Alberto Contador is the Greatest
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Funded by Alonso?..Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.0
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Gweeds wrote:Funded by Alonso?..
Alonso funding Frenchie to come out of retirement would be very funny....
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Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.0
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I think Riis is involved... so presumably Saxo plus... reports suggest targeting a 15m euro budget which is decent.0
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Big Contador fan so this is good news. Would love to see him have a crack at the Giro Tour double again. He's not the same attacking rider he was a few years ago but still a great racer and actually seems to want more than just GTs on his palmares0
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sherer wrote:Big Contador fan so this is good news. Would love to see him have a crack at the Giro Tour double again. He's not the same attacking rider he was a few years ago but still a great racer and actually seems to want more than just GTs on his palmares
He won't win another Tour.0 -
Joelsim wrote:
He won't win another Tour.
Probably not, but then he is one of only a handful who possibly could (if things go in his favour).
I would like to see him stay on for another couple of years. He still has a lot to give.
Not sure Riis would be involved in his team. The Riis announcement is supposed to be made on Feb 25th and it is being reported that he is looking at buying Tinkoff back.0 -
redvision wrote:Joelsim wrote:
He won't win another Tour.
Probably not, but then he is one of only a handful who possibly could (if things go in his favour).
I would like to see him stay on for another couple of years. He still has a lot to give.
Not sure Riis would be involved in his team. The Riis announcement is supposed to be made on Feb 25th and it is being reported that he is looking at buying Tinkoff back.
Agree, but unless Nairo and the dawg were to get injured, Bertie won't beat them. Good to watch though, although I can't help feeling that he won't be happy being a top 5 contender.0 -
Joelsim wrote:redvision wrote:Joelsim wrote:
He won't win another Tour.
Probably not, but then he is one of only a handful who possibly could (if things go in his favour).
I would like to see him stay on for another couple of years. He still has a lot to give.
Not sure Riis would be involved in his team. The Riis announcement is supposed to be made on Feb 25th and it is being reported that he is looking at buying Tinkoff back.
Agree, but unless Nairo and the dawg were to get injured, Bertie won't beat them. Good to watch though, although I can't help feeling that he won't be happy being a top 5 contender.
Doesn't really have anything else to prove though does he? I mean he's won all 3 GT's several times now. The most decorated of his generation.
Only thing he'd have to prove is that he did them clean... and good luck with that mate!0 -
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Rick Chasey wrote:Best GTer of his generation.
(Not sure Froome counts as his generation)
I think you can go further than that. He's the best since Hinault. Some way off Hinault and Merckx though.0 -
Milton50 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Best GTer of his generation.
(Not sure Froome counts as his generation)
I think you can go further than that. He's the best since Hinault. Some way off Hinault and Merckx though.
I honestly don't know where I'd rank Contador. Without coming over all Holier-than-thou, I really don't respect the guy and I've never found him particularly likeable or inspiring. That said, he's still the 2010 Tour champion for me. But given his work with Saiz, Bruyneel, Riis et al, I've no idea whether I'd place him as worse than anyone else in that era or a special case, especially as he refused to go anywhere near spilling the beans (he can wait for my Oral History of the 2009 Tour for that!). See also his frankly insane monstering of the 2008 Giro after his "holidays" and his scot-free evasion of any Puerto scrutiny.
That said, he's won 8 Grand Tours and pretty much everything else he's targeted. In results terms he is probably ahead of everyone except Indurain, Hinault and Merckx. He's up there with Armstrong I think, for me. A guy who won a lot, but won it in a time where we haven't really got a clue what it meant."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Excellent surmisation goat, pretty much spot on0
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Why thank you, sir. I appreciate it."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Yep. Many, many differences, but in the end the results have the same validity.disgruntledgoat wrote:He's up there with Armstrong I think, for me.0 -
If we ignore the doping side since that's all relative, Armstrong was a stronger GTer than Contador.
More consistent, fewer failures.
But then because of bans, potential or otherwise, plus the fact he's European, Contador has had to ride plenty more GTs and double them up quite often.
What we can say is he's tactically astute. That Vuelta win was swashbuckling, well timed, ruthless attack.
I think we'd think more highly of him if he spoke English better tbh.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:If we ignore the doping side since that's all relative, Armstrong was a stronger GTer than Contador.
More consistent, fewer failures.
But then because of bans, potential or otherwise, plus the fact he's European, Contador has had to ride plenty more GTs and double them up quite often.
What we can say is he's tactically astute. That Vuelta win was swashbuckling, well timed, ruthless attack.
I think we'd think more highly of him if he spoke English better tbh.
I was just about to say that his best Vuelta win was as a consequence of being banned from the Tour that year giving him enough motivation to turn up fresh and ready to destroy a knackered Carlos Sastre and Levi Leipheimer.
I think I'd place his palmeres slightly above Armstrong, that's only subjective because he was required to ride all the Grand Tours whereas the Texan was only interested in the Tour for branding purposes. That said, I think Armstrong beat better riders more consistently: Ullrich, Rominger, Pantani, Basso vs. Leipheimer, both Schelcks with monotonous predictability (they even passed up the opportunity to work him over to get Frank a stage win in 2009), Armstrong 2.0, Sastre, Scarponi etc."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:Milton50 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Best GTer of his generation.
(Not sure Froome counts as his generation)
I think you can go further than that. He's the best since Hinault. Some way off Hinault and Merckx though.
I honestly don't know where I'd rank Contador. Without coming over all Holier-than-thou, I really don't respect the guy and I've never found him particularly likeable or inspiring. That said, he's still the 2010 Tour champion for me. But given his work with Saiz, Bruyneel, Riis et al, I've no idea whether I'd place him as worse than anyone else in that era or a special case, especially as he refused to go anywhere near spilling the beans (he can wait for my Oral History of the 2009 Tour for that!). See also his frankly insane monstering of the 2008 Giro after his "holidays" and his scot-free evasion of any Puerto scrutiny.
That said, he's won 8 Grand Tours and pretty much everything else he's targeted. In results terms he is probably ahead of everyone except Indurain, Hinault and Merckx. He's up there with Armstrong I think, for me. A guy who won a lot, but won it in a time where we haven't really got a clue what it meant.
The thing is, I think the majority of us here suspect that for a good chunk of his career he had some kind of chemical enhancement. Plus off the bike he comes across as a liar and hypocrite.
The problem is if you start to say:
- "well he was doped for that win so we'll take it away"
- "he was doped that year but so was 2nd and 3rd so we'll give him that"
-"he won that race by so much time that even without dope he would have won"
You run into a lot of problems. The only thing you can say is that he beat the rest of his generation on the road time and time again.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:If we ignore the doping side since that's all relative, Armstrong was a stronger GTer than Contador.
But you can't ignore the doping!
Facts are simple - how many GT's did Armstrong win without doping?? Forget the facts that others were doping at the same time, he simply did not win any GT's without being juiced.
Contador had the Clenbuterol ban, but he won Tours before and after that clean.
Anyway, lets not turn this in to another Armstrong thread.
I think Contador is a fantastic GT rider, and given the number of GT's he has won must be considered one of the best.0 -
redvision wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:If we ignore the doping side since that's all relative, Armstrong was a stronger GTer than Contador.
Contador had the Clenbuterol ban, but he won Tours before and after that clean.
.
Er, right you are..."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
redvision wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:If we ignore the doping side since that's all relative, Armstrong was a stronger GTer than Contador.
But you can't ignore the doping!
Facts are simple - how many GT's did Armstrong win without doping?? Forget the facts that others were doping at the same time, he simply did not win any GT's without being juiced.
Contador had the Clenbuterol ban, but he won Tours before and after that clean.
Anyway, lets not turn this in to another Armstrong thread.
I think Contador is a fantastic GT rider, and given the number of GT's he has won must be considered one of the best.
You don't know that Contador won those GTs clean - only that he didn't test positive. Much like Armstrong...0 -
OCDuPalais wrote:redvision wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:If we ignore the doping side since that's all relative, Armstrong was a stronger GTer than Contador.
But you can't ignore the doping!
Facts are simple - how many GT's did Armstrong win without doping?? Forget the facts that others were doping at the same time, he simply did not win any GT's without being juiced.
Contador had the Clenbuterol ban, but he won Tours before and after that clean.
Anyway, lets not turn this in to another Armstrong thread.
I think Contador is a fantastic GT rider, and given the number of GT's he has won must be considered one of the best.
You don't know that Contador won those GTs clean - only that he didn't test positive. Much like Armstrong...
So by that reckoning should we assume that no rider can win a GT tour without doping?? :roll:
Contador tested positive for Clenbuterol (no matter how minute) but he has also won the Giro and Vuelta since then clean.0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:redvision wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:If we ignore the doping side since that's all relative, Armstrong was a stronger GTer than Contador.
Contador had the Clenbuterol ban, but he won Tours before and after that clean.
.
Er, right you are...
plus...ummm, okaaaaaay.....0 -
redvision wrote:OCDuPalais wrote:redvision wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:If we ignore the doping side since that's all relative, Armstrong was a stronger GTer than Contador.
But you can't ignore the doping!
Facts are simple - how many GT's did Armstrong win without doping?? Forget the facts that others were doping at the same time, he simply did not win any GT's without being juiced.
Contador had the Clenbuterol ban, but he won Tours before and after that clean.
Anyway, lets not turn this in to another Armstrong thread.
I think Contador is a fantastic GT rider, and given the number of GT's he has won must be considered one of the best.
You don't know that Contador won those GTs clean - only that he didn't test positive. Much like Armstrong...
So by that reckoning should we assume that no rider can win a GT tour without doping?? :roll:
Contador tested positive for Clenbuterol (no matter how minute) but he has also won the Giro and Vuelta since then clean.
So Bruyneel was doping Dave Zabriskie but not Alberto Contador? Saiz was doping Isidro Nozal but not Alberto Contador? Riis was doping Stuart O Grady but not Alberto Contador? Contador has managed to sail through three of the most amoral, dope strewn management teams in the worst period of the sports history but hasn't once given into temptation or even seen anything that made him say "Wait a minute boss!"?
Not having it."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
Ah but that's not the point.
Everyone is a product of their era and so you take it all in the relative context.
i didn't want to bring up dope, quite the reverse. I just like the comparisons.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Ah but that's not the point.
Everyone is a product of their era and so you take it all in the relative context.
i didn't want to bring up dope, quite the reverse. I just like the comparisons.
I was trying for nuance, honest I was. But the idea of Contador as a naïf who leads all these teams without understanding what's going on at any of them and sails through life looking only at the road two metres ahead of his front wheel grinds my gears."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:
So Bruyneel was doping Dave Zabriskie but not Alberto Contador? Saiz was doping Isidro Nozal but not Alberto Contador? Riis was doping Stuart O Grady but not Alberto Contador? Contador has managed to sail through three of the most amoral, dope strewn management teams in the worst period of the sports history but hasn't once given into temptation or even seen anything that made him say "Wait a minute boss!"?
Not having it.
:roll:
Give the bloke a break.
He has tested positive once. Since then he has come back and been tested rigorously at each tour, but not one positive test.
Now assuming the doping control can detect all banned substances then he has ridden those tours clean.
If you are seriously saying because others doped he must have doped on every tour he has won then i think you should stop following the sport because how the hell can you ever trust another tour winner again???
With regards to Riis - Bradley Wiggins won the Tour with Bobby Julich on the coaching staff at Team Sky - so does that mean that Wiggins was doping?!! :roll:0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Ah but that's not the point.
Everyone is a product of their era and so you take it all in the relative context.
i didn't want to bring up dope, quite the reverse. I just like the comparisons.
Soz, Rick, I've lost track...where are you placing him in the pantheon of the current GT lot? Top?0 -
redvision wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:
So Bruyneel was doping Dave Zabriskie but not Alberto Contador? Saiz was doping Isidro Nozal but not Alberto Contador? Riis was doping Stuart O Grady but not Alberto Contador? Contador has managed to sail through three of the most amoral, dope strewn management teams in the worst period of the sports history but hasn't once given into temptation or even seen anything that made him say "Wait a minute boss!"?
Not having it.
:roll:
Give the bloke a break.
He has tested positive once. Since then he has come back and been tested rigorously at each tour, but not one positive test.
Now assuming the doping control can detect all banned substances then he has ridden those tours clean.
If you are seriously saying because others doped he must have doped on every tour he has won then i think you should stop following the sport because how the hell can you ever trust another tour winner again???
With regards to Riis - Bradley Wiggins won the Tour with Bobby Julich on the coaching staff at Team Sky - so does that mean that Wiggins was doping?!! :roll:
I think you'll find Bert has been given a break. More than once.0
