Alberto Contador is the Greatest
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and redvision, I really wouldnt recommend you telling the many cycling fans who cast a sceptical eye over Bert's career pre his positive, to follow another sport0
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redvision wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:
So Bruyneel was doping Dave Zabriskie but not Alberto Contador? Saiz was doping Isidro Nozal but not Alberto Contador? Riis was doping Stuart O Grady but not Alberto Contador? Contador has managed to sail through three of the most amoral, dope strewn management teams in the worst period of the sports history but hasn't once given into temptation or even seen anything that made him say "Wait a minute boss!"?
Not having it.
:roll:
Give the bloke a break.
He has tested positive once. Since then he has come back and been tested rigorously at each tour, but not one positive test.
Now assuming the doping control can detect all banned substances then he has ridden those tours clean.
If you are seriously saying because others doped he must have doped on every tour he has won then i think you should stop following the sport because how the hell can you ever trust another tour winner again???
With regards to Riis - Bradley Wiggins won the Tour with Bobby Julich on the coaching staff at Team Sky - so does that mean that Wiggins was doping?!! :roll:
But we know that doping control wasn't capable of detecting autologous blood transfusions in the era when Contador was dominant. That's why Landis, Armstrong, Hamilton etc etc etc were never caught for transfusing blood. That's why we have a bio passport now.
Lets assume, though, that Alberto is as pure as the driven snow. Why would he not blow the whistle on 3 team managers who we know were running team-wide organised doping or encouraging their rides to visit doctors who would provide blood storage/transfusion services?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
If this doesn't resurrect the fighter in frenchie, all hope may be lost. Where's the humble background, and the legions of comrades in arms amongst the peloton? The miraculous healing properties? If Froome had half the balls as the greatest of all time, he'd had won that Tour in 2012...
I love Contador's racing spirit and hugely admire his return to a high level after the ban....a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.0 -
Richmond Racer 2 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Ah but that's not the point.
Everyone is a product of their era and so you take it all in the relative context.
i didn't want to bring up dope, quite the reverse. I just like the comparisons.
Soz, Rick, I've lost track...where are you placing him in the pantheon of the current GT lot? Top?
I think so yeah.
I don't think Froome quite counts, since he's got too much runway left - so he's of a different generation (arbitrary I know).
I think Froome has the potential to be better than Contador, but for now, Contador's the best since Armstrong (if you are comfortable with my lack of revisionism on the results).0 -
I'd definitely put him (results wise, leave aside the rest) the top of the current crop. I think he has assets that the others, Froome included, don't. His race craft and tactical knowledge. But then I don't think history will be particularly kind to the Nibali, Froome, Quintana crop."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:
But we know that doping control wasn't capable of detecting autologous blood transfusions in the era when Contador was dominant. That's why Landis, Armstrong, Hamilton etc etc etc were never caught for transfusing blood. That's why we have a bio passport now.
He has won two GTs since the bio passport was introduced.
Are you basically saying that any dominant rider is doping but doping control does not have the tests to prove this?
You could argue that Froome is dominant today. Let me guess, you're one of the sceptics who believe he must be doping as well??0 -
redvision wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:
But we know that doping control wasn't capable of detecting autologous blood transfusions in the era when Contador was dominant. That's why Landis, Armstrong, Hamilton etc etc etc were never caught for transfusing blood. That's why we have a bio passport now.
He has won two GTs since the bio passport was introduced.
Are you basically saying that any dominant rider is doping but doping control does not have the tests to prove this?
You could argue that Froome is dominant today. Let me guess, you're one of the sceptics who believe he must be doping as well??
Are you familiar with the term "strawman"? As you are erecting them with gay abandon here. My argument is that due to the ambiguity of Contadors wins prior to 2010, I have no idea where he ranks as a grand tour talent. All you can say is that he won a lot in an era where we have no idea what winning represents.
For the record, I think he has raced clean since his ban, but his 2 GT wins have been far less convincing. He has looked a shadow of the rider who would utterly dominate races.
I also don't respect his adherence to the code of silence that has caused the sport such problems."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Richmond Racer 2 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Ah but that's not the point.
Everyone is a product of their era and so you take it all in the relative context.
i didn't want to bring up dope, quite the reverse. I just like the comparisons.
Soz, Rick, I've lost track...where are you placing him in the pantheon of the current GT lot? Top?
I think so yeah.
I don't think Froome quite counts, since he's got too much runway left - so he's of a different generation (arbitrary I know).
I think Froome has the potential to be better than Contador, but for now, Contador's the best since Armstrong (if you are comfortable with my lack of revisionism on the results).
Just my twopennoth, but I think Froome would need to win a Giro or two, to put him on a high pedestal...0 -
Even if he knocks out a couple (or even a few) Tour wins?
Tour is 2 levels higher than any other stage race at least.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Even if he knocks out a couple (or even a few) Tour wins?
Tour is 2 levels higher than any other stage race at least.
Agree, Froome has no interest in a Wigginsesque pursuit of purist goals, he's out for the big one."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Even if he knocks out a couple (or even a few) Tour wins?
Tour is 2 levels higher than any other stage race at least.
Would show he can do the business in all terrains and weathers including the Stelvio, the Motirolo and the Zoncolan in driving snow*, not just when the sun is beating down on his back in the middle of July in France
*possibly/likely0 -
Yeah, and Lionel Messi won't be a great footballer until he wins the League Cup. It will show he can succeed on a crap league one pitch on a cold Wednesday night.Richmond Racer 2 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Even if he knocks out a couple (or even a few) Tour wins?
Tour is 2 levels higher than any other stage race at least.
Would show he can do the business in all terrains and weathers including the Stelvio, the Motirolo and the Zoncolan in driving snow*, not just when the sun is beating down on his back in the middle of July in France
*possibly/likelyTwitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
Yeah, and Lionel Messi won't be a great footballer until he wins the League Cup. It will show he can succeed on a crap league one pitch on a cold Wednesday night.Richmond Racer 2 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Even if he knocks out a couple (or even a few) Tour wins?
Tour is 2 levels higher than any other stage race at least.
Would show he can do the business in all terrains and weathers including the Stelvio, the Motirolo and the Zoncolan in driving snow*, not just when the sun is beating down on his back in the middle of July in France
*possibly/likely
The classic But-Can-He-Do-It-On-A-Wet-Tuesday-Night-In-Stoke test."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Is Stoke in the Dolomites?0
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disgruntledgoat wrote:
... All you can say is that he won a lot in an era where we have no idea what winning represents.
For the record, I think he has raced clean since his ban, but his 2 GT wins have been far less convincing. He has looked a shadow of the rider who would utterly dominate races.
I also don't respect his adherence to the code of silence that has caused the sport such problems.
Well he has gotten older...
Regardless of what he did before his ban, since then he has unquestionably been one of the best GT riders, winning three GTs. Including two Vueltas in 3 years, some would argue that is dominance.
Regardless of his titles, of questions about doping, there is not another rider in the peloton who is always on the attack and does not shy away from mammoth challenges - such as going for the Giro & Tour in the same season.
I think people will look back in decades to come and recognise how great a rider he was - provided he doesn't make any Armstrongesq confessions in the coming years
Interesting read here regarding greatest riders http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... ver-1759290 -
He's always good value, with perhaps the exception of the 2011 Giro, but that wasn't his fault.
He was rip-roaring in the Giro this year. Mortirollo? Phwoar.0 -
He has won two GTs since the bio passport was introduced.
Are you basically saying that any dominant rider is doping but doping control does not have the tests to prove this?
You could argue that Froome is dominant today. Let me guess, you're one of the sceptics who believe he must be doping as well??[/quote]
There's a huge difference between saying he doped and your blind assurances that he was clean. I don't think anyone is saying Contador was doped throughout his career (it's possible) , it just grates when someone states that a rider, any rider, is definitely clean. To be honest doping doesn't come up nearly so much these days on here, it's an exercise in futility to apply our own thoughts and predjudices on past results.0 -
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Rick Chasey wrote:He's always good value, with perhaps the exception of the 2011 Giro, but that wasn't his fault.
He was rip-roaring in the Giro this year. Mortirollo? Phwoar.
That he was. Team werent much support, and he withstood everything that Astana threw at him
The Sestriere stage over Colle delle Finestre - nailbiter!
I was at the top of Sestriere with an unsurprsingly very partisan crowd losing their minds over Aru0 -
Blimey, why don't we just enjoy the racing at the start of the season?
Contador is great to watch, but I agree currently he has more question marks that Froome, Nibali and Quintana simply because he was linked with Fuentes at Puerto and has been found with Clen and traces of plasticiser in his system.
All riders are victims of their era, it's well documented that 'cyclism a deux vitesses' meant that you couldn't be competitive without partaking. Now it appears it isn't as clear cut, and at the very least the benefits are much smaller because of the ABP (albeit obviously it is far from perfect).
He's a great rider, great to watch...personally I would always prefer a Tour including Alberto, although I think his best days are gone. But with or without the doping the others were doing at the time, he has a wonderful palmares and should be celebrated for it. If not then we may as well join the loons in the other place.
Let's not forget, the sport is only as good as the governing body. Thankfully we have one in cycling now that is at least trying, albeit the power is somewhat limited.0 -
Richmond Racer 2 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:He's always good value, with perhaps the exception of the 2011 Giro, but that wasn't his fault.
He was rip-roaring in the Giro this year. Mortirollo? Phwoar.
That he was. Team werent much support, and he withstood everything that Astana threw at him
The Sestriere stage over Colle delle Finestre - nailbiter!
I was at the top of Sestriere with an unsurprsingly very partisan crowd losing their minds over Aru
Astana throw everything at him, even when he's on the team!0 -
inseine wrote:Richmond Racer 2 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:He's always good value, with perhaps the exception of the 2011 Giro, but that wasn't his fault.
He was rip-roaring in the Giro this year. Mortirollo? Phwoar.
That he was. Team werent much support, and he withstood everything that Astana threw at him
The Sestriere stage over Colle delle Finestre - nailbiter!
I was at the top of Sestriere with an unsurprsingly very partisan crowd losing their minds over Aru
Astana throw everything at him, even when he's on the team!
S'pose at least THIS time, they didnt hide his wheel. Or try to make him miss his TT start time0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:I think Froome has the potential to be better than Contador, but for now, Contador's the best since Armstrong (if you are comfortable with my lack of revisionism on the results).
He'd have to have a very impressive end to his career to be considered better. He's so injury/illness prone that I don't think he'll win many Tours back to back.
Contador can claim to be one of only two riders ever to win all three GTs more than once. It's almost impossible for Froome to do that.
I'm surprised I'm coming across as a bit of a Contador fan boy (because I'm not) but credit where it's due.0 -
But he only did those other GTs because he or his team were banned from the Tour (or one one occasion crashed out). Until last year he had opted to only do the Tour where possible. He rode those races out of necessity, not choice.Milton50 wrote:Contador can claim to be one of only two riders ever to win all three GTs more than once. It's almost impossible for Froome to do that.
Froome on the other hand has twice done the Vuelta having been on the Tour podium.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Milton50 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:I think Froome has the potential to be better than Contador, but for now, Contador's the best since Armstrong (if you are comfortable with my lack of revisionism on the results).
He'd have to have a very impressive end to his career to be considered better. He's so injury/illness prone that I don't think he'll win many Tours back to back.
Contador can claim to be one of only two riders ever to win all three GTs more than once. It's almost impossible for Froome to do that.
I'm surprised I'm coming across as a bit of a Contador fan boy (because I'm not) but credit where it's due.
All valid points (except coming across as a Bert fanboy - you're not)0 -
Milton50 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:I think Froome has the potential to be better than Contador, but for now, Contador's the best since Armstrong (if you are comfortable with my lack of revisionism on the results).
He'd have to have a very impressive end to his career to be considered better. He's so injury/illness prone that I don't think he'll win many Tours back to back.
This. We then the GTs start this year Contador will be 33, and Frome 31. He was a late starter so maybe he can keep going longer but he's some catching up to do.0 -
I became an AC fan at the turn of the century when Eurosport showed Spanish races like Setmana Catalana.
He was a young lad that I thought had some real potential.
It has been hard to be a full blown fan because he moves from one fraudulent team to another which means he has joined the two most fraudulent winners of the TDF.
However he is one of the few TDF winners that has really suffered the horrible "Bonk" that most of us mortals have known and therefore he is an enigma to me.
I thought he showed the real AC in last years Giro, Y'know the one with guts like he did in Paris-Nice.
Reminds me to ask :- Have we now finished with the 20th Century Dopers and with the Clinic are now committed to these 21st century riders who obviously dope. ??
AC maybe, being one of them.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
RichN95 wrote:
But he only did those other GTs because he or his team were banned from the Tour (or one one occasion crashed out). Until last year he had opted to only do the Tour where possible. He rode those races out of necessity, not choice.Milton50 wrote:Contador can claim to be one of only two riders ever to win all three GTs more than once. It's almost impossible for Froome to do that.
Froome on the other hand has twice done the Vuelta having been on the Tour podium.
I have a distant memory that Contador knew Astana were likely to be banned from the tour in 2008, but still chose to join. That is effectively choosing to ride the Giro and the Vuelta. He also chose to ride the Giro last year.
I'll give you that he only rode the Giro 2011 (although apparently he wasn't there) and Vuelta 2012 due to suspension.
Froome was only riding the Vuelta in preparation for the tour.
Contador was very strong in 2014, so I'm not sure I would right him off just yet although I suspect he no longer has the firepower to beat Quintana and Froome.0 -
Astana weren't banned from the 2008 Tour until February that year (see link below) and he had originally intended to only do the Vuelta, possibly because Astana had hoped to get the decision overturned. He only did the Giro as a last minute decision as the Astana invite was dependent on his presence.TheBigBean wrote:RichN95 wrote:
But he only did those other GTs because he or his team were banned from the Tour (or one one occasion crashed out). Until last year he had opted to only do the Tour where possible. He rode those races out of necessity, not choice.Milton50 wrote:Contador can claim to be one of only two riders ever to win all three GTs more than once. It's almost impossible for Froome to do that.
Froome on the other hand has twice done the Vuelta having been on the Tour podium.
I have a distant memory that Contador knew Astana were likely to be banned from the tour in 2008, but still chose to join. That is effectively choosing to ride the Giro and the Vuelta. He also chose to ride the Giro last year.
I'll give you that he only rode the Giro 2011 (although apparently he wasn't there) and Vuelta 2012 due to suspension.
Froome was only riding the Vuelta in preparation for the tour.
Contador was very strong in 2014, so I'm not sure I would right him off just yet although I suspect he no longer has the firepower to beat Quintana and Froome.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/others ... -team.html
I would disagree that Froome was doing those Vuelta's only as training. He came fourth in 2012 and looked like he was trying to win last year.Twitter: @RichN950 -
My point was that Contador probably knew that Astana was likely to not be invited to the tour before Feb 2008. The season before Astana was asked to leave the tour and then threatened with suspension.0
