20 odd pages on Labour and nothing on the refugee crisis??!!
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A lot will also be coming from Libya. It has fallen into a brutal civil war since gadaffi was ousted.
UK naturally helped destroy the existing power structure.0 -
I think a few are from Eritrea too.
Imagine there are a lot from Nigeria too as a result of boko haram0 -
At least the Hungarians have the balls to try and protect themselves from this unsustainable situation.“You may think that; I couldn’t possibly comment!”
Wilier Cento Uno SR/Wilier Mortirolo/Specialized Roubaix Comp/Kona Hei Hei/Calibre Bossnut0 -
At least the Hungarians have the balls to try and protect themselves from this unsustainable situation.
Quite ironic, given how the rest of the world took in 200,000 Hungarian refugees in 1956 alone.0 -
Assad is wanted #1 for crimes against humanity and war crimes. The UN say they have a stronger case for him than any other living leader past & present.
He has over 200,000 political prisoners and has personally sanctioned massacres that range in the 10s if not 100s of thousands. He uses chemical weapons on his own people. He doesn't put it on YouTube.
I don't think debating the relative evil of Assad or ISID achieves anything. Neither are regimes which anyone should want or be forced to contemplate.
You may not but I don't think many people would seriously argue Syria under Assad was as bad as Syria under Islamic State would be. At this moment in time an Assad regime influenced by Russia may be the best outcome with as I say a long term plan to implement change if the threat of Islamic extremism subsides.
It's one thing saying nobody should be forced to live under such a regime but the world is an imperfect place - there are lots of regimes people shouldn't be forced to live under but you have to start from where you are not where you'd want to be.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
I picked up on this little point during Breakfast this morning. It was mentioned to be just over 1/3.The other thing is I think it was either on Newsnight or Breakfast that only a third to a half of migrants crossing the med were from Syria so even if that situation could be resolved clearly the issue of people wanting to come to Europe that Europe would rather did not is not going to go away.
Where are the other 2/3 coming from?
I'd imagine that quite a few are coming from Iraq and Afghanistan.A lot will also be coming from Libya. It has fallen into a brutal civil war since gadaffi was ousted.
UK naturally helped destroy the existing power structure.I think a few are from Eritrea too.
Imagine there are a lot from Nigeria too as a result of boko haram
All very reassuring! :shock:
:shock: :roll: 
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
The Arab world post-Arab spring is a dangerous, violent world.
These things go in cycles and now it's that part of the world that is in flux.
Europe had very violent cycles from turn of 18th-19th C, again in the 1870s, again in WW1 and WW2, and Western Europe was the epicentre of the cold war for 60 years.
Now Europe's had 30 - 40 years of unification and peaceful co-habitance.
It's just the way it goes. Doesn't mean that as Europeans we can't hold out the hand of help & humanity.
After all, if people are going to go on about how Europe is such a Christian place, shouldn't it help thy neighbour?0 -
The Arab world post-Arab spring is a dangerous, violent world.
These things go in cycles and now it's that part of the world that is in flux.
Europe had very violent cycles from turn of 18th-19th C, again in the 1870s, again in WW1 and WW2, and Western Europe was the epicentre of the cold war for 60 years.
Now Europe's had 30 - 40 years of unification and peaceful co-habitance.
It's just the way it goes. Doesn't mean that as Europeans we can't hold out the hand of help & humanity.
After all, if people are going to go on about how Europe is such a Christian place, shouldn't it help thy neighbour?
Of course we can - the UK is one a handful of countries to meet the UN target for foreign aid as a % of GDP and we typically have tens of thousands of people applying for asylum in the UK every year. Beyond that if individuals want to do more then there is plenty of scope for them to make individual contributions either through charity or changing career to do something that contributes more to the common good.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/06/nicola-sturgeon-and-yvette-cooper-offer-to-house-syrian-refugees
If there is no requirement to take Cooper, Sturgeon, Geldof etc up on their very generous offer to house refugees, perhaps they could take in some of our own homeless. Such as these guys.
http://www.soldiersoffthestreet.org/
Just wondering, like...0 -
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/06/nicola-sturgeon-and-yvette-cooper-offer-to-house-syrian-refugees
If there is no requirement to take Cooper, Sturgeon, Geldof etc up on their very generous offer to house refugees, perhaps they could take in some of our own homeless. Such as these guys.
http://www.soldiersoffthestreet.org/
Just wondering, like...
They're not related issues.
I tend to agree that if you're going to use a volunteer army to police the world, you should offer long term care for your soldiers, long after service. After all, war, even if you survive without physical injury, it still affects you. I'm sure the refugees will testify to that. If that's too expensive, the solution, I would suggest, is not wage wars in different continents...!
Don't think that has anything to do with the refugees though.0 -
The Arab world post-Arab spring is a dangerous, violent world.
These things go in cycles and now it's that part of the world that is in flux.
Europe had very violent cycles from turn of 18th-19th C, again in the 1870s, again in WW1 and WW2, and Western Europe was the epicentre of the cold war for 60 years.
Now Europe's had 30 - 40 years of unification and peaceful co-habitance.
It's just the way it goes. Doesn't mean that as Europeans we can't hold out the hand of help & humanity.
After all, if people are going to go on about how Europe is such a Christian place, shouldn't it help thy neighbour?
Rick, at what point would you suggest that europe can do no more for the refugees that are coming to europe and if that limit were reached, how would you stop more arriving?
World peace is not about to break out in Syria, Libya, Eritrea or any where else for that matter and these conflicts are causing millions to be on the move.
Even if we fully fund UN aid programes to camps around the middle east/Africa (which is far from happening) it wont stop the flow of humanity heading to the EU.
I think we are not very far away from fortress europe and fences. tear gas and water canon, public opinion will ensure this and the politicians in power now, want to get voted back in.0 -
13000 refugess crossed into austria today, if that were repeated for a year, thats almost 5m people plus those coming from N Africa, there are 100s of millions of poor and oppressed people in Africa, Afganistan & Middle East and nothing is to stop any of them heading toward europe.
the EU have a plan to distribute 160,000 across europe....... ( woo wee! thats less than 2 weeks worth! )which is likely to completely fail as no country really wants any of them.0 -
Rick, at what point would you suggest that europe can do no more for the refugees that are coming to europe and if that limit were reached, how would you stop more arriving?
World peace is not about to break out in Syria, Libya, Eritrea or any where else for that matter and these conflicts are causing millions to be on the move.
Even if we fully fund UN aid programes to camps around the middle east/Africa (which is far from happening) it wont stop the flow of humanity heading to the EU.
I think we are not very far away from fortress europe and fences. tear gas and water canon, public opinion will ensure this and the politicians in power now, want to get voted back in.
I think the issues the process of taking on refugees are facing are a) they're all arriving at once, so the services that are provided are overflowing, and b) that's compounded by a lot of local hostility.
EU is 500million people, so 1 million people arriving would be a population increase of 0.002% of the population.
I don't know how large the ultimate number will be, but I would be fairly surprised if it's much more than 2 million this year.
If you share it all out evenly, and you'd hope the EU would be capable of sharing it evenly (per head) then there won't be all that much in reality.
If the EU is being selfish about it, then they'd reason that those who were able to make it to Europe are likely to be a bit more enterprising than most, so the chances that they add value in the future will be much higher.
I think throughout the process there is a real 'us & them' undercurrent, which would not have been the case if the refugees were coming from European countries. There seems to be an assumption that it's "their [i.e. Muslims] problem". It taps into some general islamophobia, which (I reckon) in many instances is being used as a vehicle for those views.
So in answer to your question - I don't know, but I know Europe won't be full if another 2-3million come. I think the EU is expecting no more than 2 million, so 4 million would be way out and that's manageable I reckon (given how small a proportion it is of the EU population as a whole). If they are spread out very evenly too, even within each nation, you'd think assimilation would be easier too.
Someone was talking about where refugees are coming from and there was some speculation.
From the BBC:
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Buts its not a question of europe being "full" or where they come from, it is what is sustainable, in a manner that doesnt give rise to the extreme right, the EU is a democracy and you cannot force any country/city/town/village to accept, what will change their communities forever.
2m in one year is completely unsustainable, what european ministers should or shouldnt do, is immaterial, they cannot even get the CAP or fisheries policies right.
So, the EU is doing little, as said, their current figures of sharing out 160,000 refuges is nothing, less than 10% of 2m and they are not going to agree even on that and what of next year or the year after? as i said, these wars are not going away.0 -
/Pedant alert.EU is 500million people, so 1 million people arriving would be a population increase of 0.002% of the population.
0.2%/The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Rick, if you think 2m this year is sustainable you are barking. What about next year and the years after? The genie was out of the bottle when people realised that if they managed to put to sea for Europe, never mind set foot in the place, they would not be sent back.
As regards the reluctance being driven by Islamophobia, think back to the overwhelming sense of joy that broke out throughout W Europe at the prospect of migrants from the Eastern Europe countries rocking up when the EU expanded eastwards.
Selfish it may be, but people are not going to accept the influx in anywhere near the numbers you seem happy to just shrug off.0 -
I think Rick is right about there being an anti Islamic element about some of the opposition but as you say Ballys I don't think that is all it's about or even what the majority of the opposition is about.
Undoubtedly though if the UK were to take 200k refugees most people would rather have say 200,000 French or 200,000 Indian Hindus or Libyan Christians coming than 200,0000 Syrian Muslims - it's just something that is rarely discussed in our media.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
/Pedant alert.EU is 500million people, so 1 million people arriving would be a population increase of 0.002% of the population.
0.2%/
quite right.0 -
Selfish it may be, but people are not going to accept the influx in anywhere near the numbers you seem happy to just shrug off.
Well no, but that doesn't make it right.
They should, basically.
As I see it anyway.
Just because a lot of people think something doesn't make it right, morally or otherwise.0 -
Can we apply that to every post, on every thread?Just because a lot of people think something doesn't make it right, morally or otherwise.
I do already.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I see the assimilation of refugees in Germany and Scandinavia is going well. Who'd have thunk it?
https://www.rt.com/news/327927-cologne-new-year-sexual-assaults/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3384423/German-police-hunt-group-1-000-men-Arab-North-African-origin-sexually-assaulted-numerous-women-threw-fireworks-crowds-Cologne-train-station-New-Year-s-Eve.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=00 -
Yeah it's pretty awful.
Difficult to draw conclusions until what exactly happened is established.
(Like what the motivation was to organise it etc)0 -
It's shocking and highlights the folly of letting in tens or hundreds of thousands of refugees with no chance of assimilating them into European culture.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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Isn't the Cologne events a pickpocket gang using sexual assault and other disturbances as distraction for their picking of pockets? I saw something on tv where a.police spokesman said that. Makes a change from Romanian, Roma gypsy or similar pickpocket gangs you hear about.0
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And just a reminder of why people are fleeing Syria.0
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[quote="Tangled Metal"]Isn't the Cologne events a pickpocket gang using sexual assault and other disturbances as distraction for their picking of pockets? I saw something on tv where a.police spokesman said that. Makes a change from Romanian, Roma gypsy or similar pickpocket gangs you hear about.[/quote]
Oh that's alright then. I'm sure that will reassure the two women so far that have come forward, reporting that they were raped. They were just used as a distraction to steal a purse.0 -
[quote="Tangled Metal"]Isn't the Cologne events a pickpocket gang using sexual assault and other disturbances as distraction for their picking of pockets? I saw something on tv where a.police spokesman said that. Makes a change from Romanian, Roma gypsy or similar pickpocket gangs you hear about.
Oh that's alright then. I'm sure that will reassure the two women so far that have come forward, reporting that they were raped. They were just used as a distraction to steal a purse.[/quote]
I've never said it was OK or anything but shocking just mentioning that the police have reported it as part of a criminal gang's activities. If you want to put your own spin on what I have said please feel free, it's an open forum so we're all fair game for that. Out of interest I seem to remember something about criminal gangs made up of minorities being accused of rape and sexual assault before. Never nice but neither is any sexual assault anywhere. BTW sexual assault of various levels of seriousness happens a lot in the UK on public transport and in life but we're not supposed to bring that up or you get accused of being a feminist.
I'm sure you won't misinterpret the following view that I hope they catch and jail those involved.0 -
I didn't for one minute think you felt it was anything but shocking. I too heard the police spokesman say it was an excuse for pickpocket gangs. The police have come under tremendous criticism following their inaction.
My sarcasm was directed at them not you.0 -
Out of interest I seem to remember something about criminal gangs made up of minorities being accused of rape and sexual assault before.
TM you are right.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11059138/Rotherham-In-the-face-of-such-evil-who-is-the-racist-now.html
They were able to get away with it because police/ authorities were frightened of being branded racist.
In Cologne, the police have suggested that rape was a distraction for pickpocketing, rather than suggest there is a cultural problem with some cultures attitude to women.0 -
The police would feel more empowered to legitimately go after minorities if both sides of the minority argument stopped using criminal behaviour as a tool for one way or the other.
Anti immigration to sail close to the racist wind by saying "it's 'cos they're Arabs" or variants of, and the others who accuse the police of being racist when they fairly investigate crimes committed by minorities (though certainly here police have a bad track record on being fair to monorities too....)
Best treat it as nothing to do with ethnicity and everything to do with criminal behaviour.0
