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It was also reported he was going to apologise. There’s a lesson to be learned, don’t believe everything you read or hear just because it backs your own views.Stevo_666 said:
Same here. Especially after it was reported that Linker himself privately admitted the language in his tweet was OTT.TheBigBean said:
It's an argument with no winners so better to watch from the sidelines.briantrumpet said:FFS, Starmer. Stop being so spineless. Open goal, and you're sitting on the sidelines (if not the fence).
I'm still intrigued how many people on this thread can't see how poor the language was in the tweet0 -
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It’s not just childish. Our ruling party is choosing to pursue a toxic rhetoric.1
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Which part is applicable to the UK now?morstar said:0 -
Our ruling party is attempting many of those behaviours.TheBigBean said:
Which part is applicable to the UK now?morstar said:
They are quite blatantly trying to control the media and the message. That is why they have a stooge at the top of the Beeb. It is why they are incensed at Lineker speaking out.
They are trying to divide people into us and them.
Brexit dialogue of traitors, remoaners. Refugee language of invasion, mis-representation of many as economic migrants.
Illegally proroguing parliament to avoid scrutiny of the house.
So lots of the behaviours are well established over a period of the last 5 years or more.
The key bit is the start. It doesn’t start at the extreme end, it starts with small things. But we’re not just seeing the odd isolated incident.0 -
And yet, you are still able to post your views openly and easily on a forum. You can tweet them. You can probably tiktok them. You perhaps have more ability to reach other people than at any point in history.
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Which gets to the crux of where there seem to be two very different camps of interpretation.TheBigBean said:And yet, you are still able to post your views openly and easily on a forum. You can tweet them. You can probably tiktok them. You perhaps have more ability to reach other people than at any point in history.
I do not believe Lineker has made any comparison to Bravermans comments and the actual holocaust.
I do not believe his tweet is problematic for that reason.
He is simply highlighting that there is a worrying trend which has parallels to worrying historical outcomes. And it is a trend. It’s not a reaction to one isolated comment.
The parallels are important to where problems begin.
People who see Linkers tweet as problematic are either (in my opinion wrongly) interpreting it as saying Braverman is as bad as the Nazis or the very people trying to silence opposition voices.0 -
morstar said:
Which gets to the crux of where there seem to be two very different camps of interpretation.TheBigBean said:And yet, you are still able to post your views openly and easily on a forum. You can tweet them. You can probably tiktok them. You perhaps have more ability to reach other people than at any point in history.
I do not believe Lineker has made any comparison to Bravermans comments and the actual holocaust.
I do not believe his tweet is problematic for that reason.
He is simply highlighting that there is a worrying trend which has parallels to worrying historical outcomes. And it is a trend. It’s not a reaction to one isolated comment.
The parallels are important to where problems begin.
People who see Linkers tweet as problematic are either (in my opinion wrongly) interpreting it as saying Braverman is as bad as the Nazis or the very people trying to silence opposition voices.
And that sums up my thoughts, thanks @morstar
Look over the pond to how Trumpism, with it's catchy three-word slogans, repeated ad nauseam, have made rational debate very difficult to undertake. Build The Wall/Stop The Boats come out of the same stable. Braverman's ludicrous use of "100 million" and then "a billion" isn't accidental. And it might just seem like hyperbole and silly to us, but keep repeating it enough, and playing on divisive rhetoric, and it's hard to backtrack with people who have been conditioned to distrust "invading" foreigners.
Remember that Trump is still the Republican frontrunner, despite being certifiably nuts.
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Could he not find the light switch before the camera went live?
No wonder he's worried about the dark and murky background0 -
monkimark said:
Could he not find the light switch before the camera went live?
No wonder he's worried about the dark and murky background
I assume it's intended to evoke an end-of-the-world atmosphere.
For all his faults, Biden wisely manages (on the whole) to ignore Trump and his cultish followers, and cleverly plays the 'helping all Americans' card with big, signature acts, which seem to have made a positive overall impact. At least he's showing (I think) that you don't have to play the divisiveness card to keep a reasonable degree of electoral popularity. I suspect Labour are trying to play a similar game, though I don't think they've worked out how to inspire, given their avoidance of anything that might not play well in their focus groups: it all feels too cautious.0 -
What part of 'may' don't you understand? It was pretty clear to whoever wrote it and to me when I read it that it may or may not happen. Hence the use of that word...Pross said:
It was also reported he was going to apologise. There’s a lesson to be learned, don’t believe everything you read or hear just because it backs your own views.Stevo_666 said:
Same here. Especially after it was reported that Linker himself privately admitted the language in his tweet was OTT.TheBigBean said:
It's an argument with no winners so better to watch from the sidelines.briantrumpet said:FFS, Starmer. Stop being so spineless. Open goal, and you're sitting on the sidelines (if not the fence).
I'm still intrigued how many people on this thread can't see how poor the language was in the tweet"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Tin foil hat at the ready?morstar said:
Our ruling party is attempting many of those behaviours.TheBigBean said:
Which part is applicable to the UK now?morstar said:
They are quite blatantly trying to control the media and the message. That is why they have a stooge at the top of the Beeb. It is why they are incensed at Lineker speaking out.
They are trying to divide people into us and them.
Brexit dialogue of traitors, remoaners. Refugee language of invasion, mis-representation of many as economic migrants.
Illegally proroguing parliament to avoid scrutiny of the house.
So lots of the behaviours are well established over a period of the last 5 years or more.
The key bit is the start. It doesn’t start at the extreme end, it starts with small things. But we’re not just seeing the odd isolated incident."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Tell me where I'm wrong. You may recall the toxicity around Brexit got an MP murdered.Stevo_666 said:
Tin foil hat at the ready?morstar said:
Our ruling party is attempting many of those behaviours.TheBigBean said:
Which part is applicable to the UK now?morstar said:
They are quite blatantly trying to control the media and the message. That is why they have a stooge at the top of the Beeb. It is why they are incensed at Lineker speaking out.
They are trying to divide people into us and them.
Brexit dialogue of traitors, remoaners. Refugee language of invasion, mis-representation of many as economic migrants.
Illegally proroguing parliament to avoid scrutiny of the house.
So lots of the behaviours are well established over a period of the last 5 years or more.
The key bit is the start. It doesn’t start at the extreme end, it starts with small things. But we’re not just seeing the odd isolated incident.
You may recall Trump managed to get a mob to storm the capitol in the US. It's easy to take democracy and decent society for granted while people very effectively chip away at it.0 -
If you think the nasty tories are trying to turn the UK into a fascist state then you may be sadly mistaken. Tell me where youre right.morstar said:
Tell me where I'm wrong. You may recall the toxicity around Brexit got an MP murdered.Stevo_666 said:
Tin foil hat at the ready?morstar said:
Our ruling party is attempting many of those behaviours.TheBigBean said:
Which part is applicable to the UK now?morstar said:
They are quite blatantly trying to control the media and the message. That is why they have a stooge at the top of the Beeb. It is why they are incensed at Lineker speaking out.
They are trying to divide people into us and them.
Brexit dialogue of traitors, remoaners. Refugee language of invasion, mis-representation of many as economic migrants.
Illegally proroguing parliament to avoid scrutiny of the house.
So lots of the behaviours are well established over a period of the last 5 years or more.
The key bit is the start. It doesn’t start at the extreme end, it starts with small things. But we’re not just seeing the odd isolated incident.
You may recall Trump managed to get a mob to storm the capitol in the US. It's easy to take democracy and decent society for granted while people very effectively chip away at it."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
No, because fortunately their days are numbered.Stevo_666 said:
If you think the nasty tories are trying to turn the UK into a fascist state then you may be sadly mistaken. Tell me where youre right.morstar said:
Tell me where I'm wrong. You may recall the toxicity around Brexit got an MP murdered.Stevo_666 said:
Tin foil hat at the ready?morstar said:
Our ruling party is attempting many of those behaviours.TheBigBean said:
Which part is applicable to the UK now?morstar said:
They are quite blatantly trying to control the media and the message. That is why they have a stooge at the top of the Beeb. It is why they are incensed at Lineker speaking out.
They are trying to divide people into us and them.
Brexit dialogue of traitors, remoaners. Refugee language of invasion, mis-representation of many as economic migrants.
Illegally proroguing parliament to avoid scrutiny of the house.
So lots of the behaviours are well established over a period of the last 5 years or more.
The key bit is the start. It doesn’t start at the extreme end, it starts with small things. But we’re not just seeing the odd isolated incident.
You may recall Trump managed to get a mob to storm the capitol in the US. It's easy to take democracy and decent society for granted while people very effectively chip away at it.
Won’t be for lack of trying though.0 -
What I don’t get is that you say he made no comparison to the Holocaust yet just above you post something that says “this is how it started”morstar said:
Which gets to the crux of where there seem to be two very different camps of interpretation.TheBigBean said:And yet, you are still able to post your views openly and easily on a forum. You can tweet them. You can probably tiktok them. You perhaps have more ability to reach other people than at any point in history.
I do not believe Lineker has made any comparison to Bravermans comments and the actual holocaust.
I do not believe his tweet is problematic for that reason.
He is simply highlighting that there is a worrying trend which has parallels to worrying historical outcomes. And it is a trend. It’s not a reaction to one isolated comment.
The parallels are important to where problems begin.
People who see Linkers tweet as problematic are either (in my opinion wrongly) interpreting it as saying Braverman is as bad as the Nazis or the very people trying to silence opposition voices.0 -
The actions of using toxic rhetoric are not equivalent to mass murder.surrey_commuter said:
What I don’t get is that you say he made no comparison to the Holocaust yet just above you post something that says “this is how it started”morstar said:
Which gets to the crux of where there seem to be two very different camps of interpretation.TheBigBean said:And yet, you are still able to post your views openly and easily on a forum. You can tweet them. You can probably tiktok them. You perhaps have more ability to reach other people than at any point in history.
I do not believe Lineker has made any comparison to Bravermans comments and the actual holocaust.
I do not believe his tweet is problematic for that reason.
He is simply highlighting that there is a worrying trend which has parallels to worrying historical outcomes. And it is a trend. It’s not a reaction to one isolated comment.
The parallels are important to where problems begin.
People who see Linkers tweet as problematic are either (in my opinion wrongly) interpreting it as saying Braverman is as bad as the Nazis or the very people trying to silence opposition voices.
To suggest they are (by either side of the argument) is absurd.
However, we should use the lessons from history to be aware of how dangerous this rhetoric is when it is used systematically.
The thing I find weird is that the message I have taken from the holocaust is “never again”. These horrors can happen and it takes good people to ensure they don’t. Where does that start if it isn’t with rhetoric, media control and division. Exactly what the Tories are doing right now.0 -
How far away are the Tories from banning interracial marriage? Do they have paramilitaries dishing out street beatings? Are they going to shortly vote parliament out of existence? Are the centrist parties worried about communism? Or is your opinion more than a little over the top?2
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Surely the point is that you should call out the rhetoric so things never have an opportunity to get to that stage?TheBigBean said:How far away are the Tories from banning interracial marriage? Do they have paramilitaries dishing out street beatings? Are they going to shortly vote parliament out of existence? Are the centrist parties worried about communism? Or is your opinion more than a little over the top?
- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono1 -
Haven't the Tories introduced some sort of clamp down on protesting?TheBigBean said:How far away are the Tories from banning interracial marriage? Do they have paramilitaries dishing out street beatings? Are they going to shortly vote parliament out of existence? Are the centrist parties worried about communism? Or is your opinion more than a little over the top?
Pretty sure Corbyn wasnt adored for a number of communism related reasons
A few MPs have outwardly spoken about very conservative views about homosexual marriage.
These views are being normalised by our government and it's always the right thing to it out for what it is.
The convervative party is so toxic it defies belief.0 -
It was nothing more than a cautionary tweet, by a football pundit that felt concerned about something.
As they say around these parts ‘seems to have touched a nerve’.
Anyway how did this topic jump from the tory thread?0 -
No, my opinion is not over the top.TheBigBean said:How far away are the Tories from banning interracial marriage? Do they have paramilitaries dishing out street beatings? Are they going to shortly vote parliament out of existence? Are the centrist parties worried about communism? Or is your opinion more than a little over the top?
My opinion is simply that there was no issue with GL’s tweet and that he did not compare Beavermans rhetoric to the holocaust.
He made a cautionary reference as to why language matters.
I am explaining in more detail why that language matters. There is no inevitability of a new holocaust but, there is a pattern of language and behaviour which is not without parallels to dangerous historical precedents and it matters.
We’ve only gone so far down the rabbit hole because some people think the anything relating to the Nazis should never be referenced (for reasons I don’t understand) whereas I think that totally misses the lessons of the Nazis.4 -
Plus Tories did try multiple times to bypass parliament within the last 5 years.TheBigBean said:How far away are the Tories from banning interracial marriage? Do they have paramilitaries dishing out street beatings? Are they going to shortly vote parliament out of existence? Are the centrist parties worried about communism? Or is your opinion more than a little over the top?
We had an MP murdered facilitated by toxic debate around Brexit.
We have had moderate MPs intimidated by aggressive mobs when entering parliament.0 -
You only have to look at the end of Trump's reign to see how these things can escalate whether intentionally or not.pangolin said:
Surely the point is that you should call out the rhetoric so things never have an opportunity to get to that stage?TheBigBean said:How far away are the Tories from banning interracial marriage? Do they have paramilitaries dishing out street beatings? Are they going to shortly vote parliament out of existence? Are the centrist parties worried about communism? Or is your opinion more than a little over the top?
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You come across as somebody who does not realise how uniquely awful the Holocaust was and consequently how inappropriate it is to compare it to a prorogation of Parliament.morstar said:
No, my opinion is not over the top.TheBigBean said:How far away are the Tories from banning interracial marriage? Do they have paramilitaries dishing out street beatings? Are they going to shortly vote parliament out of existence? Are the centrist parties worried about communism? Or is your opinion more than a little over the top?
My opinion is simply that there was no issue with GL’s tweet and that he did not compare Beavermans rhetoric to the holocaust.
He made a cautionary reference as to why language matters.
I am explaining in more detail why that language matters. There is no inevitability of a new holocaust but, there is a pattern of language and behaviour which is not without parallels to dangerous historical precedents and it matters.
We’ve only gone so far down the rabbit hole because some people think the anything relating to the Nazis should never be referenced (for reasons I don’t understand) whereas I think that totally misses the lessons of the Nazis.
If you see the current iteration of the Tory Party as a threat to our democracy and liberal values then why not reach for a comparison with Le Kuan Yew, Franco or Peron.
To compare it in any way to the murder of 6 million jews in an attempt at genocide is wrong.0 -
Surely the point is that in sewers like GBNews there is a feeling that the Tories are right, but they are too weak to do anything about it. The Tories aren't what you need to worry about.
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Absolutely, but going completely over the top is unhelpful. UK society is now so much more tolerant than it has ever been.pangolin said:
Surely the point is that you should call out the rhetoric so things never have an opportunity to get to that stage?TheBigBean said:How far away are the Tories from banning interracial marriage? Do they have paramilitaries dishing out street beatings? Are they going to shortly vote parliament out of existence? Are the centrist parties worried about communism? Or is your opinion more than a little over the top?
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Brian, the thread police representative, posted in this thread, so I assumed it was ok.secretsqirrel said:
Anyway how did this topic jump from the tory thread?3 -
With all due respect, I haven’t.surrey_commuter said:
You come across as somebody who does not realise how uniquely awful the Holocaust was and consequently how inappropriate it is to compare it to a prorogation of Parliament.morstar said:
No, my opinion is not over the top.TheBigBean said:How far away are the Tories from banning interracial marriage? Do they have paramilitaries dishing out street beatings? Are they going to shortly vote parliament out of existence? Are the centrist parties worried about communism? Or is your opinion more than a little over the top?
My opinion is simply that there was no issue with GL’s tweet and that he did not compare Beavermans rhetoric to the holocaust.
He made a cautionary reference as to why language matters.
I am explaining in more detail why that language matters. There is no inevitability of a new holocaust but, there is a pattern of language and behaviour which is not without parallels to dangerous historical precedents and it matters.
We’ve only gone so far down the rabbit hole because some people think the anything relating to the Nazis should never be referenced (for reasons I don’t understand) whereas I think that totally misses the lessons of the Nazis.
If you see the current iteration of the Tory Party as a threat to our democracy and liberal values then why not reach for a comparison with Le Kuan Yew, Franco or Peron.
To compare it in any way to the murder of 6 million jews in an attempt at genocide is wrong.
But I’m out, said my bit. It’s either not landing as I’m doing a bad job or some people are reading what they want to irrespective of what’s written.
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Anyway, here's Labour's answer to not solve this incredibly difficult problem.
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