Disc brakes in the Pro ranks.
Comments
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SmoggySteve wrote:Does it honestly matter either way what a pro rider uses?
No!0 -
andyp wrote:
I still think discs should not be allowed into the pro peloton until they have rounded edges
And that is such a technological barrier that everyone in the industry are scratching their heads... I thought the rounding had been already done ages ago, when the first accident happened last year... it really is not rocket scienceleft the forum March 20230 -
meanredspider wrote:RichN95 wrote:But riders are being pushed onto them by sponsors.
I'm genuinely interested to see the evidence that backs this up. I've often heard it said on here but I've not yet seen any evidence of it being the case.
In the peloton, there seem to be plenty of examples of riders using "non-sponsor" kit. Castelli even made a marketing push by selling Gabba with a black Sharpie to blank out the Castelli logos. Any review of the riders' bikes highlights these examples.
Pro cyclists do more than most professional athletes to make themselves competitive - legally or illegally.
And then they'll abandon that because the sponsor asks them to ride a certain bike? Or put themselves and other riders in significant harm's way?
If it's true in cycling, then cycling is exceptional in pro sport.
You've used this argument before, I and have disagreed with it before.
You're over-estimating the performance difference in kit, and under-estimating what motivates riders to ride (clue, it's the pay cheque).
It's also not unique to cycling. Look at any proper professional sport that is reliant on retail spec kit.0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:andyp wrote:
I still think discs should not be allowed into the pro peloton until they have rounded edges
And that is such a technological barrier that everyone in the industry are scratching their heads... I thought the rounding had been already done ages ago, when the first accident happened last year... it really is not rocket science
Rounded rotors are required, here is Hope's version:
Ventoso wasn't cut by a rotor. Doull's shoe wasn't cut by a rotor. Whether they should or shouldn't be in the peloton I don't really care but there are so many clueless individuals (not aimed at yourself, general point) giving opinions on disc brakes it isn't surprising that there is a backlash on forums from those who do use them.SmoggySteve wrote:Does it honestly matter either way what a pro rider uses?
Yes. Many Sportives, amateur racing, Gran Fondos and possibly even clubs take the lead from the UCI and pro racing when it comes to equipment and safety. Banning disc brakes in pro-racing can have an effect at every level of the sport/activity. If you don't want to discuss them in pro racing (the thread title is pretty specific and it hasn't gone off-topic) then don't post in the thread.0 -
If we ban disc brakes we can save the NHS £350m a week on disc brake related injuries*
*may not actually be true, but, you know....0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:meanredspider wrote:RichN95 wrote:But riders are being pushed onto them by sponsors.
I'm genuinely interested to see the evidence that backs this up. I've often heard it said on here but I've not yet seen any evidence of it being the case.
In the peloton, there seem to be plenty of examples of riders using "non-sponsor" kit. Castelli even made a marketing push by selling Gabba with a black Sharpie to blank out the Castelli logos. Any review of the riders' bikes highlights these examples.
Pro cyclists do more than most professional athletes to make themselves competitive - legally or illegally.
And then they'll abandon that because the sponsor asks them to ride a certain bike? Or put themselves and other riders in significant harm's way?
If it's true in cycling, then cycling is exceptional in pro sport.
You've used this argument before, I and have disagreed with it before.
You're over-estimating the performance difference in kit, and under-estimating what motivates riders to ride (clue, it's the pay cheque).
It's also not unique to cycling. Look at any proper professional sport that is reliant on retail spec kit.
You've disagreed with it but I've not seen any evidence that riders are forced to use the sponsors' kit. In fact, quite the opposite as regularly documented. I've also, in the many autobiographies I've read not heard a single rider complain that they were forced to use kit A or B. So, as things stand, there's loads of evidence that riders get to adapt and pick the kit they are given and very little (none?) that they are forced to use things they don't want to. All I'm asking is for the evidence.
It's a little like this Doull thing - he made a claim without supporting evidence. Given the (other) injuries he sustained, that strikes me as strange. The evidence from the beginning pointed in another direction.
Also, given how dangerous those barriers look in the pictures, and yet there seems to be little concern on here about that, it strikes me as there is definitely double-standards.
I honestly don't care if disc brakes are banned in the pro peloton. What I am posting about is the BS that's posted.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
RichN95 wrote:...But for you to think your opinion is above Owain Doull's is f***ing arrogant.
This is just ridiculous. They crashed at the 1km banner on a sprint stage. Doull was likely maxed out on heart rate, travelling at 50+kph, squashed in the bunch in what is probably the most stressful and high-pressure situation in pro cycling. The chances of him having any clue what caused the damage to him are tiny. Likely the last thing he remembers before hitting the deck/barriers is locking bars with Kittel. It's not unreasonable that he assumed a disc had something to do with the cut on his shoe/foot, but it is clear from the video that the inside of his left foot never went anywhere near Kittel's rotors in that crash.0 -
If the sponsors are so desperate to push disc brakes on the riders why is it that three of the biggest names in cycling, Boonen, Sagan and Kittel, are the only riders on them? They are three riders who could very easily say no if they wanted to. If sponsors were pushing discs so zealously then I think it's fair to say you'd expect them to be forcing the domestiques to ride them as well.0
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Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:Whether they should or shouldn't be in the peloton I don't really care but there are so many clueless individuals (not aimed at yourself, general point) giving opinions on disc brakes it isn't surprising that there is a backlash on forums from those who do use them.
Spot on. You've put this much better than me.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
It would be interesting to see them in action in the grand tours... any other race they make no difference, but they MIGHT make a difference coming down the big descents, as well as they might not...
In any case, the only way to conquer the skeptics is IF they prove to be better at the Tour... in which case they will all be on board in no timeleft the forum March 20230 -
Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:If the sponsors are so desperate to push disc brakes on the riders why is it that three of the biggest names in cycling, Boonen, Sagan and Kittel, are the only riders on them? They are three riders who could very easily say no if they wanted to. If sponsors were pushing discs so zealously then I think it's fair to say you'd expect them to be forcing the domestiques to ride them as well.
That is actually an interesting question. If the manufacturers really want to push discs sooo much and can so easily force tech on the riders, then why dont they suddenly have everyone on them the moment the UCI allowed it?
Having said that, I seem to recall Cav riding a Specialized Venge a couple of years ago that he said he hated? Although that may have been in the heat of the moment.
I am pretty sure that kit makers paying the wages and sponsoring/running the teams could force kit on the riders and probably do at times but it seems that at times they dont exercise that ability. I dont know why.
Makes your question interesting - why dont they force all the riders to use them? Why is the adoption so slow if they are able to?
Didnt the riders protest and even strike against the use of helmets back in the 90s?0 -
no disc for kittel today http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/rac ... two-3151290
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Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:If the sponsors are so desperate to push disc brakes on the riders why is it that three of the biggest names in cycling, Boonen, Sagan and Kittel, are the only riders on them? They are three riders who could very easily say no if they wanted to. If sponsors were pushing discs so zealously then I think it's fair to say you'd expect them to be forcing the domestiques to ride them as well.
Sagan isn't racing on them - he had a Bike that he was using in training pre-Tour down Under / in photo ops, that had them.
Likely a big chunk of Sagan's pay at Bora is dependent on Specialized's sponsorship $$$ so it's possible sponsor requirements do play a part in what pros ride (or promote).0 -
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The CPA said that the UCI is not listening to the riders’ feedback. It conducted a poll and Hansen said showed 40 per cent of professional riders are completely against using disc brakes, 40 per cent are against them until better safety measures are adopted, and 16% want to keep using them.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/rac ... day-315119"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
The helmet point is interesting, iirc, pro riders were against enforcement, even Armstrong who had lost a mate can be seen not wearing a safety helmet until they were made compulsory. I wonder how many pros would ride helmetless now if given the choice... I also wonder if in 5, 10 years will we look back at these discussions and think how stupid we were for not using disc brakes.
Also, discs for the pro's does effect every road bike user. The obvious and immediate effect is for riders taking part in uci Reg events and this can include sportives in Europe. The other effect, when the pro's do adopt, this will surely speed up the technological advances of disc brakes on road bikes, so we will all benefit.0 -
Ah ok, I thought he was racing on it too.YorkshireRaw wrote:Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:If the sponsors are so desperate to push disc brakes on the riders why is it that three of the biggest names in cycling, Boonen, Sagan and Kittel, are the only riders on them? They are three riders who could very easily say no if they wanted to. If sponsors were pushing discs so zealously then I think it's fair to say you'd expect them to be forcing the domestiques to ride them as well.
Sagan isn't racing on them - he had a Bike that he was using in training pre-Tour down Under / in photo ops, that had them.
Likely a big chunk of Sagan's pay at Bora is dependent on Specialized's sponsorship $$$ so it's possible sponsor requirements do play a part in what pros ride (or promote).
There will no doubt be requirements, I seem to remember one of the group set makers insisting teams ride their full group which led to teams dropping them and buying parts as they could make it up with other sponsors. But it still doesn't make sense to have only two riders on disc brakes which means teams carrying extra wheels, not being able to take a spare from a team-mate, possibly waiting for the right neutral service etc. If they were forcing it then I'm pretty sure there would be a lot more riders on discs, even if it were just within one team.
Interestingly, it's probably also the reason many pro bikes don't hit that magic 6.8kg weight limit as they are restricted to what parts they can use. Anyone could build up pretty much any high-end carbon frame to be under 6.8kg these days, but only with access to lots of different manufacturers that teams can't use.0 -
meanredspider wrote:Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:Whether they should or shouldn't be in the peloton I don't really care but there are so many clueless individuals (not aimed at yourself, general point) giving opinions on disc brakes it isn't surprising that there is a backlash on forums from those who do use them.
Spot on. You've put this much better than me.
Thanks. It's really frustrating to see the same old, tired arguments that have been shown to be wrong or clearly inaccurate comments from people who have stuck their flag in the ground long ago repeated over and over. I'm pretty sure any reasonable person would, had it been shown Doull's shoe damage/injury was caused by a rotor, agree they should be removed from the peloton straight away. Yet, for some reason, when someone shows that actually no, it was definitely not caused by a rotor, the cause becomes irrelevant. All these people shouting about rider safety and here we had an example of a rider getting off very lucky and no-one seems to care what actually was the cause. Yet those defending disc brakes in this case are the ones with an agenda...0 -
Who has shown this? Are you referring to the VeloNews cutting-test video? If so, what do you think would happen if you gently rubbed a shoe against a crash barrier? That test was useless – like most of the armchair speculation about the physics of crashes and disc brakes.Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:Yet, for some reason, when someone shows that actually no, it was definitely not caused by a rotor, the cause becomes irrelevant.0 -
OnYourRight wrote:
Who has shown this? Are you referring to the VeloNews cutting-test video? If so, what do you think would happen if you gently rubbed a shoe against a crash barrier? That test was useless – like most of the armchair speculation about the physics of crashes and disc brakes.Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:Yet, for some reason, when someone shows that actually no, it was definitely not caused by a rotor, the cause becomes irrelevant.
Please read the thread and look at apreading's breakdown of the video from the incident. While looking at it remember that it was the inside left of his left shoe that was cut. Doull was in the barrier and down before Kittel came off his bike with at least a metre if not 2 between them. Kittel then slides up the road with his bike far away from Doull. For one of Kittel's rotors to have cut Doull's shoe he would have had to unclip his foot and stick it under his own bike, through to Kittel's bike while they were next to each other. Even if that had happened the cut produced would run perpendicular (or at least a sharp angle) to the actual cut on the shoe. There is no way it was caused by Kittel's rotor.
You'll also not I haven't claimed it was a barrier so I'd appreciate it if you didn't try and imply that is what I think.0 -
Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:meanredspider wrote:Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:Whether they should or shouldn't be in the peloton I don't really care but there are so many clueless individuals (not aimed at yourself, general point) giving opinions on disc brakes it isn't surprising that there is a backlash on forums from those who do use them.
Spot on. You've put this much better than me.
Thanks. It's really frustrating to see the same old, tired arguments that have been shown to be wrong or clearly inaccurate comments from people who have stuck their flag in the ground long ago repeated over and over. I'm pretty sure any reasonable person would, had it been shown Doull's shoe damage/injury was caused by a rotor, agree they should be removed from the peloton straight away. Yet, for some reason, when someone shows that actually no, it was definitely not caused by a rotor, the cause becomes irrelevant. All these people shouting about rider safety and here we had an example of a rider getting off very lucky and no-one seems to care what actually was the cause. Yet those defending disc brakes in this case are the ones with an agenda...
Wow. You must be getting quite a nose bleed sat up there on your extremely high horse. You obviously only value your own opinion and have shut your eyes and ears to anyone who may have a counter argument to yours. Until you learn that this is an OPEN forum then wind your neck right back in0 -
I've got to admit. I'm really struggling to see how that was caused by Kittel's bike having seen that frame by frame breakdown.Napoleon, don't be jealous that I've been chatting online with babes all day. Besides, we both know that I'm training to be a cage fighter.0
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SmoggySteve wrote:Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:meanredspider wrote:Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:Whether they should or shouldn't be in the peloton I don't really care but there are so many clueless individuals (not aimed at yourself, general point) giving opinions on disc brakes it isn't surprising that there is a backlash on forums from those who do use them.
Spot on. You've put this much better than me.
Thanks. It's really frustrating to see the same old, tired arguments that have been shown to be wrong or clearly inaccurate comments from people who have stuck their flag in the ground long ago repeated over and over. I'm pretty sure any reasonable person would, had it been shown Doull's shoe damage/injury was caused by a rotor, agree they should be removed from the peloton straight away. Yet, for some reason, when someone shows that actually no, it was definitely not caused by a rotor, the cause becomes irrelevant. All these people shouting about rider safety and here we had an example of a rider getting off very lucky and no-one seems to care what actually was the cause. Yet those defending disc brakes in this case are the ones with an agenda...
Wow. You must be getting quite a nose bleed sat up there on your extremely high horse. You obviously only value your own opinion and have shut your eyes and ears to anyone who may have a counter argument to yours. Until you learn that this is an OPEN forum then wind your neck right back in
I thought you didn't care about the topic of this thread?
It's not my argument, apreading presented the photos and I agreed with the assessment. If you have a counter-argument other than "nu-urr" feel free to make it. I'm assuming because of the non-sequitur that you don't have one though?0 -
Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. Too many pics are inconclusive. TBH it probably isn't but they still have to side with caution until it's clarified. The issue is more how safe are the riders feeling right with them there. It's reasonable to say the majority feel uneasy about them. I'm sure anyone else here would be concerned if a possibly unsafe practise was brought into their place of work without their consultation and expected to get on with it. Sportives, amateur racing may feela knock on but hey it's voluntary and you can easily just beg steal borrow another bike if you really want to take part. When it's your livelihood and unless you're a top rider pay is pretty pish you are stuck in a difficult position0
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I disagree that they are inconclusive, I would say the photo breakdown is very conclusive.
Everything else we actually agree on. I do think it should be up to the parties involved, I think they should all be listened to and I think that we, the fans, should accept what they decide for their situation. Similar to this I'm a strong proponent for racer lead bad weather decisions. I think those conversations should be honest, and that's why I get bothered by people repeating old arguments that have been shown to be false, but I'm completely open to new arguments and discussion. Like I said, if it were shown it was a rotor I would be for an outright ban until full, stress-tested covers were introduced (or just an outright ban).0 -
Ah, the blurry aerial footage. I was hoping I’d missed a whole new branch of speculation on Twitter.Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:Please read the thread and look at apreading's breakdown of the video from the incident.
I never did. Was just pointing out how useless the VeloNews test was.Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:You'll also not I haven't claimed it was a barrier so I'd appreciate it if you didn't try and imply that is what I think.
If (if) not the disc or the barrier, what do you think sliced open Doull’s shoe? I can’t remember seeing a cut like that before from a cycling crash.0 -
Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:
Yes. Many Sportives, amateur racing, Gran Fondos and possibly even clubs take the lead from the UCI and pro racing when it comes to equipment and safety. Banning disc brakes in pro-racing can have an effect at every level of the sport/activity. If you don't want to discuss them in pro racing (the thread title is pretty specific and it hasn't gone off-topic) then don't post in the thread.
That is also why more caution is needed rather than rushing to please bike companies wanting to sell more kit. It is pretty clear most pros are reluctant to change to disc brakes and adoption is meeting a lot of resistance however the same view is common amongst amateur racers too. If the pros get railroaded into using them then that will have a knock on impact. It's not about being luddites resistant to change and holding a position from a point of ignorance - a lot of racers will happily use them on their commuters, mountain/cx bikes and discs are now pretty common on winter club runs. They see and experience the benefits in certain applications, bunch racing is different however.
With amateurs it is not just the potential safety issue like it is for pros but there are other considerations too. Slightly better braking isn't worth the downsides (added cost, weight, complexity, aero, neutral service etc) when rim brakes are already good enough for purpose and they already have a race bike and wheels.Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:Whether they should or shouldn't be in the peloton I don't really care but there are so many clueless individuals (not aimed at yourself, general point) giving opinions on disc brakes it isn't surprising that there is a backlash on forums from those who do use them.
Most of the backlash is coming from riders that don't race and who are wanting to force their choice of bike on those that do, whether it be pro or amateur level.0 -
Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:SmoggySteve wrote:Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:meanredspider wrote:Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:Whether they should or shouldn't be in the peloton I don't really care but there are so many clueless individuals (not aimed at yourself, general point) giving opinions on disc brakes it isn't surprising that there is a backlash on forums from those who do use them.
Spot on. You've put this much better than me.
Thanks. It's really frustrating to see the same old, tired arguments that have been shown to be wrong or clearly inaccurate comments from people who have stuck their flag in the ground long ago repeated over and over. I'm pretty sure any reasonable person would, had it been shown Doull's shoe damage/injury was caused by a rotor, agree they should be removed from the peloton straight away. Yet, for some reason, when someone shows that actually no, it was definitely not caused by a rotor, the cause becomes irrelevant. All these people shouting about rider safety and here we had an example of a rider getting off very lucky and no-one seems to care what actually was the cause. Yet those defending disc brakes in this case are the ones with an agenda...
Wow. You must be getting quite a nose bleed sat up there on your extremely high horse. You obviously only value your own opinion and have shut your eyes and ears to anyone who may have a counter argument to yours. Until you learn that this is an OPEN forum then wind your neck right back in
I thought you didn't care about the topic of this thread?
It's not my argument, apreading presented the photos and I agreed with the assessment. If you have a counter-argument other than "nu-urr" feel free to make it. I'm assuming because of the non-sequitur that you don't have one though?
The subject matter is immaterial . It's people attitude of thinking they can talk down to others. Not sure who exactly they think they are.0 -
OnYourRight wrote:If (if) not the disc or the barrier, what do you think sliced open Doull’s shoe? I can’t remember seeing a cut like that before from a cycling crash.
If it weren't for the disc hysteria, I doubt anybody would have commented on the shoe. Doull's bleeding butt is hanging out of his shorts.
Personally I think it's 95% certain it was the barrier. The damage and marks on the shoe and his sock are exactly what I'd expect to see. But that's just an opinion. Those barrier feet don't look too clever.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
OnYourRight wrote:
Ah, the blurry aerial footage. I was hoping I’d missed a whole new branch of speculation on Twitter.Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:Please read the thread and look at apreading's breakdown of the video from the incident.
I never did. Was just pointing out how useless the VeloNews test was.Hinaultscrapcousin wrote:You'll also not I haven't claimed it was a barrier so I'd appreciate it if you didn't try and imply that is what I think.
If (if) not the disc or the barrier, what do you think sliced open Doull’s shoe? I can’t remember seeing a cut like that before from a cycling crash.
I don't know what VeloNews test you are referring to?
Yes, the same footage, backed up by both Kittel and Doull's position on the road after the fall. Doull hit that barrier hard before Kittel crashed.
I have no idea what cut his shoe. I know it wasn't a rotor based on all the available evidence. The same way I I don't know what cut Ventoso's knee, except that it wasn't a rotor.
We have no idea what damage has been caused in all previous crashes so it's unsurprising that you can't remember seeing anything like that as it's very unlikely it would get mentioned. It's possible it has never happened as well. It was mentioned in this race specifically because Doull claimed it was a rotor. If the same thing had happened and there were no disc-brake equipped bikes in the peloton I doubt we would even know about it.0
