Join the Labour Party and save your country!
Comments
-
Thing is that not all Unions are the same but they are pandering to the larger, more vocal and generally more militant Unions.surrey_commuter said:
my argument is that it is the other way round. It is a party set up by the unions to represent unions if they want to appeal to a wider audience then it is up to them.rick_chasey said:
It's more so few people are in unions it's an irrelevance.surrey_commuter said:
Was it Miliband who used to keep bumping into people on the Hampstead Heath and he would share their stories?rick_chasey said:What is the strategy? What's the vision? I sound like some management consultant, but I swear these guys just go through focus groups and bit by bit go "Ok what can we say on crime? Great, how about the economy?" etc.
Being vaguely lefty and reacting to problems in a lefty way is not a strategy.
There are plenty of things to do, for sure, but broadly you can distil them down into one or two key strategic directions and assumptions, from which the rest of it flows.
Maybe I should try and do it myself as plainly I think it's easier to do than it is, but surely as a future leader you ought to be able to think hard and put all of that together.
I do wish labour would give up their obsession with unionisation. There isn't the appetite for any more and we need to come up with a decent alternative when it comes to bargaining with employers as the union model does not work in the modern economy.
Surely Labour is the party of the unions? it was founded by them and they fund it! if others don't like that they should leave and start their own party.
You sound like a tory moaning that Labour is in hock to the unions. Well yes the unions set up their own political party to represent the working man in Parliament.
You can go after the union vote if you want, but the route to victory is not there, nor are policies directed towards union members going to affect many people.
There are an awful lot of people in work with no bargaining options beyond taking or leaving the work.
That would be like the Green Party abandoning green policies to widen their appeal and chances of electoral success
0 -
I guess that means that Liberal have just given up completely.rick_chasey said:
...They need to get with the times as the only practical alternative to the Tories > with that position comes a level of responsibility to be current...surrey_commuter said:
my argument is that it is the other way round. It is a party set up by the unions to represent unions if they want to appeal to a wider audience then it is up to them.rick_chasey said:
It's more so few people are in unions it's an irrelevance.surrey_commuter said:
Was it Miliband who used to keep bumping into people on the Hampstead Heath and he would share their stories?rick_chasey said:What is the strategy? What's the vision? I sound like some management consultant, but I swear these guys just go through focus groups and bit by bit go "Ok what can we say on crime? Great, how about the economy?" etc.
Being vaguely lefty and reacting to problems in a lefty way is not a strategy.
There are plenty of things to do, for sure, but broadly you can distil them down into one or two key strategic directions and assumptions, from which the rest of it flows.
Maybe I should try and do it myself as plainly I think it's easier to do than it is, but surely as a future leader you ought to be able to think hard and put all of that together.
I do wish labour would give up their obsession with unionisation. There isn't the appetite for any more and we need to come up with a decent alternative when it comes to bargaining with employers as the union model does not work in the modern economy.
Surely Labour is the party of the unions? it was founded by them and they fund it! if others don't like that they should leave and start their own party.
You sound like a tory moaning that Labour is in hock to the unions. Well yes the unions set up their own political party to represent the working man in Parliament.
You can go after the union vote if you want, but the route to victory is not there, nor are policies directed towards union members going to affect many people.
There are an awful lot of people in work with no bargaining options beyond taking or leaving the work.
That would be like the Green Party abandoning green policies to widen their appeal and chances of electoral success
Certainly looks that way for what should be an open goal.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Lib Dems are in a Catch 22 situation. Those fed up with one of the two main Parties won't vote for them as they haven't got a chance of winning and they can't win because people won't vote for them. It doesn't help that they seem to have become content with sitting in the shadows and hoping no-one sees them though.0
-
FPTP is a 2 party system, ultimately. All other reasons for LD failure are secondary behind that.0
-
The snp has no chance of becoming the next westminster majority party, so they should stop fielding candidates too?0
-
Greens too?kingstongraham said:The snp has no chance of becoming the next westminster majority party, so they should stop fielding candidates too?
You have no chance of success if you don't at least try. At least be a party of opposition.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I am all for voting for who you think would be the best government, and I think everyone should, but let's be real, in FPTP it's a 2 party system, end of.0
-
Only because the voters make it that way.rick_chasey said:I am all for voting for who you think would be the best government, and I think everyone should, but let's be real, in FPTP it's a 2 party system, end of.
We all know of "safe seats" that have switched. It is possible.
Just imagine if at the next election every protest vote and dissatisfied vote went to Liberal as the middle ground. Unlikely, but possible.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
It is designed to be a 2 party system and that is what all FPTP systems reliably return. Even the Commons is physically set up with two long benches facing each other.pblakeney said:
Only because the voters make it that way.rick_chasey said:I am all for voting for who you think would be the best government, and I think everyone should, but let's be real, in FPTP it's a 2 party system, end of.
We all know of "safe seats" that have switched. It is possible.0 -
The point being that the forerunner of the LibDems was one of those 2 for a quite some time. Labour managed to work their way in from nothing.rick_chasey said:
It is designed to be a 2 party system and that is what all FPTP systems reliably return. Even the Commons is physically set up with two long benches facing each other.pblakeney said:
Only because the voters make it that way.rick_chasey said:I am all for voting for who you think would be the best government, and I think everyone should, but let's be real, in FPTP it's a 2 party system, end of.
We all know of "safe seats" that have switched. It is possible.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Exactly, in my opinion it's a daft argumentpblakeney said:
Greens too?kingstongraham said:The snp has no chance of becoming the next westminster majority party, so they should stop fielding candidates too?
You have no chance of success if you don't at least try. At least be a party of opposition.0 -
....100 years ago.rjsterry said:
The point being that the forerunner of the LibDems was one of those 2 for a quite some time. Labour managed to work their way in from nothing.rick_chasey said:
It is designed to be a 2 party system and that is what all FPTP systems reliably return. Even the Commons is physically set up with two long benches facing each other.pblakeney said:
Only because the voters make it that way.rick_chasey said:I am all for voting for who you think would be the best government, and I think everyone should, but let's be real, in FPTP it's a 2 party system, end of.
We all know of "safe seats" that have switched. It is possible.0 -
This sums up everything currently wrong in this country.
Change cannot even be contemplated.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
So? If FPTP tends to a two-party parliament with some minor players, the question should be how to become one of those two, rather than wishing the system were different.rick_chasey said:
....100 years ago.rjsterry said:
The point being that the forerunner of the LibDems was one of those 2 for a quite some time. Labour managed to work their way in from nothing.rick_chasey said:
It is designed to be a 2 party system and that is what all FPTP systems reliably return. Even the Commons is physically set up with two long benches facing each other.pblakeney said:
Only because the voters make it that way.rick_chasey said:I am all for voting for who you think would be the best government, and I think everyone should, but let's be real, in FPTP it's a 2 party system, end of.
We all know of "safe seats" that have switched. It is possible.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
That's fine, but let's be real, it's a long shot.rjsterry said:
So? If FPTP tends to a two-party parliament with some minor players, the question should be how to become one of those two, rather than wishing the system were different.rick_chasey said:
....100 years ago.rjsterry said:
The point being that the forerunner of the LibDems was one of those 2 for a quite some time. Labour managed to work their way in from nothing.rick_chasey said:
It is designed to be a 2 party system and that is what all FPTP systems reliably return. Even the Commons is physically set up with two long benches facing each other.pblakeney said:
Only because the voters make it that way.rick_chasey said:I am all for voting for who you think would be the best government, and I think everyone should, but let's be real, in FPTP it's a 2 party system, end of.
We all know of "safe seats" that have switched. It is possible.0 -
FPTP typically leads to two candidates. Note sure it would always lead to two parties overall. The SNP being clear evidence of this.0
-
Like the SNP?rjsterry said:
So? If FPTP tends to a two-party parliament with some minor players, the question should be how to become one of those two, rather than wishing the system were different.rick_chasey said:
....100 years ago.rjsterry said:
The point being that the forerunner of the LibDems was one of those 2 for a quite some time. Labour managed to work their way in from nothing.rick_chasey said:
It is designed to be a 2 party system and that is what all FPTP systems reliably return. Even the Commons is physically set up with two long benches facing each other.pblakeney said:
Only because the voters make it that way.rick_chasey said:I am all for voting for who you think would be the best government, and I think everyone should, but let's be real, in FPTP it's a 2 party system, end of.
We all know of "safe seats" that have switched. It is possible.0 -
The SNP are the exception that proves the rule...
0 -
How are the SNP the exception in anyway?
They're a minority party in the UK and have no chance of power.0 -
Do you want a system with minority parties or not?rick_chasey said:How are the SNP the exception in anyway?
They're a minority party in the UK and have no chance of power.0 -
They're not in power and won't be. Existing with seats isn't really what it is about.TheBigBean said:
Do you want a system with minority parties or not?rick_chasey said:How are the SNP the exception in anyway?
They're a minority party in the UK and have no chance of power.
Nor is their success really representative. It is in essence a regional quirk of a particular separatist issue that follows the same FPTP pattern, albiet at a regional level because they are a regional party.0 -
I think they are in power. Only in Scotland, perhaps, but I think that was the aim. Given their wish for independence, participation in Westminster is a means to an end. And to give them their due, while they may be poor at running the place they are very good at getting to run the place.rick_chasey said:
They're not in power and won't be. Existing with seats isn't really what it is about.TheBigBean said:
Do you want a system with minority parties or not?rick_chasey said:How are the SNP the exception in anyway?
They're a minority party in the UK and have no chance of power.
Nor is their success really representative. It is in essence a regional quirk of a particular separatist issue that follows the same FPTP pattern, albiet at a regional level because they are a regional party.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
So they could use participating in a coalition to advance their policy goal?rjsterry said:
I think they are in power. Only in Scotland, perhaps, but I think that was the aim. Given their wish for independence, participation in Westminster is a means to an end.rick_chasey said:
They're not in power and won't be. Existing with seats isn't really what it is about.TheBigBean said:
Do you want a system with minority parties or not?rick_chasey said:How are the SNP the exception in anyway?
They're a minority party in the UK and have no chance of power.
Nor is their success really representative. It is in essence a regional quirk of a particular separatist issue that follows the same FPTP pattern, albiet at a regional level because they are a regional party.0 -
I think if the Greens did not field any candidates it would not change their chances of forming the next Govtpblakeney said:
Greens too?kingstongraham said:The snp has no chance of becoming the next westminster majority party, so they should stop fielding candidates too?
You have no chance of success if you don't at least try. At least be a party of opposition.0 -
Ugh. If everyone only thinks about the next government we're not going to get anywhere.surrey_commuter said:
I think if the Greens did not field any candidates it would not change their chances of forming the next Govtpblakeney said:
Greens too?kingstongraham said:The snp has no chance of becoming the next westminster majority party, so they should stop fielding candidates too?
You have no chance of success if you don't at least try. At least be a party of opposition.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Ah, Victorian elections. World has moved on a little since then.kingstongraham said:0 -
What do you see as the role of opposition? The greens seem to have reached a critical mass where they can now be taken semi seriously, generate a good number of votes....and get nowhere.pblakeney said:
Greens too?kingstongraham said:The snp has no chance of becoming the next westminster majority party, so they should stop fielding candidates too?
You have no chance of success if you don't at least try. At least be a party of opposition.
Meanwhile odd parties like the DUP can however about in the hope that a bung will come their way if the tories get a poor turnout.
As far as the SNP goes...it feels stupid that a party can have such a large majority in parliament off so few votes.
0 -
Any chance they have what they have in part due to frustration at Westminster?rick_chasey said:
They're not in power and won't be. Existing with seats isn't really what it is about.TheBigBean said:
Do you want a system with minority parties or not?rick_chasey said:How are the SNP the exception in anyway?
They're a minority party in the UK and have no chance of power.
Nor is their success really representative. It is in essence a regional quirk of a particular separatist issue that follows the same FPTP pattern, albiet at a regional level because they are a regional party.
A protest vote if you will. Then taken away when push comes to shove.
PS - Minority parties do influence policy when there's not an 80 seat majority.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Well the Corbyn stans hated Starmer's speech so he must have said something worthwhile.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0
