Donald Trump

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Dinyull wrote:

Robert88 wrote:

Trump's own supporters should take note of Trump's inhumanity. They too could be expendable.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

hmm applies to the 'few' posters on here who can't understand why we post about Trump and his regime

I'm no Trump fan, but how many people on here genuinely think that 21st century USA is going to follow the same path as 1930's Germany?

(Don't worry, I'm going on holiday on Saturday )

Probably not but you’d be ignorant to suggest there are not enough similarities to warrant a comparison.

Implications of ignorance for maybe taking a different view from you aside :roll: , do you see the US engaging in genocide? The implication from the quote above is that some people think they will.

Yeah go do some proper reading on Nazi Germany and come back to us. Or indeed the broader European far right in that period.

Here’s a clue, the relevant dates to consider start a little earlier than you think they do.

Stop being condescending and answer my question.

You misunderstand the implication.

If you don’t understand something it’s not up to you to give me homework.

If you don’t understand, go do the reading.

I have published papers on the role of specific types of language in the causation and proliferation of identity related mass violence including genocides, so I think I’m allowed to say I’ve done my bit on homework, albeit almost 10 years ago, and I’ve not done much on it since.

You can disagree with me if you want but it’s probably best to do it from a position of a) disagreeing with what I actually wrote rather than what you think I wrote, since often they’re not the same , and b) come up with your own evidence.

FWIW your answer suggests a lack of basic understanding of the topic, which is fine, there’s no reason why you ought to, but don’t wade in pretending you have all the knowledge.

Pross

Stevo 666 wrote:

Pross wrote:

Whilst it seems highly unlikely the US could go down the route of 1930s Germany it's dangerous to completely disregard it.

This is the key point. It is possible but extremely unlikely.

However, as seems quite common on here, exaggeration and hand wringing come to the fore pretty quickly.

My main fear is that his leadership will create an upsurge in racial violence similar to the 1960s.

The US President is often referred to as the 'leader of the free world' and yet the US appears to be becoming more isolationist politically and commercially as well as in immigration terms.

cougie

You really can't rule out Trump leading America down the same path that Nazi Germany took.

Just look at his language. Calling illegal immigrants an infestation.

You don't turn into a Nazi state overnight. You turn slowly over many years with many steps. Everyone must be vigilant.

joenobody

Pross wrote:

Examples I saw yesterday on social media included someone arguing that locking up the Mexican kids isn't as bad as locking up Jewish kids was as the Jewish kids hadn't entered the country illegally and another stating that if you supported compulsory education that separates kids from their parents then it is no different to the Mexican situation (both cases seemed to be genuine opinion rather than trolling).

I also saw a comparison with members of the armed forces on active deployment being separated from their kids... :roll:

bianchimoon

Fox news reported that the kids were being held "in what is in effect a summer camp"

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Dinyull wrote:

Robert88 wrote:

Trump's own supporters should take note of Trump's inhumanity. They too could be expendable.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

hmm applies to the 'few' posters on here who can't understand why we post about Trump and his regime

I'm no Trump fan, but how many people on here genuinely think that 21st century USA is going to follow the same path as 1930's Germany?

(Don't worry, I'm going on holiday on Saturday )

Probably not but you’d be ignorant to suggest there are not enough similarities to warrant a comparison.

Implications of ignorance for maybe taking a different view from you aside :roll: , do you see the US engaging in genocide? The implication from the quote above is that some people think they will.

Yeah go do some proper reading on Nazi Germany and come back to us. Or indeed the broader European far right in that period.

Here’s a clue, the relevant dates to consider start a little earlier than you think they do.

Stop being condescending and answer my question.

You misunderstand the implication.

If you don’t understand something it’s not up to you to give me homework.

If you don’t understand, go do the reading.

I have published papers on the role of specific types of language in the causation and proliferation of identity related mass violence including genocides, so I think I’m allowed to say I’ve done my bit on homework, albeit almost 10 years ago, and I’ve not done much on it since.

You can disagree with me if you want but it’s probably best to do it from a position of a) disagreeing with what I actually wrote rather than what you think I wrote, since often they’re not the same , and b) come up with your own evidence.

FWIW your answer suggests a lack of basic understanding of the topic, which is fine, there’s no reason why you ought to, but don’t wade in pretending you have all the knowledge.

Its pretty simple - either you think that the USA will go down the route to genocide or you don't. If you don't then you are being a bit melodramatic as one person put it above.

So which is it?

kingstongraham

As we all know, as long as a cruel and discriminatory policy doesn't go as far as genocide, then it's all a-OK.

rick_chasey

Yeah, history isn't your strength if you distil things into merely binary options. Nor if you distil all Nazi action as simple genocide.

In fact, it's that habit of distilling the world into binarisms in an identity context that can cause a lot of problems that can lead to things like genocide.

That you think it's a "yes/no" question, when I've already given you a more complete answer ("enough similarities to warrant a comparison") just illustrates that you don't really get it.

That's fine, but don't pretend to.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Dinyull wrote:

Robert88 wrote:

Trump's own supporters should take note of Trump's inhumanity. They too could be expendable.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

hmm applies to the 'few' posters on here who can't understand why we post about Trump and his regime

I'm no Trump fan, but how many people on here genuinely think that 21st century USA is going to follow the same path as 1930's Germany?

(Don't worry, I'm going on holiday on Saturday )

Probably not but you’d be ignorant to suggest there are not enough similarities to warrant a comparison.

Implications of ignorance for maybe taking a different view from you aside :roll: , do you see the US engaging in genocide? The implication from the quote above is that some people think they will.

Yeah go do some proper reading on Nazi Germany and come back to us. Or indeed the broader European far right in that period.

Here’s a clue, the relevant dates to consider start a little earlier than you think they do.

Stop being condescending and answer my question.

You misunderstand the implication.

If you don’t understand something it’s not up to you to give me homework.

If you don’t understand, go do the reading.

I have published papers on the role of specific types of language in the causation and proliferation of identity related mass violence including genocides, so I think I’m allowed to say I’ve done my bit on homework, albeit almost 10 years ago, and I’ve not done much on it since.

You can disagree with me if you want but it’s probably best to do it from a position of a) disagreeing with what I actually wrote rather than what you think I wrote, since often they’re not the same , and b) come up with your own evidence.

FWIW your answer suggests a lack of basic understanding of the topic, which is fine, there’s no reason why you ought to, but don’t wade in pretending you have all the knowledge.

Its pretty simple - either you think that the USA will go down the route to genocide or you don't. If you don't then you are being a bit melodramatic as one person put it above.

So which is it?

Just a thought, but maybe it could go part of the way - say, concentration camps and internment without trial - which would still be pretty f***ing terrible.

TheBigBean

rjsterry wrote:

Just a thought, but maybe it could go part of the way - say, concentration camps and internment without trial - which would still be pretty f***ing terrible.

Guantanamo Bay is still open so there is no need to use the conditional tense.

That said, as deplorable as US human rights abuses have been, I don't see the obvious comparisons to Hitler.

robert88

Stevo 666 wrote:

bianchimoon wrote:

Dinyull wrote:

Robert88 wrote:

Trump's own supporters should take note of Trump's inhumanity. They too could be expendable.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

hmm applies to the 'few' posters on here who can't understand why we post about Trump and his regime

I'm no Trump fan, but how many people on here genuinely think that 21st century USA is going to follow the same path as 1930's Germany?

(Don't worry, I'm going on holiday on Saturday )

Have a safe one. Don't get talking politics in any strange bars.

rjsterry

TheBigBean wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Just a thought, but maybe it could go part of the way - say, concentration camps and internment without trial - which would still be pretty f***ing terrible.

Guantanamo Bay is still open so there is no need to use the conditional tense.

That said, as deplorable as US human rights abuses have been, I don't see the obvious comparisons to Hitler.

Not sure it has to precisely match Hitler to be of concern. I did spot this line on the Wikipedia page on Nazism.

All power was centralised in Hitler's person and his word became above all laws. The government was not a coordinated, co-operating body, but a collection of factions struggling for power and Hitler's favour.

Not quite there on the first bit, but the second sentence sounds not far off the current WH.

Also, the denigration of the press/media and the judiciary; the labelling of political opponents as criminals regardless of any charges, let alone conviction; the promotion of the idea that the head of state is above the law; the constant reference to internal and external enemies that citizens should feel aggrieved against.

pblakeney

I think the comparisons with Hitler are circa 1934, not 1944.
Who knows where we will be by 2028.

tailwindhome

tailwindhome

Stevo 666 wrote:

Its pretty simple - either you think that the USA will go down the route to genocide or you don't. If you don't then you are being a bit melodramatic as one person put it above.

So which is it?

Sweet.
He's not likely to gas 6 million jews so we're all good.
That's that resolved.

Stevo_666

Rick Chasey wrote:

Yeah, history isn't your strength if you distil things into merely binary options. Nor if you distil all Nazi action as simple genocide.

In fact, it's that habit of distilling the world into binarisms in an identity context that can cause a lot of problems that can lead to things like genocide.

That you think it's a "yes/no" question, when I've already given you a more complete answer ("enough similarities to warrant a comparison") just illustrates that you don't really get it.

That's fine, but don't pretend to.

Your failure to answer a simple question is telling. The binary question is just a simple way of exposing the weakness of your attempted comparison.

You clearly know that answering honestly will show that your attempt to draw a comparison between the USA now and Nazi Germany are both melodramatic and exaggerated. I don't need a history degree to realise that what is happening in the USA today will not feasibly lead to some re-run of the atrocities of Nazi Germany.

You still have a fair bit to learn about he wider world as I've said before. But its a free country and you're free to exaggerate and wring your hands as much as you like.

Stevo_666

TheBigBean wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Just a thought, but maybe it could go part of the way - say, concentration camps and internment without trial - which would still be pretty f***ing terrible.

Guantanamo Bay is still open so there is no need to use the conditional tense.

That said, as deplorable as US human rights abuses have been, I don't see the obvious comparisons to Hitler.

Summed it up more consely than I did.

I suspect some people think it will reinforce their 'right on' credentials by trying to draw comparisons like this - which as demonstrated, fall down when challenged with some simple questions.

Matthewfalle

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Yeah, history isn't your strength if you distil things into merely binary options. Nor if you distil all Nazi action as simple genocide.

In fact, it's that habit of distilling the world into binarisms in an identity context that can cause a lot of problems that can lead to things like genocide.

That you think it's a "yes/no" question, when I've already given you a more complete answer ("enough similarities to warrant a comparison") just illustrates that you don't really get it.

That's fine, but don't pretend to.

Your failure to answer a simple question is telling. The binary question is just a simple way of exposingu the weakness of your attempted comparison.

You clearly know that answering honestly will show that your attempt to draw a comparison between the USA now and Nazi Germany are both melodramatic and exaggerated. I don't need a history degree to realise that what is happening in the USA today will not feasibly lead to some re-run of the atrocities of Nazi Germany.

You still have a fair bit to learn about he wider world as I've said before. But its a free country and you're free to exaggerate and wring your hands as much as you like.

Richard being melodramatic, exaggerated and hand wringing? Never I tell you, never. He wouldn't do that!



Oh.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Yeah, history isn't your strength if you distil things into merely binary options. Nor if you distil all Nazi action as simple genocide.

In fact, it's that habit of distilling the world into binarisms in an identity context that can cause a lot of problems that can lead to things like genocide.

That you think it's a "yes/no" question, when I've already given you a more complete answer ("enough similarities to warrant a comparison") just illustrates that you don't really get it.

That's fine, but don't pretend to.

Your failure to answer a simple question is telling. The binary question is just a simple way of exposing the weakness of your attempted comparison.

You clearly know that answering honestly will show that your attempt to draw a comparison between the USA now and Nazi Germany are both melodramatic and exaggerated. I don't need a history degree to realise that what is happening in the USA today will not feasibly lead to some re-run of the atrocities of Nazi Germany.

You still have a fair bit to learn about he wider world as I've said before. But its a free country and you're free to exaggerate and wring your hands as much as you like.

As PB pointed out, the comparison is with early 1930s fascism, not the height of the Third Reich.

Put the question the other way round: what would stop the US - or Italy for example - sinking into fascism? What would actually prevent it from happening. Another president did away with the prohibition on imprisonment without trial by just inventing a new category that sat outside normal laws. It was all justified as a necessary response to terrorism. As BB pointed out, Guantanamo is still there.

You obviously think there is something that will prevent this; what is it?

It's not as if 1945 was the last time we saw fascism or genocide.

tailwindhome

rjsterry wrote:

Put the question the other way round: what would stop the US - or Italy for example - sinking into fascism? What would actually prevent it from happening.

The Second Amendment?

rjsterry

TailWindHome wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Put the question the other way round: what would stop the US - or Italy for example - sinking into fascism? What would actually prevent it from happening.

The Second Amendment?

While you wouldn't call the early US Government fascist, the 2nd Amendment didn't stop the Indian Removal Act of 1830. Most would call that ethnic cleansing if not full blown genocide. The 2nd Amendment didn't stop slavery or segregation. So long as it is not happening to them people will ignore a lot.

rick_chasey

Matthewfalle wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Yeah, history isn't your strength if you distil things into merely binary options. Nor if you distil all Nazi action as simple genocide.

In fact, it's that habit of distilling the world into binarisms in an identity context that can cause a lot of problems that can lead to things like genocide.

That you think it's a "yes/no" question, when I've already given you a more complete answer ("enough similarities to warrant a comparison") just illustrates that you don't really get it.

That's fine, but don't pretend to.

Your failure to answer a simple question is telling. The binary question is just a simple way of exposingu the weakness of your attempted comparison.

You clearly know that answering honestly will show that your attempt to draw a comparison between the USA now and Nazi Germany are both melodramatic and exaggerated. I don't need a history degree to realise that what is happening in the USA today will not feasibly lead to some re-run of the atrocities of Nazi Germany.

You still have a fair bit to learn about he wider world as I've said before. But its a free country and you're free to exaggerate and wring your hands as much as you like.

Richard being melodramatic, exaggerated and hand wringing? Never I tell you, never. He wouldn't do that!



Oh.

**massive hyperbole**

viewtopic.php?f=40088&t=13040040&start=6380#p20366367

tailwindhome

rjsterry wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Put the question the other way round: what would stop the US - or Italy for example - sinking into fascism? What would actually prevent it from happening.

The Second Amendment?

While you wouldn't call the early US Government fascist, the 2nd Amendment didn't stop the Indian Removal Act of 1830. Most would call that ethnic cleansing if not full blown genocide. The 2nd Amendment didn't stop slavery or segregation. So long as it is not happening to them people will ignore a lot.

Hmmmm.
OK

How about the USA's place in/ leadership of the organisations set up to ensure it doesn't happen again?

The UN?
NATO and their relationship to the European powers of Germany, France and Britain?

rick_chasey

TailWindHome wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Put the question the other way round: what would stop the US - or Italy for example - sinking into fascism? What would actually prevent it from happening.

The Second Amendment?

While you wouldn't call the early US Government fascist, the 2nd Amendment didn't stop the Indian Removal Act of 1830. Most would call that ethnic cleansing if not full blown genocide. The 2nd Amendment didn't stop slavery or segregation. So long as it is not happening to them people will ignore a lot.

Hmmmm.
OK

How about the USA's place in/ leadership of the organisations set up to ensure it doesn't happen again?

The UN?
NATO and their relationship to the European powers of Germany, France and Britain?

Remind me, what was NATO set up for again?

And, for example, the US has already chosen to leave the UN Human Rights Council.

tailwindhome

Rick Chasey wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Put the question the other way round: what would stop the US - or Italy for example - sinking into fascism? What would actually prevent it from happening.

The Second Amendment?

While you wouldn't call the early US Government fascist, the 2nd Amendment didn't stop the Indian Removal Act of 1830. Most would call that ethnic cleansing if not full blown genocide. The 2nd Amendment didn't stop slavery or segregation. So long as it is not happening to them people will ignore a lot.

Hmmmm.
OK

How about the USA's place in/ leadership of the organisations set up to ensure it doesn't happen again?

The UN?
NATO and their relationship to the European powers of Germany, France and Britain?

Remind me, what was NATO set up for again?

And, for example, the US has already chosen to leave the UN Human Rights Council.

I've got it now.

An independent judiciary and the freedom of the press

That will stop it.

Phew....

robert88

We don't need to focus only on Germany. It was a situation that just repeated other genocides in which a minority is singled out an massacred, e.g. the Turkish genocide of the Armenians. That took place in 1915 and was described as 'Turkification'. At the time Germany had a presence in Turkey and whilst some Germans urged their government to protest, others quite openly supported the massacre. One wrote to the US ambassador Henry Morgenthau:

"Armenians and Turks cannot live together in this country. One of these races has got to go. And I don't blame the Turks for what they are doing to the Armenians. I think that they are entirely justified. The weaker nation must succumb."

One of the darker aspects of human nature being revealed.

The USA is creating its own nation within a nation - the nation of the poor.

In 1948 the director of policy planning in the USA observed that the country owned half the wealth of the entire world. It's population was about 6% of the world. He considered it his mission to ensure that situation was preserved.

The mission clearly failed since by the turn of the century the USA owned only one quarter of global wealth with 4.7% percent of the population.

Unfortunately this enormous wealth is held by very few Americans and this year, at the invitation of Trump the UN made a report which found among other findings:

40 million Americans live in poverty; 18.5 million live in extreme poverty; and 5.3 million Americans live in “Third World conditions of absolute poverty.”
“In 2016, 18 per cent of children (13.3 million) were living in poverty, and children comprised 32.6 per cent of all people in poverty.”
In terms of Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) states, the U.S. has the highest youth poverty rate and the highest infant mortality rate.
“On a given night in 2017, about 21 per cent (or 114,829) of homeless individuals were children.”
The report also focuses on the consolidation of wealth in the U.S.:

“The share of the top 1% of the population in the United States has grown steadily in recent years. In 2016 they owned 38.6 per cent of total wealth.”
In 2018, more than 25% of the world’s 2,208 billionaires were from the United States.

The United States UN Ambassador dismissed the report as ‘misleading and politically motivated’. coincidentally announcing that the US is pulling out of the UN human rights council.

You ain't seen nothing yet though - In 2027 Trump's tax changes will take their full effect, and that really will hit the poorest in US society.

tangled_metal

Independent judiciary is good. Especially when Trump gets his nominee for the supreme Court in place. That'll balance the court out to a republican bias with the new nominee supposedly having Trump like right wing views. Yes, the highest court in the land will maintain democracy and prevent Trump descending further into early Hitler period dictatorship and prejudice.

BTW does anyone know if the last seat in the supreme Court has been filled yet. I've kind of lost interest.

Stevo, in the early years of Hitler's period at the top in Germany did he separate and imprison young children away from their parents and family just because they weren't German? Did he admire and express interest in prominent dictators of his era? There's probably more things Trump is doing that trumps what Hitler did at the same point in his career.

Despite that I doubt America will follow the same path as Hitler's Germany. I just think he's doing some very questionable stuff that I'm still hoping will see him ditched as POTUS before he finishes two terms.

slowbike

Currently, I doubt America will go down the same route as the Nazi's. There is absolutely no way this world will stand by and support genocide. However, I do think there is a general issue with borders - not just in the US, but across the world - and I don't know what the answers are.
As for Trump - Trump is there for Trump - to be "powerful" and make money (which equals power). He loves his own importance, whether he actually believes he's the worlds leading intelligence on all the subjects he claims or not is debatable - I'd think that he partially believes it - but it is just something he says when he feels or is challenged on any subject - "can't question me because I know everything there is to know about XYZ".
Does he believe that immigrants are an issue? Yes - absolutely, but rather than address and help the countries that people are leaving, he just wants to block them to start with.
As for his u-turn on separating children - I wouldn't be surprised if the First Lady and even his daughter had something to do with it - probably threatened with divorce (has a US president ever divorced whilst in office?).

I think - from a sane persons point of view - the best thing for the US is for Trump to be prosecuted and found guilty of significant crime(s) whilst in office. The worst - would be for Trump to die whilst in Office before anything has been found out.

kingstongraham

Slowbike wrote:

Does he believe that immigrants are an issue? Yes - absolutely

I'm not convinced by this at all.

TheBigBean

KingstonGraham wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

Does he believe that immigrants are an issue? Yes - absolutely

I'm not convinced by this at all.

Presumably you are convinced it will get him some votes though? The great wall of Trump was mentioned a lot in his campaign.