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I will withdraw my remark and apologise. 😆TheBigBean said:
Brian, the thread police representative, posted in this thread, so I assumed it was ok.secretsqirrel said:
Anyway how did this topic jump from the tory thread?0 -
Similar to my post upthread. Maybe I'm a labour leader in the making.kingstongraham said:Anyway, here's Labour's answer to not solve this incredibly difficult problem.
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But it would be silly to become complacent about that and find things going backwards so isn't it better to flag things before that happens?TheBigBean said:
Absolutely, but going completely over the top is unhelpful. UK society is now so much more tolerant than it has ever been.pangolin said:
Surely the point is that you should call out the rhetoric so things never have an opportunity to get to that stage?TheBigBean said:How far away are the Tories from banning interracial marriage? Do they have paramilitaries dishing out street beatings? Are they going to shortly vote parliament out of existence? Are the centrist parties worried about communism? Or is your opinion more than a little over the top?
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Has he been ill recently he looks to have lost a lot of weight and seemed very confused mixing up his words.kingstongraham said:Surely the point is that in sewers like GBNews there is a feeling that the Tories are right, but they are too weak to do anything about it. The Tories aren't what you need to worry about.
And the bloke on the left is so bad at reading the autocue he is funny0 -
Absolutely, but going completely over the top is unhelpful.Pross said:
But it would be silly to become complacent about that and find things going backwards so isn't it better to flag things before that happens?TheBigBean said:
Absolutely, but going completely over the top is unhelpful. UK society is now so much more tolerant than it has ever been.pangolin said:
Surely the point is that you should call out the rhetoric so things never have an opportunity to get to that stage?TheBigBean said:How far away are the Tories from banning interracial marriage? Do they have paramilitaries dishing out street beatings? Are they going to shortly vote parliament out of existence? Are the centrist parties worried about communism? Or is your opinion more than a little over the top?
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At risk of repeating things for the umpteenth time Lineker never mentioned the Holocaust, he was talking about the language being used in Germany prior to the Holocaust. Braverman has done a great job of deflecting this into people regurgitating what she twisted it into him saying which highlights the problem with the UK media.surrey_commuter said:
You come across as somebody who does not realise how uniquely awful the Holocaust was and consequently how inappropriate it is to compare it to a prorogation of Parliament.morstar said:
No, my opinion is not over the top.TheBigBean said:How far away are the Tories from banning interracial marriage? Do they have paramilitaries dishing out street beatings? Are they going to shortly vote parliament out of existence? Are the centrist parties worried about communism? Or is your opinion more than a little over the top?
My opinion is simply that there was no issue with GL’s tweet and that he did not compare Beavermans rhetoric to the holocaust.
He made a cautionary reference as to why language matters.
I am explaining in more detail why that language matters. There is no inevitability of a new holocaust but, there is a pattern of language and behaviour which is not without parallels to dangerous historical precedents and it matters.
We’ve only gone so far down the rabbit hole because some people think the anything relating to the Nazis should never be referenced (for reasons I don’t understand) whereas I think that totally misses the lessons of the Nazis.
If you see the current iteration of the Tory Party as a threat to our democracy and liberal values then why not reach for a comparison with Le Kuan Yew, Franco or Peron.
To compare it in any way to the murder of 6 million jews in an attempt at genocide is wrong.
The Holocaust was unique but even since then we've had Cambodia, Rwanda, Bangladesh, Kurds, The Balkans and numerous other genocides. We may not think it would happen in modern day Western Europe but then a few years ago did we think there'd be a major war between Russia and Ukraine? We don't seem to learn the lessons of the past and taking a view that it will never happen again is ludicrous.3 -
After advocating going into a friendly foreign country and shooting people dead, they then talk about economic suicide with CT increase while both were big advocates of Brexit. It really is breathtaking. GB News, what a channel 😂kingstongraham said:Surely the point is that in sewers like GBNews there is a feeling that the Tories are right, but they are too weak to do anything about it. The Tories aren't what you need to worry about.
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The bit from 5:25 onwards makes it quite incredible that they chose to make this one of the highlights they want focus on. This is what they think people want to hear.0
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Morstar and others have made the point more eloquently than I that what Lineker was warning about is that the Holocaust starts with this sort of rhetoric.Pross said:
At risk of repeating things for the umpteenth time Lineker never mentioned the Holocaust, he was talking about the language being used in Germany prior to the Holocaust. Braverman has done a great job of deflecting this into people regurgitating what she twisted it into him saying which highlights the problem with the UK media.surrey_commuter said:
You come across as somebody who does not realise how uniquely awful the Holocaust was and consequently how inappropriate it is to compare it to a prorogation of Parliament.morstar said:
No, my opinion is not over the top.TheBigBean said:How far away are the Tories from banning interracial marriage? Do they have paramilitaries dishing out street beatings? Are they going to shortly vote parliament out of existence? Are the centrist parties worried about communism? Or is your opinion more than a little over the top?
My opinion is simply that there was no issue with GL’s tweet and that he did not compare Beavermans rhetoric to the holocaust.
He made a cautionary reference as to why language matters.
I am explaining in more detail why that language matters. There is no inevitability of a new holocaust but, there is a pattern of language and behaviour which is not without parallels to dangerous historical precedents and it matters.
We’ve only gone so far down the rabbit hole because some people think the anything relating to the Nazis should never be referenced (for reasons I don’t understand) whereas I think that totally misses the lessons of the Nazis.
If you see the current iteration of the Tory Party as a threat to our democracy and liberal values then why not reach for a comparison with Le Kuan Yew, Franco or Peron.
To compare it in any way to the murder of 6 million jews in an attempt at genocide is wrong.
The Holocaust was unique but even since then we've had Cambodia, Rwanda, Bangladesh, Kurds, The Balkans and numerous other genocides. We may not think it would happen in modern day Western Europe but then a few years ago did we think there'd be a major war between Russia and Ukraine? We don't seem to learn the lessons of the past and taking a view that it will never happen again is ludicrous.
What do you think he perceives the danger to be?
Do you think he fired off the tweet out of fear of too much fiscal expansion? or possibly wasting the defence budget on uniforms by Hugo Boss? maybe he hates Rick and is terrified of the trains running on time? they famously hosted the olympics but us doing that would bring him a bumper payday.
Maybe I am missing something else that the poisonous political events of 1930s Germany is famous for.0 -
I think he's possibly guilty of using too obvious a reference point and the whole Godwin thing but my reading of his (actual) words were that he was comparing it to the fanning the flames of the 'outsiders' coming in taking job and ruining the economy which is pretty similar to the current anti-immigration sentiment. The dire warning that 100 million refugees and asylum seekers are heading here wasn't just a throw away comment. Similar language was used to great success in the Brexit campaign with mention of the millions of Turks that were going to flood the country when the EU let them join. It's stoking fear of 'others' to a) deflect from internal problems of our own making and b) create a mutual enemy to rise up against.surrey_commuter said:
Morstar and others have made the point more eloquently than I that what Lineker was warning about is that the Holocaust starts with this sort of rhetoric.Pross said:
At risk of repeating things for the umpteenth time Lineker never mentioned the Holocaust, he was talking about the language being used in Germany prior to the Holocaust. Braverman has done a great job of deflecting this into people regurgitating what she twisted it into him saying which highlights the problem with the UK media.surrey_commuter said:
You come across as somebody who does not realise how uniquely awful the Holocaust was and consequently how inappropriate it is to compare it to a prorogation of Parliament.morstar said:
No, my opinion is not over the top.TheBigBean said:How far away are the Tories from banning interracial marriage? Do they have paramilitaries dishing out street beatings? Are they going to shortly vote parliament out of existence? Are the centrist parties worried about communism? Or is your opinion more than a little over the top?
My opinion is simply that there was no issue with GL’s tweet and that he did not compare Beavermans rhetoric to the holocaust.
He made a cautionary reference as to why language matters.
I am explaining in more detail why that language matters. There is no inevitability of a new holocaust but, there is a pattern of language and behaviour which is not without parallels to dangerous historical precedents and it matters.
We’ve only gone so far down the rabbit hole because some people think the anything relating to the Nazis should never be referenced (for reasons I don’t understand) whereas I think that totally misses the lessons of the Nazis.
If you see the current iteration of the Tory Party as a threat to our democracy and liberal values then why not reach for a comparison with Le Kuan Yew, Franco or Peron.
To compare it in any way to the murder of 6 million jews in an attempt at genocide is wrong.
The Holocaust was unique but even since then we've had Cambodia, Rwanda, Bangladesh, Kurds, The Balkans and numerous other genocides. We may not think it would happen in modern day Western Europe but then a few years ago did we think there'd be a major war between Russia and Ukraine? We don't seem to learn the lessons of the past and taking a view that it will never happen again is ludicrous.
What do you think he perceives the danger to be?
Do you think he fired off the tweet out of fear of too much fiscal expansion? or possibly wasting the defence budget on uniforms by Hugo Boss? maybe he hates Rick and is terrified of the trains running on time? they famously hosted the olympics but us doing that would bring him a bumper payday.
Maybe I am missing something else that the poisonous political events of 1930s Germany is famous for.
To summarise my point I have far less issue with his words than I do with the words of the Government on the issue which their pets in the media have generally left uncriticised.0 -
Labour pledging to half domestic violence against women. Whilst it’s a laudable aim it feels like an unachievable target and just setting up for failure. I assume they mean the reported violence which, in itself feels impossible to achieve for this type of crime, but I suspect the vast majority of domestic violence never even gets reported.0
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I guess this vindicates Starmer's tactics (even if I don't like his caution on the EU question)... none of the Tories' posturing is moving the dial where the next election will probably be won/lost.
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Assuming Wes Streeting is 'on message', this does sound very much like 'Get elected on developing a better/closer relationship with the EU, then take it from there' strategy.
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Just wondering……
Now Corbyn had been kicked out of Labour, does this draw this thread to a conclusion?
Or is the finale the next general election where the resulting aftermath will be revealed?0 -
I guess if that was the case it would have died out once he stopped being Labour leader, but lets hope that his legacy can live on into the next GE.secretsqirrel said:Just wondering……
Now Corbyn had been kicked out of Labour, does this draw this thread to a conclusion?
Or is the finale the next general election where the resulting aftermath will be revealed?
In the end this is an all purpose leftie bashing thread so there will always be some fun to be had on that front."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
And it has around half the amount of posts that the Tory party bashing thread (that was started later) has managed.Stevo_666 said:
I guess if that was the case it would have died out once he stopped being Labour leader, but lets hope that his legacy can live on into the next GE.secretsqirrel said:Just wondering……
Now Corbyn had been kicked out of Labour, does this draw this thread to a conclusion?
Or is the finale the next general election where the resulting aftermath will be revealed?
In the end this is an all purpose leftie bashing thread so there will always be some fun to be had on that front.1 -
I expect that gap will start to close when Labour become the Government at the end of 2024.Pross said:
And it has around half the amount of posts that the Tory party bashing thread (that was started later) has managed.Stevo_666 said:
I guess if that was the case it would have died out once he stopped being Labour leader, but lets hope that his legacy can live on into the next GE.secretsqirrel said:Just wondering……
Now Corbyn had been kicked out of Labour, does this draw this thread to a conclusion?
Or is the finale the next general election where the resulting aftermath will be revealed?
In the end this is an all purpose leftie bashing thread so there will always be some fun to be had on that front.
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The £3 socialists did achieve some short term success. However the result has been a ‘batsh*t crazy’ tory party, unopposed leaving a trail of destruction, and potential for a new monster in a unopposed Labour party after the next election.
Well played 😆0 -
Given the political make up of this forum, are you surprised?Pross said:
And it has around half the amount of posts that the Tory party bashing thread (that was started later) has managed.Stevo_666 said:
I guess if that was the case it would have died out once he stopped being Labour leader, but lets hope that his legacy can live on into the next GE.secretsqirrel said:Just wondering……
Now Corbyn had been kicked out of Labour, does this draw this thread to a conclusion?
Or is the finale the next general election where the resulting aftermath will be revealed?
In the end this is an all purpose leftie bashing thread so there will always be some fun to be had on that front."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Recent polling suggests it's not to dissimilar to the political makeup of the country.Stevo_666 said:
Given the political make up of this forum, are you surprised?Pross said:
And it has around half the amount of posts that the Tory party bashing thread (that was started later) has managed.Stevo_666 said:
I guess if that was the case it would have died out once he stopped being Labour leader, but lets hope that his legacy can live on into the next GE.secretsqirrel said:Just wondering……
Now Corbyn had been kicked out of Labour, does this draw this thread to a conclusion?
Or is the finale the next general election where the resulting aftermath will be revealed?
In the end this is an all purpose leftie bashing thread so there will always be some fun to be had on that front.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
And?pangolin said:
Recent polling suggests it's not to dissimilar to the political makeup of the country.Stevo_666 said:
Given the political make up of this forum, are you surprised?Pross said:
And it has around half the amount of posts that the Tory party bashing thread (that was started later) has managed.Stevo_666 said:
I guess if that was the case it would have died out once he stopped being Labour leader, but lets hope that his legacy can live on into the next GE.secretsqirrel said:Just wondering……
Now Corbyn had been kicked out of Labour, does this draw this thread to a conclusion?
Or is the finale the next general election where the resulting aftermath will be revealed?
In the end this is an all purpose leftie bashing thread so there will always be some fun to be had on that front."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
It's a bit convoluted, but I think that this analysis is vaguely correct.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/29/red-wall-brexiters-hero-voters-election-partisanStarmer might not be a president-elect, but Britain has a parliamentary system and he is de facto leader of the GTTO coalition – Get The Tories Out. That can be a powerful alliance, although also a fragile one. It was fractured for many years by the Lib Dem decision to form an actual coalition with the Conservatives in 2010. It fell apart completely in 2019 because too many swing voters decided the prospect of Jeremy Corbyn as prime minister was the most repellent one on the ballot paper.
Starmer has worked hard to repair the damage done by his predecessor, to the point of forbidding him from running as a Labour candidate.
That has disoriented the Corbynite left, which now faces an interesting choice. Loyalty to the exiled independent MP for Islington North means formal rupture from Labour and a future of paddling in the stagnant waters of Marxist protest politics. Rowing in behind Starmer (albeit with much grumbling about principles betrayed) offers a slipstream to future influence over a party in power. It is clear where the left’s interests lie – and it isn’t martyrdom to the lost Corbyn cause.
That also means that even if Starmer wins a majority, he too will find himself governing a coalition. Old divisions are buried, but not deep. They will be disinterred by the hard choices that any government has to make.0 -
If anything I suspect the majority on here aren’t natural Labour voters. I know there are others, like me, who have voted Conservative regularly in the past but no longer feel able to. I’ve still never voted Labour though. I would think Lib Dem’s are the party of choice for many on here so they’re actually relatively neutral on both threads but whilst Labour had major problems under Corbyn they have tried to address them, hopefully successfully. Meanwhile the lunatic fringes in the Tory party still seem to be the tail wagging the dog.Stevo_666 said:
Given the political make up of this forum, are you surprised?Pross said:
And it has around half the amount of posts that the Tory party bashing thread (that was started later) has managed.Stevo_666 said:
I guess if that was the case it would have died out once he stopped being Labour leader, but lets hope that his legacy can live on into the next GE.secretsqirrel said:Just wondering……
Now Corbyn had been kicked out of Labour, does this draw this thread to a conclusion?
Or is the finale the next general election where the resulting aftermath will be revealed?
In the end this is an all purpose leftie bashing thread so there will always be some fun to be had on that front.
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It's also pretty natural for people to whine about whoever is in power. Since we have successfully managed to keep the lefties out since 2010, what do you think most of the whining will be about?Pross said:
If anything I suspect the majority on here aren’t natural Labour voters. I know there are others, like me, who have voted Conservative regularly in the past but no longer feel able to. I’ve still never voted Labour though. I would think Lib Dem’s are the party of choice for many on here so they’re actually relatively neutral on both threads but whilst Labour had major problems under Corbyn they have tried to address them, hopefully successfully. Meanwhile the lunatic fringes in the Tory party still seem to be the tail wagging the dog.Stevo_666 said:
Given the political make up of this forum, are you surprised?Pross said:
And it has around half the amount of posts that the Tory party bashing thread (that was started later) has managed.Stevo_666 said:
I guess if that was the case it would have died out once he stopped being Labour leader, but lets hope that his legacy can live on into the next GE.secretsqirrel said:Just wondering……
Now Corbyn had been kicked out of Labour, does this draw this thread to a conclusion?
Or is the finale the next general election where the resulting aftermath will be revealed?
In the end this is an all purpose leftie bashing thread so there will always be some fun to be had on that front."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
If you define short term success as around a decade of keeping the lefties out of power, OKsecretsqirrel said:The £3 socialists did achieve some short term success. However the result has been a ‘batsh*t crazy’ tory party, unopposed leaving a trail of destruction, and potential for a new monster in a unopposed Labour party after the next election.
Well played 😆
Careful what you wish for though, especially if you're vaguely successful."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
you may have kept the lefties out but you certainly did not keep their policies outStevo_666 said:
If you define short term success as around a decade of keeping the lefties out of power, OKsecretsqirrel said:The £3 socialists did achieve some short term success. However the result has been a ‘batsh*t crazy’ tory party, unopposed leaving a trail of destruction, and potential for a new monster in a unopposed Labour party after the next election.
Well played 😆
Careful what you wish for though, especially if you're vaguely successful.1 -
Apparently they're the elite who are in charge of everything anyway.surrey_commuter said:
you may have kept the lefties out but you certainly did not keep their policies outStevo_666 said:
If you define short term success as around a decade of keeping the lefties out of power, OKsecretsqirrel said:The £3 socialists did achieve some short term success. However the result has been a ‘batsh*t crazy’ tory party, unopposed leaving a trail of destruction, and potential for a new monster in a unopposed Labour party after the next election.
Well played 😆
Careful what you wish for though, especially if you're vaguely successful.0 -
No, that's the people off the telly with their degrees and stuff.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Always worth remembering the genesis of this very thread.... * I voted tory to keep Corbyn out............who I also voted for in the labour leadership race*surrey_commuter said:
you may have kept the lefties out but you certainly did not keep their policies outStevo_666 said:
If you define short term success as around a decade of keeping the lefties out of power, OKsecretsqirrel said:The £3 socialists did achieve some short term success. However the result has been a ‘batsh*t crazy’ tory party, unopposed leaving a trail of destruction, and potential for a new monster in a unopposed Labour party after the next election.
Well played 😆
Careful what you wish for though, especially if you're vaguely successful.0 -
all driven by a fear of state interference leading to low growth, low investment, high taxation and massive borrowingrick_chasey said:
Always worth remembering the genesis of this very thread.... * I voted tory to keep Corbyn out............who I also voted for in the labour leadership race*surrey_commuter said:
you may have kept the lefties out but you certainly did not keep their policies outStevo_666 said:
If you define short term success as around a decade of keeping the lefties out of power, OKsecretsqirrel said:The £3 socialists did achieve some short term success. However the result has been a ‘batsh*t crazy’ tory party, unopposed leaving a trail of destruction, and potential for a new monster in a unopposed Labour party after the next election.
Well played 😆
Careful what you wish for though, especially if you're vaguely successful.0
