Disc brakes in the Pro ranks.

ugo.santalucia

RichN95 wrote:

They are paid... do you do what you want at work or you are forced to compromise?

I expect a certain level of health and safety though. You seem to have the attitudes to employees of a 19th century industrialist.

We all agreed already that they have to be made safer, I thought this was a given and it's not rocket science

ugo.santalucia

Mechanism wrote:

Would you say that clincher tyre development has been held back by their limited use in professional racing?

Tubeless has... and they are clinchers, so yes...

RichN95.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

They are paid... do you do what you want at work or you are forced to compromise?

I expect a certain level of health and safety though. You seem to have the attitudes to employees of a 19th century industrialist.

We all agreed already that they have to be made safer, I thought this was a given and it's not rocket science

And no-one is saying ban them forever. Just that they should be shelved until suitable for road racing. Once they are made such that the CEO of Shimano is prepared to touch the edge of a spinning disk with his finger, then they're ready.

ugo.santalucia

RichN95 wrote:

And no-one is saying ban them forever.

the riders are saying just that, in their notoriously short sighted way of looking at the industry

gweeds

ugo.santalucia wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

And no-one is saying ban them forever.

the riders are saying just that, in their notoriously short sighted way of looking at the industry

Why should they 'look at the industry'?

They're paid to ride, not take long-term positions on tech.

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

And no-one is saying ban them forever.

the riders are saying just that, in their notoriously short sighted way of looking at the industry

Why should they 'look at the industry'?

They're paid to ride, not take long-term positions on tech.

Why not? They have 1-2 years contracts, it's all very uncertain, which means they have to make sure the industry is sustainable, if they want to have a long term future.

Back to Ventoso, I join the brigade who thinks how can this be the result of a disc brake and more importantly how can you not notice it immediately?

gweeds

And how does the pro peloton not using discs suddenly make the industry unsustainable.

It's a straw man.

ugo.santalucia

Gweeds wrote:

And how does the pro peloton not using discs suddenly make the industry unsustainable.

It's a straw man.

I explained one or two pages back

tailwindhome

RichN95 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

They are paid... do you do what you want at work or you are forced to compromise?

I expect a certain level of health and safety though. You seem to have the attitudes to employees of a 19th century industrialist.

We all agreed already that they have to be made safer, I thought this was a given and it's not rocket science

And no-one is saying ban them forever. Just that they should be shelved until suitable for road racing. Once they are made such that the CEO of Shimano is prepared to touch the edge of a spinning disk with his finger, then they're ready.

Spokes, Cranksets and Cassettes would never have cleared that test.....

No_Ta_Doctor

Sod the pros, what about the club riders?
As Ugo (and others) mentioned, he's got far more out of his rims than he would have done with calipers. But if discs are too dangerous for pro racing, then surely they're too dangerous for amateur/lower level bunch races as well?

I'm not personally faffed about what the pros ride, but disc breaks have huge advantages for others.

This isn't a technologically insurmountable obstacle. As others have mentioned, they could mill the edges and stop cutting teeth in them for starters, or go the whole way and make a 3/4 circle carbon aero sheath that just sat on the axle like a washer. Cover pretty much the whole thing, stick some branding on it, sell it as aero, bam.

DeVlaeminck

prawny wrote:

Discs are a lot better than Alu rims wet or dry. And my discs are pretty shoddy.

What discs do you have ? I've only tried semi hydro but I wouldn't say they are any better than rim calipers on an alloy rim and they have several disadvantages to set against the only real advantage which is rim life. I know people say full hydro are better but then people told me the semi hydro were better too ! Actually thinking about it I have tried cable discs on a cross bike and they were awful - worse than cantis.

prawny

I've got tektro miras on my road bike and shimano summatorothers on my MTB.

The Miras are bottom rung, cheap as chips cable discs that aren't even for sale as an aftermarket item. They're still way better than any rim brakes I've ever had on a road bike, up there with V brakes. I have had worse disks than these though, cable and hydro. But not for a few years. The ones on my MTB are similar in performance just much easier to deal with because they're hydraulic, I can't wait to get hydros on the road bike too.

ugo.santalucia

No tA Doctor wrote:

Sod the pros, what about the club riders?
As Ugo (and others) mentioned, he's got far more out of his rims than he would have done with calipers.

And bear in mind I run (posh) alloy rims and do the rim replacement job myself.

For someone who buys the full wheel and maybe fancies branded carbon, the savings can be life changing...

disgruntledgoat

ugo.santalucia wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Sod the pros, what about the club riders?
As Ugo (and others) mentioned, he's got far more out of his rims than he would have done with calipers.

And bear in mind I run (posh) alloy rims and do the rim replacement job myself.

For someone who buys the full wheel and maybe fancies branded carbon, the savings can be life changing...

Life changing, you say?

ugo.santalucia

disgruntledgoat wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

Sod the pros, what about the club riders?
As Ugo (and others) mentioned, he's got far more out of his rims than he would have done with calipers.

And bear in mind I run (posh) alloy rims and do the rim replacement job myself.

For someone who buys the full wheel and maybe fancies branded carbon, the savings can be life changing...

Life changing, you say?

There are folks who spend 2 grand on a pair of wheels. Do it every year for 5 years and its a big fat lump of money... obviously the same people would probably buy new wheels anyway, as it's more about the purchase then it is about the cycling, but that's another story

Nick Payne

Quite nice that my HED plus rims, which are two years old are in fact brand new... they've done nearly 15,000 miles, I suspect I would have gone through 2 sets of them already, at an extra cost of about half a grand.
If you do the miles, discs make total sense

Depends on the climate. We live in a dry climate here (Canberra), and the bike on which I commuted for the last ten years before I retired still has the original rims that it came with (Araya red label, about the same section and weight as Mavic Open Pro). At ~125km/week of commuting for 48 weeks a year, that works out at around 60,000km. Even on our touring tandem, where the brakes have to cope with two riders plus touring load (about 400lbs in all), the rims still lasted around 25,000km before they needed replacing.

Disks on road bikes are a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist. The manufacturers would sure as shit like to convince you otherwise, though.

Alex99

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Gweeds wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

And no-one is saying ban them forever.

the riders are saying just that, in their notoriously short sighted way of looking at the industry

Why should they 'look at the industry'?

They're paid to ride, not take long-term positions on tech.

Why not? They have 1-2 years contracts, it's all very uncertain, which means they have to make sure the industry is sustainable, if they want to have a long term future.

Back to Ventoso, I join the brigade who thinks how can this be the result of a disc brake and more importantly how can you not notice it immediately?

It's hard to see how really, but I came off as as young lad and put a gash across my left knee which needed 7 stitches. I didn't notice it intially until I had sat up and my fingers went into the hole in my knee. Weird, it really didn't hurt until that point.

Alex99

ugo.santalucia wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

They are paid... do you do what you want at work or you are forced to compromise?

I expect a certain level of health and safety though. You seem to have the attitudes to employees of a 19th century industrialist.

We all agreed already that they have to be made safer, I thought this was a given and it's not rocket science

I wonder how many pro riders are injured as a result of losing the back or front wheel on wet descents as a results of poor or unpredictable brake modulation on carbon rims?

I cannot say that road disc brakes offer no additional risk because I don't know for sure, but it does seem to be a diversion from the real risks that the racing cyclist deals with.

markhewitt1978

ugo.santalucia wrote:

They are paid... do you do what you want at work or you are forced to compromise?

I was stating a situation, I have no argument one way or another unlike what you seem to think.

Rodrego Hernandez

Discs dont solve any problems in pro racing. for commuting, winter riding, general riding then fair enough, use them and I expect you'll be happy.

In a racing situation, they don't solve any problems. the weak spot in braking is the tyre, not the braking surface.

dodgy

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

In a racing situation, they don't solve any problems. the weak spot in braking is the tyre, not the braking surface.

Most of the time, maybe.

ugo.santalucia

Nick Payne wrote:

Disks on road bikes are a solution looking for a problem that doesn't exist. The manufacturers would sure as shoot like to convince you otherwise, though.

Yeah, but you represent a minority... certainly on this forum... if you live at the border of a desert I'd say you are the odd one.

I have built several hundred wheels in my brief spell as wheel builder... IME the average life span of an alloy rim in the south east of England, which is considered semi-arid, is about 6 thousand miles, which is less than one year worth of riding for me. That is probably due to a combination of poor maintenance, dirt on the roads, lightweight rims and it can certainly be increased, but it is the realistic average, like it or not.

kleinstroker

OK, so I've just invented something really hi-tech, it's called a disc brake fairing TM, (think small frisbee with a hole in the middle) and it goes over your disc brakes so they are covered at all times and simply slots over the axle.

That should do away with any concerns about disc brakes being safe to use, and it only took 10 seconds to come up with the idea.

markhewitt1978

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I have built several hundred wheels in my brief spell as wheel builder... IME the average life span of an alloy rim in the south east of England, which is considered semi-arid, is about 6 thousand miles, which is less than one year worth of riding for me. That is probably due to a combination of poor maintenance, dirt on the roads, lightweight rims and it can certainly be increased, but it is the realistic average, like it or not.

Having the braking surface as an integral part of the wheel is definitely an issue and having your braking surface decoupled from that is a big plus for those of us who have to pay for our own kit.

Pro riders get their kit for free so they can have a new rim every race and I'm sure some do.

apreading

kleinstroker wrote:

OK, so I've just invented something really hi-tech, it's called a disc brake fairing TM, (think small frisbee with a hole in the middle) and it goes over your disc brakes so they are covered at all times and simply slots over the axle.

That should do away with any concerns about disc brakes being safe to use, and it only took 10 seconds to come up with the idea.

The key to engineering this is to do it in a way which does not affect heat loss and end up with the temps rising and causing overheating. So the fairing would need to be as 'open' as possible, at least on the sides, just covering the edges but still strong enough to not deform or break.

ugo.santalucia

Alex99 wrote:

It's hard to see how really, but I came off as as young lad and put a gash across my left knee which needed 7 stitches. I didn't notice it intially until I had sat up and my fingers went into the hole in my knee. Weird, it really didn't hurt until that point.

He didn't notice it, but he is quick to point his finger to a disc brake, when in fact the shape of the cut is inconsistent with his story. Sounds like over-reaction to me...

either way, those edges need to be rounded, that seems obvious, Ventoso or not

apreading

Pictures seem to show it as a horseshoe shape - not sure how this could be a disc cut?

Rounded edges a no brainer though - its actually hard to understand why they werent always like that, when you think about it.

Alex99

dodgy wrote:

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

In a racing situation, they don't solve any problems. the weak spot in braking is the tyre, not the braking surface.

Most of the time, maybe.

Brake performace (modulation) and tyre grip can't be de-coupled. Tyres will give up grip when there is a spike in force e.g. when a wet rim brake 'decides' that it's going to grab.

I would think the most relevant racing situation is descending in the wet, where we always see riders wiping out whilst other riders carrying on around the same bend without issue.

Alex99

apreading wrote:

kleinstroker wrote:

OK, so I've just invented something really hi-tech, it's called a disc brake fairing TM, (think small frisbee with a hole in the middle) and it goes over your disc brakes so they are covered at all times and simply slots over the axle.

That should do away with any concerns about disc brakes being safe to use, and it only took 10 seconds to come up with the idea.

The key to engineering this is to do it in a way which does not affect heat loss and end up with the temps rising and causing overheating. So the fairing would need to be as 'open' as possible, at least on the sides, just covering the edges but still strong enough to not deform or break.

Needs to allow the wheel in and out easily too. Consider, there are many, many things that could be done to make bikes less 'spikey', and many things to make bike racing safer.

markhewitt1978

I think it's one of those things that we accept what is there now. If exposed chainrings were being brought in now there would likely be an outcry about having 'saw blades' on every bike.