Forum home Road cycling forum The cake stop

20 odd pages on Labour and nothing on the refugee crisis??!!

tangled_metaltangled_metal Posts: 4,021
edited January 2016 in The cake stop
As the title says we have had some active threads over the Labour leadership and other political issues but nothing has been said about the refugee crisis. Unless I am missing something but labour leadership is not life and death but the refugee crisis in the Med is.

New photos coming out of a young boy, drowned trying to sail to Kos, being picked up by a policeman. i have heard tales of tourists taking pictures of dead toddlers with their eyes missing having washed up on the beaches. People sick enough to be hovering over these kids just to take a picture of them.

Does anyone give a censored ? Let us leave the UKIPers winning the argument and call these migrants out to steal our jobs and leave these kids and adults to die like this.

The very word migrant has been used as a neutral term by the likes of the guardian and BBC but it is not neutral but a word used to imply they are economic migrants out to steal our jobs or benefits. Truth is these are refugees and there is international law concerning them. These laws are not working, we need to sort this out. Let us stop calling them migrants, they are refugees until proven otherwise. Let the UK take in more. Germany 800,000 in the last year, UK less than 100,000 I believe the figures. France is not much better. We are leading economies, leading nations on the World stage and generally rich enough to take more refugees so why are we letting dead babies wash up on Kos?

Anyone got any views on this or shall we just discuss local politics?

PS sorry for preaching but I have a kid the same sort of age as the photographs in a recent news article on the Guardian website and it has affected me. Take a look for yourself.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/02/shocking-image-of-drowned-syrian-boy-shows-tragic-plight-of-refugees
«1345678

Posts

  • morstarmorstar Posts: 4,663
    Partly understandably and partly inexcusably,politicians genuinely don't know what to do.

    The root cause is the chaos being wrought in North Africa. I must admit when the uprisings took place in the Arab spring, it seemed like a turning point. Things were changing of the peoples making. i.e. not the West invading / bombing and creating havoc. This was surely better I thought. A few years on and it's as big (bigger) mess than ever. What should we do to tackle the root cause? I genuinely don't know. Do we invade/don't we invade. Neither seems to help.

    The outcome is a major humanitarian crisis. We're a rich nation but we don't want to help. Anybody seen to be wanting to help from a UK political standpoint will be committing career suicide.

    Meanwhile, it's an absolute tragedy.
  • It is a tragedy and one that there is no easy answer to.

    The best solution would be for the situation in north Africa to become stable. Perhaps the best way for this is for the wealthy nations to try and provide humanitarian support, how can this be done while there are so many factions warring with each other, it's like trying to plat jelly.

    Let's be right, yes the arab spring was part of the reason we are where we now. However, the west have been sticking their oar in for years instead of letting others govern themselves (even if that is under a dictatorship) we've had to meddle, with disasterous consequences. We are where we are and it has to be dealt with.

    These refugees are desperate people and they need our help and the whole of europe should help.

    As for David Camerons comment today while I agree with the first part (see opening lines) he should be ashamed to say we can't take any more refugees.

    There is no easy answer to a very complex and tragic situation.
    Tail end Charlie

    The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.
  • Meanwhile, it's an absolute tragedy.
    It is a tragedy.

    But as hundreds become thousands, thousands become tens of thousands, and tens of thousands become hundreds of thousands and then millions, all looking for a better, safer life, Europe will not be able to accommodate the flood without a huge and very rapid change in culture.

    And yes, flood. Swarm. It's a very large number, and it will get a lot larger yet, however politically unsavoury it may be to say so.

    Frankly, I care, but I don't care enough to see European culture trashed by the influx of vast numbers of people who have completely different cultures and lifestyle expectations.

    Integration has to take place gradually for it to work. Not by suddenly adding hundreds of thousands into the melting pot - all of whom will have to be fed, homed, treated when they're sick, educated, and given jobs.

    Like it or not, it *will* affect local employment. A glut of workers will result in reduced wages. And if the jobs aren't available, it will increase the social security burden on those in work. And since the have-nots will increase dramatically both in number and in density, crime will also inevitably increase.

    You can't evade these issues by stomping on them simply as the voice of UKIP - the issues are real, even if many actual UKIP politicians are tw4ts.

    It's not going to end well.
    Is the gorilla tired yet?
  • The thing is nobody has answers or it seems are even looking for them. It's all about keeping the problem at arm's length. For me I cannot see that it's possible for such a huge crisis. Imagine what could have happened if refugees before, during and after WWII had been turned away. The refugee crisis now is quite possibly becoming on that scale but little Englanders are only worried about their culture such as there is even an English culture. Cultures change, develop and grow as more cultures come into contact. We are as island but our culture has never been frozen in aspic. It's fluid and changing. IMHO to use a fear of your culture being swamped as an excuse for standing back and not helping our fellow human beings fleeing for their lives is a bit cold and inhumane.

    This is worse when you consider the likes of UK, France, USA have been meddling in these regions for decades even centuries. Power plays from the west has helped despots whole that's in their interests then deposed them when it no longer suited without even considering the outcomes. The west created the conditions that created the Arab spring but stood back as it all went pear shaped. Now we're all standing back. Something is as rotten here in our culture as anything is in the middle east and the other areas that.these refugees are coming from.

    So let us concentrate on the Labour leadership contest, shutting our borders and fighting Europe. Little England. Let us become a small and insignificant country with no big ideas or solutions. Let us become UKIP-land.
  • We can only discuss the topics which are started. If you want to discuss a topic you start a thread. That's how a forum works. So who's fault is it that there is no thread on the topic, it's yours. You could have started one at any point but you chose not to.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,279 Lives Here
    Some things are a bit too heavyweight for me want to discuss on a forum, especially because deep down I find those who don't agree with my opinion on this issue are genuinely inhumane, and I'd rather not have to think that.

    You're right to call it a refugee issue, since that's what it is. I've been quite perturbed by the rather more sinister 'migrant' crisis label, which really misses the issue and distorts the discussion in the direction of inhumanity.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 16,745
    No one has the answer, and it is not something to treat lightly, far less joke about.

    That said, I guess there will be some numpties putting jokes on line as I type.
    Send 'em over there say I.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • That's why I started this thread. Two strands to it, the first is to discuss the actual issue, the second about how there's been plenty of political threads during election through to Labour leadership but nobody's started one on this refugee crisis which TBH is a bigger issue IMHO. I'm curious about why nobody has started a thread before.

    Plus the photos on the guardian website has really affected me because the dead.child was only a little older than my lad, brought it home a bit. I'm.surprised they put these photos online TBH since they are graphic and are likely to play on emotions. Would I prefer never to have seen them? Too right but I'm glad I did because it's opened my eyes and heart to looking more.into the this. Not that I can be do anything to change it.

    Another sick thing I've heard 3rd or 4th hand is how people on Kos are taking photos and some are being posted on Facebook. Tourists standing over dead bodies of children in various states of decay. I'm not on Facebook so I may be conned here but if true it's a bit distasteful.

    BTW anyone agree with Yvette Cooper, Labour leadership contender, who said something about every.city should be taking refugees, was it 100,000 refugees we should be taking? I read Germany has taken 800,000. Are we.doing enough? Are we.doing anything? It all looks like the narrative here is that it's a human trafficking or human smuggling issue not refugee issue. Basically UK government is putting the case of for stopping these people rescuing Europe by stopping the people smugglers not by making their own country safe again. The issue is about keeping them out not changing the causes for their flight from their situation at home. Fortress Europe.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 57,279 Lives Here
    Countries were (and still are) praised for taking on so many refugees during the second world war.

    I guess people feel it's different because it's not Europe, but, to be blunt, it isn't.

    If so many people are willing to take on what they know themselves to be a very deadly route into Europe to get away from where they are, then christ, where they are must be horrendous.
  • crispybug2crispybug2 Posts: 2,915
    There's a part of me that would like to upload that photo of that poor dead child onto the Britain First website with the words. "I dare you, I f**king dare you to say something!"


    The trouble is that they would and pretty quickly.
  • dabberdabber Posts: 1,736
    So how many would you let in?

    1,000... 10,000.... 100,000.... 1,000,000.... 10,000,000

    How long would you open he doors for. Just until the end of the year, or indefinitely?
    “You may think that; I couldn’t possibly comment!”

    Wilier Cento Uno SR/Wilier Mortirolo/Specialized Roubaix Comp/Calibre Bossnut
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    very young children have been killed in these recent conflicts, so why get all sentimental over this particulr one?

    Cameron has behaved appallingly, only 200 Syrians have been allowed into UK in last 5 years under a euro resettlement scheme, even ukip want to resettle far more.
    We need to help those in direct threat for their lives not those wanting a better eco future, so holding camps in Jordan and turkey, where they can apply for resettlement, those coming into europe illegally sent back, however unpleasant it will be, inc returning boats back to Libya.
    the conditions in these camps need to be rapidly improved too.

    the difference after WW2 was that the vast marjority of refugees went back to their original homes after 1945, there was no more fighting, so they could go back and rebuild, not so the case here, europe cannot rehome 23m syrians and millions more from Africa, it would destroy what they want to come too.

    We need to engage Putin and the Chinese to attempt to stop these wars in Syria and Africa, even if it means backing Assad, russia warned the west what would hapen if we supported the syrian rebels and its all come true.
  • nobody's started one on this refugee crisis which TBH is a bigger issue IMHO. I'm curious about why nobody has started a thread before.

    Again, you're passing responsibility onto others. Why has there been no thread so far? Because YOU chose not to start one.

    A forum is only what it's membership puts into it, given that you've been a member of this forum for some time and you have the same thread starting rights as anyone else, then the question is why didn't you start a thread a good while ago? Why did you leave it until now?
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 7,674
    very young children have been killed in these recent conflicts, so why get all sentimental over this particulr one?

    Cameron has behaved appallingly, only 200 Syrians have been allowed into UK in last 5 years under a euro resettlement scheme, even ukip want to resettle far more.
    We need to help those in direct threat for their lives not those wanting a better eco future, so holding camps in Jordan and turkey, where they can apply for resettlement, those coming into europe illegally sent back, however unpleasant it will be, inc returning boats back to Libya.
    the conditions in these camps need to be rapidly improved too.

    the difference after WW2 was that the vast marjority of refugees went back to their original homes after 1945, there was no more fighting, so they could go back and rebuild, not so the case here, europe cannot rehome 23m syrians and millions more from Africa, it would destroy what they want to come too.

    We need to engage Putin and the Chinese to attempt to stop these wars in Syria and Africa, even if it means backing Assad, russia warned the west what would hapen if we supported the syrian rebels and its all come true.
    I am a father of small, medium and large children, and I literally shed tears when I saw the pictures. But to be cold, hard and blunt, it was always only a matter of time before pictures like that circulated - and Mamba is right in that they're hardly the first. There is a massive danger that policy wil be dictated by a wave of (even if totally justified) sentiment: so far Cameron has clearly attempted to hold the "taking a few refugees won't help, we need to deal with the causes" line, but I don't know if he'll be able to keep doing that without looking like a cold censored . Of course, the fact that we're doing nothing effective about the causes doesn't help.
    As for backing the syrian rebels - there is a pretty good case that the problems have been exacerbated hugely by failing to back them - although, of course, if we had waded in then who knows what might have happened...

    one final thought - Rick, your "inhumane" comment is a worrying symptom of the syndrome, most commonly found among liberals & left-wingers, that anyone who has a different opinion to them must in some way be not just stupid but actually morally deficient. The resulting tendency to dehumanise your opponents and refuse to engage with them is a major problem in politics these days.
  • nobody's started one on this refugee crisis which TBH is a bigger issue IMHO. I'm curious about why nobody has started a thread before.

    Again, you're passing responsibility onto others. Why has there been no thread so far? Because YOU chose not to start one.

    A forum is only what it's membership puts into it, given that you've been a member of this forum for some time and you have the same thread starting rights as anyone else, then the question is why didn't you start a thread a good while ago? Why did you leave it until now?

    Top trolling
  • nobody's started one on this refugee crisis which TBH is a bigger issue IMHO. I'm curious about why nobody has started a thread before.

    Again, you're passing responsibility onto others. Why has there been no thread so far? Because YOU chose not to start one.

    A forum is only what it's membership puts into it, given that you've been a member of this forum for some time and you have the same thread starting rights as anyone else, then the question is why didn't you start a thread a good while ago? Why did you leave it until now?

    Top trolling

    Eh? If anyone is trolling it's the OP.
  • nobody's started one on this refugee crisis which TBH is a bigger issue IMHO. I'm curious about why nobody has started a thread before.

    Again, you're passing responsibility onto others. Why has there been no thread so far? Because YOU chose not to start one.

    A forum is only what it's membership puts into it, given that you've been a member of this forum for some time and you have the same thread starting rights as anyone else, then the question is why didn't you start a thread a good while ago? Why did you leave it until now?
    That's a difficult question to answer...

    Perhaps because I have become cold to most of the images of conflict and the moment anyone mentions Syria I switched off like the majority of people I suspect in the UK. We have a good life and there is probably a tendency to assume that anyone coming here is probably out to affect it. Perhaps I am cold and selfish, perhaps I feel there is nothing I can do so why bother? Just let it happen to them and keep it out of the UK. Whatever the real reason I admit to being disinterested and cold to it all until the picture of that young boy. There are claims he has been identified. He is 3 years old and died with his 5 year old brother and mother (washed up elsewhere on the beach) but survived by his father.

    You are right Mark, I did not start one earlier and that shows how cold I have become I guess. What still surprises me is that there are people on here who are not like me in that they seem to care more about people in plight around the world. I still feel a sense of surprise that nobody else has started a thread. That does not let me off the hook as you so rightly mentioned. I have started one now though, so perhaps I am changing myself but what will change this crisis? Perhaps discussing it helps in some way I do not know, but I felt it needed discussing. Mentioning that nobody has started a thread before has wound you up so perhaps I should not have brought up that aspect and only the crisis since it seems to be a distraction.
  • I would strongly recommend signing this petition:

    https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/105991

    The UK's policy seems to be: let in a country crippling amount of economic migrants and take in the smallest amount of refugees legally possible.

    We need to accept well over 50k refugees a year and throw out at least 1million of the economic migrants who have contributed to breaking London.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • No worries mate. Over the years in participating in forums and owning them I've seen people post "Why no thread about XYZ", well probably because everyone was waiting for everyone else to start one!

    As to the topic, it's such a massive and complex situation how could you possibly hope to even begin to tackle it. There's no obvious "well if only these leaders did this". Apart from the more obvious one of the fighting to stop but that's not going to happen.
  • nobody's started one on this refugee crisis which TBH is a bigger issue IMHO. I'm curious about why nobody has started a thread before.

    Again, you're passing responsibility onto others. Why has there been no thread so far? Because YOU chose not to start one.

    A forum is only what it's membership puts into it, given that you've been a member of this forum for some time and you have the same thread starting rights as anyone else, then the question is why didn't you start a thread a good while ago? Why did you leave it until now?

    Top trolling

    Eh? If anyone is trolling it's the OP.
    I was not trolling just posted in what was a highly emotional response to seeing a photograph of a child that TBH was too close in size to my own child (his clothes are not too dissimilar neither). I guess I was a little bothered by the photo and how nobody (especially myself) had started a discussion about it but we have been posting a lot on internal politics of the UK's second party. The comparisons between the two topics are not fair but at the time seemed to show to me how I was being a bit insular in the political topics I discussed without looking outside the UK and the EU to the wider issues out there.

    If you think I was trolling then I guess I have not expressed myself well at all.

    PS I don;t think Mark was trolling to be fair just pointing out, rightly, that I need to look to myself on this. That is not trolling but continuing this distraction could head towards it I think. I should not have compared to the other thread just started a clean thread on the refugee crisis. Sorry for that now.
  • chris_basschris_bass Posts: 4,913
    the answer is to sort out the troubles in the countries they are coming from, this is not going to happen though, not any time soon.

    It is a hugely difficult issue and one I am 100% behind us doing as much as we can to help.

    But we have to remember they are people and not just a faceless mass that can be divided and dished out between countries without any thought to who goes where. We need to take into account languages they speak, skills they may have, life stage, family status. Just saying 10,000 here, 10,000 there is not the solution we need people to go where best suits them and the country they end up in.

    But this is a very very difficult thing to get right and makes me glad I do not have to decide the best solution.
    www.conjunctivitis.com - a site for sore eyes
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 23,193
    That's why I started this thread. Two strands to it, the first is to discuss the actual issue, the second about how there's been plenty of political threads during election through to Labour leadership but nobody's started one on this refugee crisis which TBH is a bigger issue IMHO. I'm curious about why nobody has started a thread before.

    There was one before it really kicked in, I believe it got locked
    Some things are a bit too heavyweight for me want to discuss on a forum, especially because deep down I find those who don't agree with my opinion on this issue are genuinely inhumane, and I'd rather not have to think that.

    There is a lovely girl who posts in PR who posts about this on twitter who is far more informed than most people on this subject and I think this is a subject which requires shutting one's mouth and listening to people that know what they re actually talking about.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • I think humanity has somewhat got derailed by the property prices saga, which seem to rule people's life, decisions and feelings towards others to a great extent

    It is a terrible shame
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 7,674
    I think humanity has somewhat got derailed by the property prices saga, which seem to rule people's life, decisions and feelings towards others to a great extent

    :?:
  • Are there topics too difficult to be discussed on general topics sections of forums like this? Are we wrong to want to raise difficult topics?

    Threads like this may end up being locked but along the way there are good posts such as the one linking to a petition.

    It would seem nobody knows what they're talking about, certainly not among those in positions of power, or there would be some sort of solution coming to the fore. There appears to be nothing constructive apart from an attempt to share out quotas of refugees (I hope they keep families together) or some soundbite about solving the crisis at source but without any explanation how to do that. We are devoid of leaders on this issue.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 23,193
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    It would seem nobody knows what they're talking about, certainly not among those in positions of power, or there would be some sort of solution coming to the fore. There appears to be nothing constructive apart from an attempt to share out quotas of refugees (I hope they keep families together) or some soundbite about solving the crisis at source but without any explanation how to do that. We are devoid of leaders on this issue.

    Loads of solutions, its just that we (EU/UN) dont all want to pull together and put boots on the ground in N.Africa and spend billions on economic development in the camps and countries that house millions in jordan and turkey, these last 2 countries have been crying out for years for help and got little or nothing and now they are heading here.

    the children of the family that drowned, tried to get in to Canada, they were turned down and now are dead, that is the tragedy.

    the uk has an immigration policy that stops foriegn nurses coming to the NHS or syrian christians in deadly fear of their lives but allows 1000s in to pick fruit, meanwhile we ve 2million unemployed !wtf?
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 16,745
    That's why I started this thread. Two strands to it, the first is to discuss the actual issue, the second about how there's been plenty of political threads during election through to Labour leadership but nobody's started one on this refugee crisis which TBH is a bigger issue IMHO. I'm curious about why nobody has started a thread before.

    There was one before it really kicked in, I believe it got locked
    Some things are a bit too heavyweight for me want to discuss on a forum, especially because deep down I find those who don't agree with my opinion on this issue are genuinely inhumane, and I'd rather not have to think that.

    There is a lovely girl who posts in PR who posts about this on twitter who is far more informed than most people on this subject and I think this is a subject which requires shutting one's mouth and listening to people that know what they re actually talking about.
    When you talk, you are only repeating what you already know.
    When you listen, you may learn something.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • I think humanity has somewhat got derailed by the property prices saga, which seem to rule people's life, decisions and feelings towards others to a great extent

    :?:

    What I am trying to say is that the "fear of the foreigner" even when a clearly desperate one, is dictated by the fear of losing out on those material things that seem to make our life so much better... we might have to pay an extra 1% tax to support the all thing... what a tragedy, with that half a million mortgage that needs repaying...

    House price is just an indicator... we are all horribly selfish as Europeans at this very moment in time and I feel we have lost perspective of what trumps what in the great scheme of things
  • I think humanity has somewhat got derailed by the property prices saga, which seem to rule people's life, decisions and feelings towards others to a great extent

    :?:

    What I am trying to say is that the "fear of the foreigner" even when a clearly desperate one, is dictated by the fear of losing out on those material things that seem to make our life so much better... we might have to pay an extra 1% tax to support the all thing... what a tragedy, with that half a million mortgage that needs repaying...

    House price is just an indicator... we are all horribly selfish as Europeans at this very moment in time and I feel we have lost perspective of what trumps what in the great scheme of things
    .
    i think you should change "europeans" to english, i see swedes, italians, french & Germans doing their bit (and far more) and i see the UK do jack shitte, even refusing to let the people they rescue in the med, come to the uk.
    We are a small nation, heavly populated but why cant we give say a 2 or 4 year visa? instead of permanant residency.
    As Mamba said, we ve allowed 200 syrians in over the last 5 years, disgraceful.
Sign In or Register to comment.