20 odd pages on Labour and nothing on the refugee crisis??!!
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There is a lovely girl who posts in PR who posts about this on twitter who is far more informed than most people on this subject and I think this is a subject which requires shutting one's mouth and listening to people that know what they re actually talking about.
Yes of course we should all listen to the views of other people and if those people are well informed on a subject then all the more. At the same time I'm always wary of those who try and shut down debate by ruling out the majority as not qualified to have an opinion on a subject. Let people comment and if their views are ill informed or just plain wrong tell them why - that's discussion and debate.
Talking about another 10k refugees is almost an irrelevance given the scale of the problem though for 10,000 people it may mean everything. Europe would need to take many millions of refugees every single year for the foreseeable future to make a dent in the numbers who would come here. I don't think we should be taking say the 800k that Germany apparently has and certainly not year on year. I think we should take more than we do - significantly more - but I don't think we should have an open door - I don't know where that puts me on the moral spectrum for some. The solution has to come from solving the problems abroad - the UK is relatively generous in giving foreign aid compared to many European nations so when Germany says we should do more maybe we should but it's not all about the numbers of refugees we take in.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
There is a lovely girl who posts in PR who posts about this on twitter who is far more informed than most people on this subject and I think this is a subject which requires shutting one's mouth and listening to people that know what they re actually talking about.
Yes of course we should all listen to the views of other people and if those people are well informed on a subject then all the more. At the same time I'm always wary of those who try and shut down debate by ruling out the majority as not qualified to have an opinion on a subject. Let people comment and if their views are ill informed or just plain wrong tell them why - that's discussion and debate.
Talking about another 10k refugees is almost an irrelevance given the scale of the problem though for 10,000 people it may mean everything. Europe would need to take many millions of refugees every single year for the foreseeable future to make a dent in the numbers who would come here. I don't think we should be taking say the 800k that Germany apparently has and certainly not year on year. I think we should take more than we do - significantly more - but I don't think we should have an open door - I don't know where that puts me on the moral spectrum for some. The solution has to come from solving the problems abroad - the UK is relatively generous in giving foreign aid compared to many European nations so when Germany says we should do more maybe we should but it's not all about the numbers of refugees we take in.
The solution has to come from foreign policy, I agree... in the specific case of Syria, it's about time NATO deploy ground forces and wipe out islamic state, I say...
War were fought in the very recent past for a hell of a lot less, occasionally a perceived threat, which turned out not to be realleft the forum March 20230 -
Cameron promised to cut immigration to the 10's of thousands he's failing dismally.
.I think humanity has somewhat got derailed by the property prices saga, which seem to rule people's life, decisions and feelings towards others to a great extent
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What I am trying to say is that the "fear of the foreigner" even when a clearly desperate one, is dictated by the fear of losing out on those material things that seem to make our life so much better... we might have to pay an extra 1% tax to support the all thing... what a tragedy, with that half a million mortgage that needs repaying...
House price is just an indicator... we are all horribly selfish as Europeans at this very moment in time and I feel we have lost perspective of what trumps what in the great scheme of things
i think you should change "europeans" to english, i see swedes, italians, french & Germans doing their bit (and far more) and i see the UK do jack shitte, even refusing to let the people they rescue in the med, come to the uk.
We are a small nation, heavly populated but why cant we give say a 2 or 4 year visa? instead of permanant residency.
As Mamba said, we ve allowed 200 syrians in over the last 5 years, disgraceful.
I'm not confusing refugees with immigrants. What I am saying is, only a week after figures showed net migration in the last year was the highest in history, he's hardly going to go on tv and say yes to a 100,000 refugees. He is only interested in his own parties interest. As posted earlier I think he will have to change his tune when he perceives himself and his government coming over as a bunch of heartless bastards.
On the bigger picture this whole issue is one that could push the EU to the brink.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2015/aug/20/asylum-seekers-eu-comparison-germany-datablog
There is a graph to indicate how many migrants/refugees each EU country would have to take to match German projected contribution to this crisis (projected as at 800,000 in 2015) along with the 2014 figure.
I think you will see only Sweden has come close to Germany. Even France and Italy, whilst slightly better than UK, has not got close to the levels that Germany and Sweden has. AFAIK economically and in terms of population size France is close to the UK so as the graph shows we should both be over the 600,000 mark. Italy is just below that.
So basically I think only Germany and Sweden seem to be making any effort in the immediate patch that is taking in refugees. As far as sorting out the issues in Syria and other origins of refugees there is very little. I think perhaps only those countries affected due to close borders or the operation of the militias/terrorists in their territory are acting. The US is doing something in Syria and UK is showing tokenism in Iraq only because they were asked in by the Iraqis state. Turkey has stepped up, with the excuse to target Kurdish groups too despite them often being the most effective fighters against ISIL. And Jordan IIRC are doing a lot too.
Then there is Libya and all the other countries that need sorting. Not least another ship load has sunk in SE ASia (near Malaysia IIRC). Refugee crises are happening in other areas of the planet too.0 -
So you reckon we should match Germany do you? Why?
Whatever number Cameron eventually caves into (and he will) that won't be the end of it. The numbers crossing the Mediterranean will continue and given the encouragement that their predecessors were eventually successful more will be encouraged to try for it. This isn't and won't only be Syria but many other poor countries.
Unsustainable in my view.
Btw, France has a similar size population to the UK and over twice the landmass.
Think roads, hospitals, schools, transport are bad now... think on. You've seen nothing yet if large numbers are allowed in.“You may think that; I couldn’t possibly comment!”
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Think roads, hospitals, schools, transport are bad now... think on. You've seen nothing yet if large numbers are allowed in.
Yepp, spot on. Point is that we live on an overcrowded island with resources stretched as they are. Letting 10,000 migrants in will just mean there is another 10,000 queuing up behind them...and them and them, ad nauseum. Heart wrenching photos cannot change the basic facts that the demand on services in the UK is getting to unsustainable levels.0 -
Think roads, hospitals, schools, transport are bad now... think on. You've seen nothing yet if large numbers are allowed in.
Yepp, spot on. Point is that we live on an overcrowded island with resources stretched as they are. Letting 10,000 migrants in will just mean there is another 10,000 queuing up behind them...and them and them, ad nauseum. Heart wrenching photos cannot change the basic facts that the demand on services in the UK is getting to unsustainable levels.
its all very well saying we cant let them in but tell us all what we can do that doesnt involve forceably stopping them and turning them back ? Hungary has tried and failed - unless you propose shooting them?
Given europes history on refugees and mass killing, i cant see europe being able to stop any of this, i also dont see Cameron being portrayed as heartless and changing his tune either, i think amongst the majority of voters, you and dabbers view will prevail.
this says it all really....
http://www.vox.com/2015/9/3/9252649/syrian-refugee-boy-british-tabloids0 -
If the view that the UK is overcrowded holds any weight at all, presumably we must implement population reproduction controls asap.My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
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Facebook? No. Just say no.0 -
its all very well saying we cant let them in but tell us all what we can do that doesnt involve forceably stopping them and turning them back ?
Living on an island has some benefits. Personally, I would have no objection to the army/navy protecting our borders in an appropriate and reasoned manner since just because someone is determined to live here doesn't mean we have to just roll over and let them in.0 -
Think roads, hospitals, schools, transport are bad now... think on. You've seen nothing yet if large numbers are allowed in.
Yepp, spot on. Point is that we live on an overcrowded island with resources stretched as they are. Letting 10,000 migrants in will just mean there is another 10,000 queuing up behind them...and them and them, ad nauseum. Heart wrenching photos cannot change the basic facts that the demand on services in the UK is getting to unsustainable levels.
Let them die then, so you can see your GP quicker... :roll:
It's an emergency FFS, it would be nice to roll up our sleeves and help, even just in the form of a monetary contribution... surely we can all afford to pay 0 point something % more tax and give these people some help and a roof... I can't believe we are so selfish...left the forum March 20230 -
Some things are a bit too heavyweight for me want to discuss on a forum, especially because deep down I find those who don't agree with my opinion on this issue are genuinely inhumane, and I'd rather not have to think that.
You're right to call it a refugee issue, since that's what it is. I've been quite perturbed by the rather more sinister 'migrant' crisis label, which really misses the issue and distorts the discussion in the direction of inhumanity.
This.Cannondale caad7 ultegra
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Brother Swift0 -
When I read what some folk post on here I'm amazed at that last sentiment.
Think roads, hospitals, schools, transport are bad now... think on. You've seen nothing yet if large numbers are allowed in.
Yepp, spot on. Point is that we live on an overcrowded island with resources stretched as they are. Letting 10,000 migrants in will just mean there is another 10,000 queuing up behind them...and them and them, ad nauseum. Heart wrenching photos cannot change the basic facts that the demand on services in the UK is getting to unsustainable levels.
Let them die then, so you can see your GP quicker... :roll:
It's an emergency FFS, it would be nice to roll up our sleeves and help, even just in the form of a monetary contribution... surely we can all afford to pay 0 point something % more tax and give these people some help and a roof... I can't believe we are so selfish...Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
Just for reference, here's alist of countries by refugee population. I don't know how accurate it is, but it basically shows that the UK is not some massive special case which attracts all of the world's asylum seekers - we're just a middling western country in terms of influx with 0.3% of the population being refugees.
As for this issue, it's going to need an agreement by the world's major powers. IS has to be smashed, but then an international effort will have to be made to make sure there is a successful transition to democracy. Whether all the major powers will come to an agreement in light of recent events is a question I can't answer.0 -
Some images we have seen have been absolutely heart-wrenching, and I defy anyone to see them and not feel some compassion.
The EU most definitely has to have a cohesive plan on how to cope with the horrendous refugee crisis. I heard that ten million people have been displaced from Syria - that is an incredible number of people. Many are still in the Middle East region in neighbouring countries, but Europe has IMO an obligation to welcome some into our countries also. We need to grant refugee status when people enter the EU and then have a clear plan whereby those refugees can be taken to whichever country is granting asylum.
I would be interested to see if there are stats on where those termed as migrants trying to gain passage from the UK have originated.0 -
I would be interested to see if there are stats on where those termed as migrants trying to gain passage from the UK have originated.
Like this?0 -
its all very well saying we cant let them in but tell us all what we can do that doesnt involve forceably stopping them and turning them back ?
Living on an island has some benefits. Personally, I would have no objection to the army/navy protecting our borders in an appropriate and reasoned manner since just because someone is determined to live here doesn't mean we have to just roll over and let them in.
Have some empathy for refugees. Think what they are going through for a minute. Think about why they are willing to risk so much to get away from where they are.
To Goodwin the thread, people said more or less the same in 1930s when Jews were banging on the door of the UK. My friend wrote an interesting Masters on it.
The solution for overcrowding on trains, hospitals etc, is to invest money into those areas, not push war refugees back into a warzone.0 -
I would be interested to see if there are stats on where those termed as migrants trying to gain passage from the UK have originated.
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Thanks for sharing the link, it was interesting to see how some of the numbers have increased/decreased over time. In my point above I was more thinking of whether the government or some other org has an estimation of the original countries of migrants currently attempting to enter the UK, rather than what proportion of the current population comes from which country.0 -
I'd be on that list having been born abroad, would people have had the military forcibly stop me from coming in as a 2 year old I wonder. To whoever said it's not just Syria but they'll be coming from any poor country you completely fail to grasp what a refugee is. These people are desperate and fleeing a war zone in fear of their lives, that is what is making them take such risks. They are not just trying to steal your job in the hope of earning a few quid.I would be interested to see if there are stats on where those termed as migrants trying to gain passage from the UK have originated.
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With respect to the general feeling tht has come about as a result of these pictures the Daily Mash got it about right. All I can say is it looks like the kid didn't die in vain, at least as a result of his pictures it looks like public opinion, and as a result governments, are moving in the right direction.0 -
Well done Kingstonian.Some images we have seen have been absolutely heart-wrenching, and I defy anyone to see them and not feel some compassion.
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Frankly, I don't, well not much. At least, I don't feel any more compassion than I already did before I saw pictures of it all in the news.Some images we have seen have been absolutely heart-wrenching, and I defy anyone to see them and not feel some compassion.
It's sh!t for them, I know, but all this bleeding heart bullsh!t is only happening because it's newsworthy.
There has been sh!t going on all over the world ever since man stopped dragging his knuckles along the ground .... people suffering, dying, being tortured, and the only reason anyone is making a big deal of it now is because suddenly it's in the news and now the hypocrites are temporarily unable to avoid admitting that Bad Things go on in the world.
While it wasn't in the news, everyone could conveniently ignore it. But now they can't, and they act like it's something new.
Let 1000 in, 10,000 more will come. Let 10,000 in, 1,000,000 will come.
Who wouldn't, if they thought they could escape a sh1tty place and get a nice life for themselves. But you could take all the poor suffering people in sh1tty countries and rehome them in the west, and all that would happen would be that the corrupt cnuts that run the sh1tty countries would continue to be arseh0les, lining their own pockets at the expense of the people that the traffickers hadn't got to yet.
Is there the political will to deal with the corrupt cnuts? Of course there isn't.
I know I'm not going to win any awards for this insightful analysis, but there it is.
I don't even vote UKIP FFS.Is the gorilla tired yet?0 -
Where else are refugees meant to go ?
This logic of "if 10 come 100 will come etc" is not correct.
Refugees are that, refugees. They're running from a warzone. You can't live in a warzone for very long.
It's not a jolly.0 -
Frankly, I don't, well not much. At least, I don't feel any more compassion than I already did before I saw pictures of it all in the news.Some images we have seen have been absolutely heart-wrenching, and I defy anyone to see them and not feel some compassion.
It's sh!t for them, I know, but all this bleeding heart bullsh!t is only happening because it's newsworthy.
There has been sh!t going on all over the world ever since man stopped dragging his knuckles along the ground .... people suffering, dying, being tortured, and the only reason anyone is making a big deal of it now is because suddenly it's in the news and now the hypocrites are temporarily unable to avoid admitting that Bad Things go on in the world.
While it wasn't in the news, everyone could conveniently ignore it. But now they can't, and they act like it's something new.
Let 1000 in, 10,000 more will come. Let 10,000 in, 1,000,000 will come.
Who wouldn't, if they thought they could escape a sh1tty place and get a nice life for themselves. But you could take all the poor suffering people in sh1tty countries and rehome them in the west, and all that would happen would be that the corrupt cnuts that run the sh1tty countries would continue to be arseh0les, lining their own pockets at the expense of the people that the traffickers hadn't got to yet.
Is there the political will to deal with the corrupt cnuts? Of course there isn't.
I know I'm not going to win any awards for this insightful analysis, but there it is.
I don't even vote UKIP FFS.
I must admit to having a similar reaction. Syria been in the midst of war for how many years now? 3 at least? Anyone with a basic grasp of history should know war is utterly horredenous for anyone caught up in it. I can only assume most people woke up to the reality because that image gave them something to share on facebook and twitter and get outraged about other than discussing the latest strictly line up. What on earth do they think has been happening before that picture? Yet suddenly they want to lecture me and others on compassion.0 -
Timing on when people say it doesn't matter does it? It's the content that matters.
I imagine a lot of people didn't realise how bad the crisis was. Perhaps because unroll recently the refugees have been described as migrants which is a much broader term, and one with negative connotations in the UK.0 -
I am a cynic so I apologise in advance.
I am minded of Jo Moore.
What else is going on?The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
The part I've never managed to get a proper grasp of.
The current refugees were talking about are coming out of Syria, and of course we need to get people out of there. But they get to Turkey, Hungary, Greece and the likes. However they are still desperate to move on from there, so desperate they continue to risk their lives.
Now by most measures Turkey, Hungary and Greece are developed, peaceful countries. So why the need to move on? Language? Still being unwelcome, or something else?0 -
So you expect the bordering countries to take on the entire burden themselves?
If you look at the numbers bordering countries are indeed taking a much bigger proportion.
Seems only humane to help them out, as one of the 8 richest nations on earth.0 -
So you expect the bordering countries to take on the entire burden themselves?
If you look at the numbers bordering countries are indeed taking a much bigger proportion.
Seems only humane to help them out, as one of the 8 richest nations on earth.
I'm not coming at this with an agenda, which is unusual for forum postings I know. I'm simply wish to know why they, upon getting to Turkey, Greece etc still wish to risk their lives to push on.0 -
In the current emotional climate, people will not like this:When the crew of HMS Bulwark first fished immigrants out of the Mediterranean, they were expecting to find the world’s hungry, wretched and destitute. Instead, they found them relatively healthy, well-dressed and carrying mobile phones and credit cards, which they intended to use upon arrival in Italy. The military learnt then what politicians are only slowly beginning to work out – that this is not simply a refugee crisis. The world’s poor are on the move because they’re not quite so poor as they used to be, and can afford to travel... in a study drawing on more than a thousand national censuses over five decades. When a poor country becomes richer, its emigration rate rises...A photograph of a drowned child is heartbreaking, but should not change policy: a botched response can lead to many more dead children. Hundreds of Yemeni children will likely starve this winter, victims of its civil war – we won’t see the pictures, so we’re unlikely to see anyone petitioning Parliament about them. But it’s no less of a tragedy. There is, of course, more that Britain could and should do for Syrians; even taking 10,000, as Yvette Cooper suggests, is manageable for a country that absorbs this number of immigrants every week. But let’s not pretend our doing so will help the rest of Syria’s four million registered refugees.0
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Good question.So you expect the bordering countries to take on the entire burden themselves?
If you look at the numbers bordering countries are indeed taking a much bigger proportion.
Seems only humane to help them out, as one of the 8 richest nations on earth.
I'm not coming at this with an agenda, which is unusual for forum postings I know. I'm simply wish to know why they, upon getting to Turkey, Greece etc still wish to risk their lives to push on.
People will come to their own conclusions on that though.Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
So you expect the bordering countries to take on the entire burden themselves?
If you look at the numbers bordering countries are indeed taking a much bigger proportion.
Seems only humane to help them out, as one of the 8 richest nations on earth.
I'm not coming at this with an agenda, which is unusual for forum postings I know. I'm simply wish to know why they, upon getting to Turkey, Greece etc still wish to risk their lives to push on.
Would you want to be a Kurdish or Arab refugee in Turkey? I don't know what Greece is like (but considering the recent successes of Golden Dawn I imagine it's not exactly wonderful for them there), but I know that they haven't exactly been welcomed in Central Europe - Hungarian PM Viktor Orban has been talking about saving Europe from a Muslim invasion and there have been anti-refugee demonstrations outside a refugee accommodation centre near my wife's home town in Slovakia. One of the Baltic states has been talking about not accepting non-white immigrants and Poland has been making similar noises. So their best bet is probably to head on to Germany, which has granted refugee status to far higher numbers of Syrians and Iraqis.0
