20 odd pages on Labour and nothing on the refugee crisis??!!
Comments
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Good question.
People will come to their own conclusions on that though.
Which indeed is the problem. People jumping to conclusions and rhetoric to suit their own views, which is the issue with the entire debate on the subject. Whereas to get a grip on the problem we first need to understand it.0 -
There was an interesting interview on R4 this morning with a woman from Homs who worked as an English teacher. She had finally paddled across to Greece from Turkey with her daughters. If it is on iPlayer I would listen to it. It is the morning news and current affairs strand.
Her story might explain some of the reasons for their moving on. They certainly seemed valid to me.
From what I remember of her story, they lived for a while in the Lebanon. They had a life of sorts including schooling for her children. They had to move on from place to place as it became more expensive to live there. Eventually that led to them reaching Turkey. They tried to live there but the language was so hard to learn so that meant they could not fit in and stay. That led eventually to a leaky dinghy over to Greece where they were at the time of the interview. That journey meant they lost what little possessions they had including clothes and money.
Their ultimate goal is Germany where they have relatives. I think that tale is probably typical. They try to settle down in a neighbouring country to their own but get squeezed out. Their goal once squeezed out of one country seems to be to settle down in the next if they can. If not it leads inevitably to migration to the country where they have links such as family and friends. Those drivers, once they have been forced out of their neighbouring country seems to be to move to where there has been a foothold established by their family. That way on arrival they are likely to be helped by their own family. This is just my interpretation and could be wrong.
Based on this interview and other stories I have read/heard, I get the impression that if they can not make a life in a neighbouring country where cultures and languages are closer to their own then it is a migration to somewhere where family can help them. Since Germany has taken so many refugees chances are that is where they want to go not UK.
I also guess that there are few countries where they have been welcomed. From what I have heard on interviews and news broadcasts the only few countries are those that the refugees just want to pass through (e.g. Greece) and Germany.
The transit countries that are supportive have been great with ordinary Greek citizens helping out of their own pocket with food, clothes, water, etc to the camps on Kos,etc. They are being treated well and helped to board trains through their country. Then they hit Hungary with the opposite policy / attitude. They want to block entry or make it difficult to get through. Why not help them though and on to Germany where they want to go??
As far as Germany goes you have to give them credit for their response from the beginning despite the rise of the right there. Their political leaders have been just that, leaders and taken in refugees. But it is time other nations took more of the burden IMHO.
Back to that English teacher from Homs. I recommend you try to listen to her interview. It is a simple interview but it tells the story well, she is articulate and comes across well. I for one would welcome a teacher like her in the UK as I suspect she would be an asset here too.0 -
I heard that interview on my way into work, which is the reason I'm trying to find out more really
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I can understand that with so many fleeing Iraq and Syria the countries around there from Jordan, Lebanon to Turkey probably have refugee camps and areas where the refugees outnumber locals. This all causes strains which probably causes problems leading to flight from these areas into other countries. I could understand that once leaving the neighbouring countries (where it would be easier to return home from if conditions improved there) there could be a tipping point reached. Kind of, "I'm this far from home I might as well go somewhere really safe." Hence the migration where Germany is often the goal.
All conjecture based on what I have heard and probably not all true. I am only trying t understand it all too by trying to understand what they are going through. If at all possible to think along the lines of "what would I do/feel in their situation?! We are basically the same in priorities / feelings I reckon, despite the culture/religion differences.0 -
In the current emotional climate, people will not like this:When the crew of HMS Bulwark first fished immigrants out of the Mediterranean, they were expecting to find the world’s hungry, wretched and destitute. Instead, they found them relatively healthy, well-dressed and carrying mobile phones and credit cards, which they intended to use upon arrival in Italy. The military learnt then what politicians are only slowly beginning to work out – that this is not simply a refugee crisis. The world’s poor are on the move because they’re not quite so poor as they used to be, and can afford to travel... in a study drawing on more than a thousand national censuses over five decades. When a poor country becomes richer, its emigration rate rises...A photograph of a drowned child is heartbreaking, but should not change policy: a botched response can lead to many more dead children. Hundreds of Yemeni children will likely starve this winter, victims of its civil war – we won’t see the pictures, so we’re unlikely to see anyone petitioning Parliament about them. But it’s no less of a tragedy. There is, of course, more that Britain could and should do for Syrians; even taking 10,000, as Yvette Cooper suggests, is manageable for a country that absorbs this number of immigrants every week. But let’s not pretend our doing so will help the rest of Syria’s four million registered refugees.
The first two quotes aren't about refugees. Nobody's claiming that all immigrants are refugees.0 -
The solution for overcrowding on trains, hospitals etc, is to invest money into those areas, not push war refugees back into a warzone.
It's one way of looking at it.
The other is simply, remove a million economic migrants and significantly increase the refugee intake.
The problem in this country, especially London has nothing to do with refugees, who are amoung the most hard working individuals and have been proven to repay in spades to a country that has 'saved' them. The problem rests squarely on the foreign heads coming here from normal countries and backgrounds to increase their wealth and enjoy what this great country has to offer.
A huge distinction needs to be made between people fleeing for their lives and those fleeing for their bank accounts.
What they really need to do is crack down on the people traffickers. Those guys are the evil vermin that need to be eradicated as part of this problem.
Furthermore, many people flee their countries due to persecution and violence at the hands of so called Muslims. What I don't understand is why the Muslim bodies in the UK and the others do not speak out massively in condemnation.Contador is the Greatest0 -
In the current emotional climate, people will not like this:
The first two quotes aren't about refugees. Nobody's claiming that all immigrants are refugees.When the crew of HMS Bulwark first fished immigrants out of the Mediterranean, they were expecting to find the world’s hungry, wretched and destitute. Instead, they found them relatively healthy, well-dressed and carrying mobile phones and credit cards, which they intended to use upon arrival in Italy. The military learnt then what politicians are only slowly beginning to work out – that this is not simply a refugee crisis. The world’s poor are on the move because they’re not quite so poor as they used to be, and can afford to travel
Surely that "richer" people are prepared to board such questionable boats indicates that they are desperate to escape - and hence Refugees - all the more?
An iphone is little protection against a Mustard Gas attack or a religious fanatic with a machete and a video cameraWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
If the view that the UK is overcrowded holds any weight at all, presumably we
must implement population reproduction controls asap.
Only for brown people!Ben
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Are you for real?If the view that the UK is overcrowded holds any weight at all, presumably we
must implement population reproduction controls asap.
Only for brown people!Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
Are you for real?If the view that the UK is overcrowded holds any weight at all, presumably we
must implement population reproduction controls asap.
Only for brown people!
I have been known to dabble in sarcasm and satire.
(Just to be clear, I wasn't being at all serious. Bender was clearly suggesting something absurd - in a bid to ridicule another poster's comment - and I was being equally absurd in a bit to back him up)Ben
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Unfortunately that's about my level of humour and I know exactly what you mean. Made me chuckle anyway.If the view that the UK is overcrowded holds any weight at all, presumably we
must implement population reproduction controls asap.
Only for brown people!0 -
Unfortunately that's about my level of humour and I know exactly what you mean. Made me chuckle anyway.If the view that the UK is overcrowded holds any weight at all, presumably we
must implement population reproduction controls asap.
Only for brown people!
It's always reassuring when the mods understand. Ben
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Unfortunately that's about my level of humour and I know exactly what you mean. Made me chuckle anyway.If the view that the UK is overcrowded holds any weight at all, presumably we
must implement population reproduction controls asap.
Only for brown people!
It's always reassuring when the mods understand.
careful, it could be a trap!www.conjunctivitis.com - a site for sore eyes0 -
Good to see our great leader Cameron is showing such leadership and not following the tide of public opinion, or rather whats written in the papers, finally we are being led :oops:
Now, 23 anti cancer drugs are now going to be stopped by the NHS as the drugs fund is over spent and kent CC are operating beyond their means trying to look after over 750 children that have made there way into uk via Dover and folkstone, starved of the funds by central government.
I dont know whats going to happen but the present situation is unsustainable, we either have to tax everyone more, as we appear to have run out of money ? and invest in public services/transport etc or turn our backs on many needy people both refugees and current uk citizens, i know what i want to happen.0 -
I cannot go into further detail for fear of legal action but in answer to your question, yes we have.I dont know whats going to happen but the present situation is unsustainable, we either have to tax everyone more, as we appear to have run out of money ?The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Well done Kingstonian.Some images we have seen have been absolutely heart-wrenching, and I defy anyone to see them and not feel some compassion.
My pleasure.0 -
I dont know whats going to happen but the present situation is unsustainable, we either have to tax everyone more, as we appear to have run out of money ?
Haven't run out of money.
UK Gov't wants to cut costs.
That's different.0 -
I'm to pissed to give a toss at the minute, however when sober and I can give any kind of response I may well.............................then again I may not.
Tail end Charlie
The above post may contain traces of sarcasm or/and bullsh*t.0 -
Just heard on the news that two million refugees from Syria are in Turkey alone. That's a staggering number of people to care for, the UN and other agencies just aren't geared up to cope with such an event.0
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I dont know whats going to happen but the present situation is unsustainable, we either have to tax everyone more, as we appear to have run out of money ?
Haven't run out of money.
UK Gov't wants to cut costs.
That's different.
Couldnt agree more, i meant to put apparently in italics! any country that can fritter money away on replacing Trident has plenty of money to spend, its just priorities.
in my job i see obscene amounts of wealth and waste, its just very unfairly distributed and that seems to be a world issue too.0 -
Yesterday I was throwing numbers on the back of an envelope.
If the government decided to increase NI by 0.1% and the average salary is 25,000 with a workforce of 30 million, that's three quarter of a billion pounds.
Now, assuming every refugee costs 20 K per year to house, feed, cure and maintain until finds a job and becomes independent, which I think it's rather generous, that's nearly 40 K asylum seekers that can be hosted at a cost of 25 quid pre tax per head...
It seems like a risible sum of money to do something good... of course we should do a lot more than thatleft the forum March 20230 -
its all very well saying we cant let them in but tell us all what we can do that doesnt involve forceably stopping them and turning them back ?
Living on an island has some benefits. Personally, I would have no objection to the army/navy protecting our borders in an appropriate and reasoned manner since just because someone is determined to live here doesn't mean we have to just roll over and let them in.
Have some empathy for refugees. Think what they are going through for a minute. Think about why they are willing to risk so much to get away from where they are.
To Goodwin the thread, people said more or less the same in 1930s when Jews were banging on the door of the UK. My friend wrote an interesting Masters on it.
The solution for overcrowding on trains, hospitals etc, is to invest money into those areas, not push war refugees back into a warzone.
And what was needed in the end? War.
That's the elephant in the room. The barbaric regimes causing people to flee need to be crushed. How many of you will be willing to sign up to a full blown assault on IS or regime change in Syria? Sad fact is, that is what is required.
No doubt about it, it is a humanitarian crisis, but as some others have asked of those keen to show their compassion credentials, should there be a limit to how many we accommodate and how can you decide where to draw the line. Is there a numerical or monetary limit to your compassion?
Interestingly, people are keen to open borders to those that have made it across to Europe, but what of the weaker/poorer ones not up to the journey? What would you do about them? Is that to be the acid test of whether you get aid or not, the ability to cross the Med?0 -
Fairly sure that's what the UK tried 10 years ago to get rid of the Sadam the despot.
ISIS was the ultimate result of that.
And fairly sure Sadam was originally in power due to Western influence anyway.
So I don't think western interference in the Middle East has any historical precedent to suggest that military intervention will improve things.0 -
War in Syria would be very unwise now the Russians are there helping out Assad.0
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Yes, war would be unwise, but a previous poster likened today's flight with that of the Jews in the 30s and war was the only way to rid the world of a despicable regime. The root of the problem isn't in Europe but N Africa.
As I asked in the previous post, are the poor people unable to escape going to be exempt from our benevolence?0 -
Yes, war would be unwise, but a previous poster likened today's flight with that of the Jews in the 30s and war was the only way to rid the world of a despicable regime. The root of the problem isn't in Europe but N Africa.
As I asked in the previous post, are the poor people unable to escape going to be exempt from our benevolence?
the situation is completely different.
For a start had hitler limited his aims toward the Soviets, would we even had gone to war? we certainly didnt to save the jews, who were being killed by the Nazis from the mid 1930's.
If japan had not attacked the USA we would have lost and would now either be run under a federal europe controlled by Germany and/or been beholden to a resugent russia........
the allies had an end plan for germany, it was rebuilt and controlled, aided by a crushed population, who didnt include a large number of religious fanatics.
The UK/USA have created this mess in libya/Syria and Iraq, what can we now do about it? i dont think anyone has a clue, its all stable door....0 -
Yes, war would be unwise, but a previous poster likened today's flight with that of the Jews in the 30s and war was the only way to rid the world of a despicable regime. The root of the problem isn't in Europe but N Africa.
As I asked in the previous post, are the poor people unable to escape going to be exempt from our benevolence?
the situation is completely different.
For a start had hitler limited his aims toward the Soviets, would we even had gone to war? we certainly didnt to save the jews, who were being killed by the Nazis from the mid 1930's.
If japan had not attacked the USA we would have lost and would now either be run under a federal europe controlled by Germany and/or been beholden to a resugent russia........
the allies had an end plan for germany, it was rebuilt and controlled, aided by a crushed population, who didnt include a large number of religious fanatics.
The UK/USA have created this mess in libya/Syria and Iraq, what can we now do about it? i dont think anyone has a clue, its all stable door....
All undoubtedly correct, we didn't go to war to save the Jews. I didn't make the comparison, somone else did..
My question was what about the sorry folks who can't escape. All the left leaning people on here who seem to think that they have cornered the market in compassion, make scant mention of them. They are happy to take in an arbitrary figure to assuage their conscience, but what about the source of the problem and everyone left behind.0 -
Mamba, what would you do to stop the root cause of the refugee crisis?Yes, war would be unwise, but a previous poster likened today's flight with that of the Jews in the 30s and war was the only way to rid the world of a despicable regime. The root of the problem isn't in Europe but N Africa.
As I asked in the previous post, are the poor people unable to escape going to be exempt from our benevolence?
the situation is completely different.
For a start had hitler limited his aims toward the Soviets, would we even had gone to war? we certainly didnt to save the jews, who were being killed by the Nazis from the mid 1930's.
If japan had not attacked the USA we would have lost and would now either be run under a federal europe controlled by Germany and/or been beholden to a resugent russia........
the allies had an end plan for germany, it was rebuilt and controlled, aided by a crushed population, who didnt include a large number of religious fanatics.
The UK/USA have created this mess in libya/Syria and Iraq, what can we now do about it? i dont think anyone has a clue, its all stable door...."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Yes, war would be unwise, but a previous poster likened today's flight with that of the Jews in the 30s and war was the only way to rid the world of a despicable regime. The root of the problem isn't in Europe but N Africa.
As I asked in the previous post, are the poor people unable to escape going to be exempt from our benevolence?
Meant it more as a comment about a clear hypocrisy I see.
Accepting refugees in the 30s is widely considered (today...) to be a noble thing to do. Don't think you'll hear or read many people saying otherwise, you included.
Yet, broadly speaking, plenty of people are against taking on refugees today.
That was more it.
For what it's worth, there was a lot of resistance at the time and the same arguments that are used now were used 80 years ago.
Also, was reading in the FT that nowadays taking on asylum seekers is cheaper than it's ever been - there's a social security system already in place which makes the whole process a lot more efficient.
If the UK could afford it then (and it could) it can afford it now.0 -
And nobody has tried to anwer Dabber's very relevant questions back on page 1.So how many would you let in?
1,000... 10,000.... 100,000.... 1,000,000.... 10,000,000
How long would you open he doors for. Just until the end of the year, or indefinitely?
Any takers?"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
