, but if anyone has coughed up:-

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport ... -k5gbktts7

'As British Cycling reels from an allegation of sexism, The Times understands that senior figures in the women’s track team have offered their support to Shane Sutton, the organisation’s technical director.....

'The revelations have stunned some of her former female team-mates who have told Sutton that they have never had concerns about being treated differently or without respect. Sutton, they say, is a straight-talking Australian who is often blunt but not sexist.'

confused@BR

My point was that there has been a history attached to the behaviour of BC and predecessors dealing with female cycling talent (Beryl Burton anybody?). It is sad if there has been some sort of reversion. I am not citing individuals as I have no knowledge of what has transpired. It is the institution that is the source of my concern.
Also whistleblowers usually have a hard time, not a team player, difficult personality, rampant egotism, hysteria (a favourite when females are involved) etc. The many on the payroll can provide any amount of disparagement at no cost to themselves.

blazing_saddles

confused@BR wrote:

My point was that there has been a history attached to the behaviour of BC and predecessors dealing with female cycling talent (Beryl Burton anybody?). It is sad if there has been some sort of reversion. I am not citing individuals as I have no knowledge of what has transpired. It is the institution that is the source of my concern.
Also whistleblowers usually have a hard time, not a team player, difficult personality, rampant egotism, hysteria (a favourite when females are involved) etc. The many on the payroll can provide any amount of disparagement at no cost to themselves.

Well, my point is that I don't have to speculate and do have knowledge.
Not that it seems to matter.....

confused@BR

Well that's alright then, nothing to see here, move along.

Richmond Racer 2

confused@BR wrote:

Well that's alright then, nothing to see here, move along.

Ok then

daniel_b

@Blazing Saddles - I appreciate you potentially won't know or can't even say, but assuming she loves cycling a fraction of what I imagine, has she considered changing her targets, ie to perhaps see if she can shift across to road cycling and join a professional team?
It would seem a crying shame to let all of that talent and passion for the sport just disappear :-(

slowmart

as a neutral it seems that it's a non story with no current corroboration of the accusations of sexism from within the team.

The mentality of an athlete who has achieved success means they won't take failure well and there were news reports that she wanted a ride off to try and win her place back which says it all really.

blazing_saddles

Daniel B wrote:

@Blazing Saddles - I appreciate you potentially won't know or can't even say, but assuming she loves cycling a fraction of what I imagine, has she considered changing her targets, ie to perhaps see if she can shift across to road cycling and join a professional team?
It would seem a crying shame to let all of that talent and passion for the sport just disappear :-(

Both men and women riders have come and gone at fairly regularly intervals, in the Team GB set up.
There are always other potential avenues in track, not just cycling in general.
It's question of if an athlete is prepared to adapt.

DeVlaeminck

Slowmart wrote:

as a neutral it seems that it's a non story with no current corroboration of the accusations of sexism from within the team.

The mentality of an athlete who has achieved success means they won't take failure well and there were news reports that she wanted a ride off to try and win her place back which says it all really.

Non story that she was told to go and have a baby ? I can't agree - wasn't going to continue the debate but there has been no denial from Sutton so we can assume that he did indeed say that - OK it may not be the biggest crime in the world but from someone in his position it's indicative of an outdated attitude towards female athletes. When you add in previous episodes with female cyclists such as Cooke and the stuff Pendleton wrote in her book (and stuff you hear on the grapevine from people who have worked in that environment) there is definitely a case for the culture of BC to be looked at more closely.

Stridor

Victoria Pendleton says Jess Varnish is right – there is sexism at top of British Cycling ...

https://twitter.com/TelegraphSport/stat ... 2543951872

https://t.co/8XG2Q9iIDe

Richmond Racer 2

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Slowmart wrote:

as a neutral it seems that it's a non story with no current corroboration of the accusations of sexism from within the team.

The mentality of an athlete who has achieved success means they won't take failure well and there were news reports that she wanted a ride off to try and win her place back which says it all really.

Non story that she was told to go and have a baby ? I can't agree - wasn't going to continue the debate but there has been no denial from Sutton so we can assume that he did indeed say that - OK it may not be the biggest crime in the world but from someone in his position it's indicative of an outdated attitude towards female athletes. When you add in previous episodes with female cyclists such as Cooke and the stuff Pendleton wrote in her book (and stuff you hear on the grapevine from people who have worked in that environment) there is definitely a case for the culture of BC to be looked at more closely.

'There has been no denial from Sutton...'

Eh? Official Statement from BC published in immediate response to the Mail interview contains his denial. And media reports including the story in the Guardian - link provided by Rich several posts up - reiterate that denial

I don't know what was and wasn't said, but to keep on claiming that Sutton hasnt denied...why would you do that? anyone would think there's only one narrative you are interested in. But that can't be the case. Surely?

darren555

Nicole Cooke has said her piece;

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/a ... ane-sutton

Pross

Darren555 wrote:

Nicole Cooke has said her piece;

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/a ... ane-sutton

She makes some very good points and even today there's an inequality on the road side of things. However, all the conversation above has been in relation to the track and in particular Jess's claims which are a step up in severity. From what I've seen the track squad are treated evenly with the same kit being provided and squad sizes attending events being similar (there's slightly fewer women due to the difference in TS and, until recently, TP sizes). The article almost implies that differences in the men's and women's events are somehow BC's fault rather than the UCI's. One thing Nicole doesn't mention is the kind of sexist comments that Jess is alleging (although I know there have been previous comments from her father about her going away as a junior when there were pornographic magazines being read).

I gave up reading or listening to anything the self-publicist Pendleton says years ago, have a look at some of the things she has said about Mears over the years then compare and contrast with what other riders say about her. Also, have a look at how she publicly blamed Varnish for the DQ in London when she was the experienced rider.

There's still some on here who seem to be taking the baby comment as gospel when there is nothing and no-one to back it up, that's what I don't understand. For the record, I did a few coaching sessions with Sutton when he first became Welsh coach. He's certainly the stereotype of a blunt, straight talking Aussie and I don't doubt he upsets a few egos (including some top pro road riders) but people are prepared to hang him on hearsay evidence from one person.

blazing_saddles

Mmmm, folks seem to have missed the most contemporary and relevant view.
Joanna Rowsell said yesterday, it ain't so:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/36132668

Lizzie A hints at the same thing as Cooke.
I don't think anyone finds the road side of things very surprising.

I am surprised Vicky P was so slow in backing up Jess. They got on.
Not many did with VP.

rick_chasey

Reading the Cooke piece.

I think the headline is right. Elite cycling generally is sexist. No question.

Whether BC is worse than the background level of sexism at the elite end is more debatable.