Disc brakes in the Pro ranks.
Comments
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OnYourRight wrote:
Let’s hear your theory first.meanredspider wrote:Why did Doull blame the disc?
Just read the thread above - I've given my theory. It may well be wrong but, the more I've learned about professional sportsmen, the more close to the truth I believe it to be. My theory was also, from the look of the shoe, that it was the barrier. I was probably one of the "rabid" disc defenders. I never believed for a second that a disc would leave that type of cut in a shoe.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
Lots of this.Gweeds wrote:Sigh...
Any accident where there's any cut is going straight to the 'discs done it'0 -
That was my initial thoughts but I figured climbing at 15kmh and descending at 80kmh would be a bit tough - unless you could do 25rpm to 300rpm!fat daddy wrote:Or fixes .... track bike guys and girls don't need any brakes
It would make the descending just as tough on the legs as the climbing.
Also it would be extremely amusing to watch (for at least the first couple of hours)0 -
Given there was a German involved can we just blame them as they started after all
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meanredspider wrote:
That photo is pretty misleading - the barrier in the photo is next to Kittel, not Doull
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There were similar barriers where Doull hit though - and he hit them really pretty hard!0
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Video doesnt lie.
I was actually open minded and initially feared that he might be right. I was just being careful not to jump to conclusions and seeking REAL evidence rather than forming a preconceived opinion. I admit I was hoping it wasnt the discs but I kinda feared that it was - it seemed a logical conclusion based on the initial somewhat limited information, however likely or unlikely it would be.
The main reason for thinking it was the discs was a) the cut was in a thin, straight line and discs are thin & straight and b) we couldnt think of another possible cause.
But things didnt quite fit the theory perfectly and under further inspection that was because the theory was wrong.
So, however unlikely, there MUST be another cause. If the cause was the barriers, should we all be shouting for metal barriers to be removef from pro races and replaced with hay bales or tyre barriers like F1???0 -
apreading wrote:Video doesnt lie.
I was actually open minded and initially feared that he might be right. I was just being careful not to jump to conclusions and seeking REAL evidence rather than forming a preconceived opinion. I admit I was hoping it wasnt the discs but I kinda feared that it was - it seemed a logical conclusion based on the initial somewhat limited information, however likely or unlikely it would be.
The main reason for thinking it was the discs was a) the cut was in a thin, straight line and discs are thin & straight and b) we couldnt think of another possible cause.
But things didnt quite fit the theory perfectly and under further inspection that was because the theory was wrong.
So, however unlikely, there MUST be another cause. If the cause was the barriers, should we all be shouting for metal barriers to be removef from pro races and replaced with hay bales or tyre barriers like F1???
You sound so confident on what happened on the basis of this video? http://video.eurosport.co.uk/cycling/ab ... ideo.shtml Or is there a better one available?
Kittel and Doull hooked bars - Doull goes down, lands on his left side / back and Kittel goes down a fraction later. That is about as accurate as can be stated (and not all based on the video) the rest is supposition. Judging from the eurosport video Kittel is still attached to his bike while sliding and it appears like his bike drags over someone for a bit. All of this is pretty inconclusive based on the eurosport video, but then so is the other scenario of the barrier causing the cut to his shoe. The video is certainly not clear evidence either way.0 -
From the Eurosport video (seems pretty conclusive to me):
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Doull is on the left of Kittel, he goes into the barrier and Kittel comes down at least a metre away from him and slides up the road. There is no way Kittels rotor cut the inside of Doull's left shoe in that crash.Omar Little wrote:apreading wrote:Video doesnt lie.
I was actually open minded and initially feared that he might be right. I was just being careful not to jump to conclusions and seeking REAL evidence rather than forming a preconceived opinion. I admit I was hoping it wasnt the discs but I kinda feared that it was - it seemed a logical conclusion based on the initial somewhat limited information, however likely or unlikely it would be.
The main reason for thinking it was the discs was a) the cut was in a thin, straight line and discs are thin & straight and b) we couldnt think of another possible cause.
But things didnt quite fit the theory perfectly and under further inspection that was because the theory was wrong.
So, however unlikely, there MUST be another cause. If the cause was the barriers, should we all be shouting for metal barriers to be removef from pro races and replaced with hay bales or tyre barriers like F1???
You sound so confident on what happened on the basis of this video? http://video.eurosport.co.uk/cycling/ab ... ideo.shtml Or is there a better one available?
Kittel and Doull hooked bars - Doull goes down, lands on his left side / back and Kittel goes down a fraction later. That is about as accurate as can be stated (and not all based on the video) the rest is supposition. Judging from the eurosport video Kittel is still attached to his bike while sliding and it appears like his bike drags over someone for a bit. All of this is pretty inconclusive based on the eurosport video, but then so is the other scenario of the barrier causing the cut to his shoe. The video is certainly not clear evidence either way.0 -
OMG - I just realised that Donal Trump is right - the media is all reporting FAKE NEWS!!!!0
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apreading put a lot more effort into that than I would ever be willing to do! Doull's shoe was not cut by a disc brake.0
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No it's not conclusive. It's a long shot from a helicopter. You can't even tell who is who. (Kittel though, did say they hocked bars and went down together - admittedly his view wasn't as good as your YouTube video)apreading wrote:From the Eurosport video (seems pretty conclusive to me):
And secondly, what does it matter? This is just another concern from pros about disc brakes. There have been many. It seems to be something imposed on them against their will. That's the story rather than any particular accident.
Your posting record shows you have had little interest in pro racing. Why has this got you (and another) so energised?Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
No it's not conclusive. It's a long shot from a helicopter. You can't even tell who is who.apreading wrote:From the Eurosport video (seems pretty conclusive to me):
And secondly, what does it matter? This is just another concern from pros about disc brakes. There have been many. It seems to be something imposed on them against their will. That's the story rather than any particular accident.
Your posting record shows you have had little interest in pro racing. Why has this got you (and another) so energised?
FFS - you CAN tell who is who, quite easily. I even stopped it and blew it up for you. Need to go to specsavers mate!
And what does it matter? All the evidence cited for those concerns has so far been based on falsehood - there is none and they keep claiming there is but there isnt.
Its typical that as soon as you are proved wrong, you THEN say it doesnt matter...
I am energised because there is so much rubbish being spoken, with lies and misinterpretation being spread. There is clear evidence, as plain as day that the media are all reporting something which is not true in this case (and I am convinced in Ventoso's case too although video evidence did not exist to prove that) and it is being used to push an agenda.
I CAN see that discs are an added danger in bunch racing, where multi rider pileups are not uncommon.
I CANNOT agree that discs have no benefits - that just rubbish, they are a huge benefit to braking.
Whether those benefits outweigh the weight penalty in pro-racing I cant say, and I dont know that anyone can for sure. Having said that, as I understand it with the minimum weight there may not be much if any weight penalty these days.
There is some merit in the riders concerns over extra danger - but we see here and with so many other crashes that there are alot of very serious dangers already. Whether the added danger of discs is significant in comparison is not for me to say, but I doubt it.0 -
The pros don't want them, that much is clear - Few are using them. But riders are being pushed onto them by sponsors.apreading wrote:And what does it matter? All the evidence cited for those concerns has so far been based on falsehood - there is none and they keep claiming there is but there isnt.
Its typical that as soon as you are proved wrong, you THEN say it doesnt matter...
I am energised because there is so much rubbish being spoken, with lies and misinterpretation being spread. There is clear evidence, as plain as day that the media are all reporting something which is not true in this case (and I am convinced in Ventoso's case too although video evidence did not exist to prove that) and it is being used to push an agenda.
I CAN see that discs are an added danger in bunch racing, where multi rider pileups are not uncommon.
I CANNOT agree that discs have no benefits - that just rubbish, they are a huge benefit to braking.
Whether those benefits outweigh the weight penalty in pro-racing I cant say, and I dont know that anyone can for sure. Having said that, as I understand it with the minimum weight there may not be much if any weight penalty these days.
There is some merit in the riders concerns over extra danger - but we see here and with so many other crashes that there are alot of very serious dangers already. Whether the added danger of discs is significant in comparison is not for me to say, but I doubt it.
I stand with the riders. You stand with the profiteers. That's fine, but don't try and dress it up as something it's not.
If the pros decide they want them, then fair enough. But for you to think your opinion is above Owain Doull's is f***ing arrogant.Twitter: @RichN950 -
I dont stand with either side. I stand with the truth.
And the truth is that Owain Doull was wrong today. Thats not my opinion, as you suggest, its the truth, backed up by physical and conclusive evidence. Doulls testimony today, by his own quotes, is based on pure conjecture - maybe logical conjecture based on what he knew and thought at the time but nonetheless conjecture without any facts and that has subsequently proven to be wrong.
If he said that grass was blue and I showed a photo to prove him wrong, would that be arrogant too?0 -
Nonsense. It's the only thing you've posted about on this forum.apreading wrote:I dont stand with either side.
If the pros don't want they, they shouldn't be there. Regardless of you You Tube videos and your 'truth'
And thinking you know more about what happened than Doull is absolutely arrogant.
And here's some blue grass. There's quite a lot of blue grass.
Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
Nonsense. It's the only thing you've posted about on this forum.apreading wrote:I dont stand with either side.
If the pros don't want they, they shouldn't be there. Regardless of you You Tube videos and your 'truth'
And thinking you know more about what happened than Doull is absolutely arrogant.
And here's some blue grass. There's quite a lot of blue grass.
Eh? I have posted about lots of things on this forum. Not as much as you but nearly 4000 times.
Your second line just shows general contempt so we will leave that there.
And yes, armed with physical footage of the incident I do know more about what happened than Doull who didnt have the advantage of that footage and he agrees with me "“I’m not too sure how the crash happened, it’s always going to be sketchy in a sprint,” he said. Nothing arrogant about that at all - how many times do we have to go around this?
OK - you shared a photo that proved me wrong about the grass. I accept that evidence and I am not bitter about it in the way you are about the fact that I shared a video that proved Doull and you wrong.
Fair enough - if you wont listen to reason and admit when you are wrong, I will stop replying to you on this post. But I stand by what I see and what I said and that is not arrogant at all. The only arrogance is yours for denying what is proven beyond a doubt because it doesnt fit your agenda just because I am not a pro cyclist. I am sure you are a far better cyclist than I am or have ever been. I am quite certain that Doull is. That doesnt make him or you right in the face of contradictory evidence though.0 -
Some people care about disc brakes way too much!0
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stretchy wrote:Some people care about disc brakes way too much!
Some people care that people care too much too.0 -
SmoggySteve wrote:stretchy wrote:Some people care about disc brakes way too much!
Some people care that people care too much too.
Touchy :roll:0 -
RichN95 wrote:But riders are being pushed onto them by sponsors.
I'm genuinely interested to see the evidence that backs this up. I've often heard it said on here but I've not yet seen any evidence of it being the case.
In the peloton, there seem to be plenty of examples of riders using "non-sponsor" kit. Castelli even made a marketing push by selling Gabba with a black Sharpie to blank out the Castelli logos. Any review of the riders' bikes highlights these examples.
Pro cyclists do more than most professional athletes to make themselves competitive - legally or illegally.
And then they'll abandon that because the sponsor asks them to ride a certain bike? Or put themselves and other riders in significant harm's way?
If it's true in cycling, then cycling is exceptional in pro sport.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
stretchy wrote:SmoggySteve wrote:stretchy wrote:Some people care about disc brakes way too much!
Some people care that people care too much too.
Touchy :roll:
Feely :?0 -
People have to realise this thread is now nearly 40 pages long arguing about a subject which effects 0.1% of the people here. Does it honestly matter either way what a pro rider uses? They have restrictions on more ways than brakes. The trickle down effect of the tech is already there and has been for years long before road bikes began appearing with them, they ain't going to get any cheaper just cos a pro has them. In fact probably the polar opposite! Just go out and ride your bike as you did yesterday and the day before ..,,,,0
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bobmcstuff wrote:I figured climbing at 15kmh and descending at 80kmh would be a bit tough - unless you could do 25rpm to 300rpm!
time to bring back Lance Armstrong then ... he could do it
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RichN95 wrote:
And thinking you know more about what happened than Doull is absolutely arrogant.
No it's not. Have you ever been in a bike crash in a race? You have an idea of what happened, but it's quite common to have no idea how you got specific injuries. Doull has very clearly said he thinks the damage to his shoe and foot was done by Kittel's disc rotor, but it's now equally clear that he is mistaken and the more likely cause was the barrier he hit at approx 50 km/h.
I still think discs should not be allowed into the pro peloton until they have rounded edges and a cover over the rotor for what it's worth, but pro riders seem to be pushing their agenda that discs are dangerous in crashes even when all the evidence in two high profile incidents so far debunk this view.0 -
SmoggySteve wrote:...Does it honestly matter either way what a pro rider uses?...
To some people. Apparently.Ben
Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
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Discs matter because they reveal something deeper about the sport, a bit like Ranieri’s sacking says something uncomplimentary about football.
Of course you have those for and against on technical and racing grounds, which is normal, but the more interesting question is why does the UCI repeatedly override the wishes of riders not to have disc brakes until safety is improved?
The answer is clear but not very palatable. We need not even consider why riders and their expert advisers don’t want discs; it’s indictment enough that this technology is being pushed on them from above.
It’s silly to pretend that the distant aerial footage of Doull’s crash says anything conclusive. I once had my finger sliced open in mid-air by the cassette of the crashing bicycle in front of me, though no-one could say precisely how that happened (as proven by cassette- and tooth- spaced oil marks in and around the main wounds). Unintuitive things happen in high-speed crashes.0
