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rjsterry said:
It's as though they've completely misunderstood what a political party is for. I think I read someone complaining that the trouble with Starmer was that he was going after people who voted Tory at the last election. 🤯🤪Pross said:
The lack of self-awareness is incredible. As I said before, the reason we have an incompetent Tory party leading the country is directly down to the likes of those people. There's no point them complaining about Tory policies when they have driven their own Party off an electable path.rjsterry said:
I'm sure that Rayner calling all those wavering Tories 'scum' will really sway them to vote Labour. Keep it up Angie, don't sit on the fence..."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I'm sure you understand that she called the cabinet scum, not the voters.Stevo_666 said:rjsterry said:
It's as though they've completely misunderstood what a political party is for. I think I read someone complaining that the trouble with Starmer was that he was going after people who voted Tory at the last election. 🤯🤪Pross said:
The lack of self-awareness is incredible. As I said before, the reason we have an incompetent Tory party leading the country is directly down to the likes of those people. There's no point them complaining about Tory policies when they have driven their own Party off an electable path.rjsterry said:
I'm sure that Rayner calling all those wavering Tories 'scum' will really sway them to vote Labour. Keep it up Angie, don't sit on the fence...0 -
Missed out Prescott because he had the same non-job as Raab has now.surrey_commuter said:kingstongraham said:
Brown, Cook, Straw, Blunkett, Beckett, Reid, Johnson isn't a bad line up.TheBigBean said:What was the glory era for competent cabinets?
Hurd, Baker, Clarke, Howard, Heseltine, Patten not lightweight either.
If you went back to the 80s there'd be some that are very solid (if disagreeable). There was always people you knew would stand up to the PM.
Further back I'll defer to the even more elderly and/or learned.
This is what I mean about the memory filtering out the dross, why isn’t Prescott in that list?
Maggie had a good rep for spotting the w@nkers but a lot of them rose to the surface under Major0 -
Scum by association really. Not sure that many voters will necessarily appreciate the difference either.Jezyboy said:
I'm sure you understand that she called the cabinet scum, not the voters.Stevo_666 said:rjsterry said:
It's as though they've completely misunderstood what a political party is for. I think I read someone complaining that the trouble with Starmer was that he was going after people who voted Tory at the last election. 🤯🤪Pross said:
The lack of self-awareness is incredible. As I said before, the reason we have an incompetent Tory party leading the country is directly down to the likes of those people. There's no point them complaining about Tory policies when they have driven their own Party off an electable path.rjsterry said:
I'm sure that Rayner calling all those wavering Tories 'scum' will really sway them to vote Labour. Keep it up Angie, don't sit on the fence..."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
we can only dream of living in a representative democracy where the hard left, hard right and green parties would all have parliamentary representation proportionate to their share of the vote.Pross said:In one way I respect those hard left types as I've always had more respect for politicians who stick to their ideology even when I don't agree with it. I'm highly suspicious of politicians who try to match their policies to the public mood. The problem is they should have their own hard left party so that there is a centrist option to the Tories (the Lib Dems should be filling that void but seem intent on hiding under their cloak of invisibility).
I know under PR people would have voted differently in the last election but as an example the seats proportionally split would have been
Tory - 283
Lab - 209
LibDem - 75
SNP - 25
Greens - 17
Farage - 13
Welsh - 4
and the LDs would be in a very strog position0 -
So you're saying they tory voters lack compression and want to play the victim.Stevo_666 said:
Scum by association really. Not sure that many voters will necessarily appreciate the difference either.Jezyboy said:
I'm sure you understand that she called the cabinet scum, not the voters.Stevo_666 said:rjsterry said:
It's as though they've completely misunderstood what a political party is for. I think I read someone complaining that the trouble with Starmer was that he was going after people who voted Tory at the last election. 🤯🤪Pross said:
The lack of self-awareness is incredible. As I said before, the reason we have an incompetent Tory party leading the country is directly down to the likes of those people. There's no point them complaining about Tory policies when they have driven their own Party off an electable path.rjsterry said:
I'm sure that Rayner calling all those wavering Tories 'scum' will really sway them to vote Labour. Keep it up Angie, don't sit on the fence...
I guess at least you didn't call them scum.
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Did it hurt your feelings?Stevo_666 said:
Scum by association really. Not sure that many voters will necessarily appreciate the difference either.Jezyboy said:
I'm sure you understand that she called the cabinet scum, not the voters.Stevo_666 said:rjsterry said:
It's as though they've completely misunderstood what a political party is for. I think I read someone complaining that the trouble with Starmer was that he was going after people who voted Tory at the last election. 🤯🤪Pross said:
The lack of self-awareness is incredible. As I said before, the reason we have an incompetent Tory party leading the country is directly down to the likes of those people. There's no point them complaining about Tory policies when they have driven their own Party off an electable path.rjsterry said:
I'm sure that Rayner calling all those wavering Tories 'scum' will really sway them to vote Labour. Keep it up Angie, don't sit on the fence...0 -
Stevo_666 said:
Scum by association really. Not sure that many voters will necessarily appreciate the difference either.Jezyboy said:
I'm sure you understand that she called the cabinet scum, not the voters.Stevo_666 said:rjsterry said:
It's as though they've completely misunderstood what a political party is for. I think I read someone complaining that the trouble with Starmer was that he was going after people who voted Tory at the last election. 🤯🤪Pross said:
The lack of self-awareness is incredible. As I said before, the reason we have an incompetent Tory party leading the country is directly down to the likes of those people. There's no point them complaining about Tory policies when they have driven their own Party off an electable path.rjsterry said:
I'm sure that Rayner calling all those wavering Tories 'scum' will really sway them to vote Labour. Keep it up Angie, don't sit on the fence...
So does calling Johnson a lying, unprincipled, unfaithful baby breeder (I think even you would struggle to deny these descriptions) mean that everyone who voted for him is too? Just trying to untangle your thinking here...0 -
Even Tory voters are affected by gravity.Jezyboy said:
So you're saying they tory voters lack compression and want to play the victim.Stevo_666 said:
Scum by association really. Not sure that many voters will necessarily appreciate the difference either.Jezyboy said:
I'm sure you understand that she called the cabinet scum, not the voters.Stevo_666 said:rjsterry said:
It's as though they've completely misunderstood what a political party is for. I think I read someone complaining that the trouble with Starmer was that he was going after people who voted Tory at the last election. 🤯🤪Pross said:
The lack of self-awareness is incredible. As I said before, the reason we have an incompetent Tory party leading the country is directly down to the likes of those people. There's no point them complaining about Tory policies when they have driven their own Party off an electable path.rjsterry said:
I'm sure that Rayner calling all those wavering Tories 'scum' will really sway them to vote Labour. Keep it up Angie, don't sit on the fence...
I guess at least you didn't call them scum.0 -
Must be a different party that's so affected by an insult to their leaders than the one that mocked up Corbyn as a chicken and called him totally spineless.0
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I note in all your posts you've not once queried whether Rayner's comment was accurate. 😁Stevo_666 said:
Scum by association really. Not sure that many voters will necessarily appreciate the difference either.Jezyboy said:
I'm sure you understand that she called the cabinet scum, not the voters.Stevo_666 said:rjsterry said:
It's as though they've completely misunderstood what a political party is for. I think I read someone complaining that the trouble with Starmer was that he was going after people who voted Tory at the last election. 🤯🤪Pross said:
The lack of self-awareness is incredible. As I said before, the reason we have an incompetent Tory party leading the country is directly down to the likes of those people. There's no point them complaining about Tory policies when they have driven their own Party off an electable path.rjsterry said:
I'm sure that Rayner calling all those wavering Tories 'scum' will really sway them to vote Labour. Keep it up Angie, don't sit on the fence...1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
No. Why?kingstongraham said:
Did it hurt your feelings?Stevo_666 said:
Scum by association really. Not sure that many voters will necessarily appreciate the difference either.Jezyboy said:
I'm sure you understand that she called the cabinet scum, not the voters.Stevo_666 said:rjsterry said:
It's as though they've completely misunderstood what a political party is for. I think I read someone complaining that the trouble with Starmer was that he was going after people who voted Tory at the last election. 🤯🤪Pross said:
The lack of self-awareness is incredible. As I said before, the reason we have an incompetent Tory party leading the country is directly down to the likes of those people. There's no point them complaining about Tory policies when they have driven their own Party off an electable path.rjsterry said:
I'm sure that Rayner calling all those wavering Tories 'scum' will really sway them to vote Labour. Keep it up Angie, don't sit on the fence..."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Or whose voters like to hurl 'woke' or 'snowflakes' around as an insult.kingstongraham said:Must be a different party that's so affected by an insult to their leaders than the one that mocked up Corbyn as a chicken and called him totally spineless.
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Nothing tangled on my side.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Scum by association really. Not sure that many voters will necessarily appreciate the difference either.Jezyboy said:
I'm sure you understand that she called the cabinet scum, not the voters.Stevo_666 said:rjsterry said:
It's as though they've completely misunderstood what a political party is for. I think I read someone complaining that the trouble with Starmer was that he was going after people who voted Tory at the last election. 🤯🤪Pross said:
The lack of self-awareness is incredible. As I said before, the reason we have an incompetent Tory party leading the country is directly down to the likes of those people. There's no point them complaining about Tory policies when they have driven their own Party off an electable path.rjsterry said:
I'm sure that Rayner calling all those wavering Tories 'scum' will really sway them to vote Labour. Keep it up Angie, don't sit on the fence...
So does calling Johnson a lying, unprincipled, unfaithful baby breeder (I think even you would struggle to deny these descriptions) mean that everyone who voted for him is too? Just trying to untangle your thinking here...
Let me know what part of 'Not sure that many voters will necessarily appreciate the difference' you don't understand."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I didn't think I needed to comment on that. She is quite amusing though.rjsterry said:
I note in all your posts you've not once queried whether Rayner's comment was accurate. 😁Stevo_666 said:
Scum by association really. Not sure that many voters will necessarily appreciate the difference either.Jezyboy said:
I'm sure you understand that she called the cabinet scum, not the voters.Stevo_666 said:rjsterry said:
It's as though they've completely misunderstood what a political party is for. I think I read someone complaining that the trouble with Starmer was that he was going after people who voted Tory at the last election. 🤯🤪Pross said:
The lack of self-awareness is incredible. As I said before, the reason we have an incompetent Tory party leading the country is directly down to the likes of those people. There's no point them complaining about Tory policies when they have driven their own Party off an electable path.rjsterry said:
I'm sure that Rayner calling all those wavering Tories 'scum' will really sway them to vote Labour. Keep it up Angie, don't sit on the fence..."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Starmer's speech sounds so old hat.
We've all heard it all before. What's the future, lads?Every time I enter a high-tech factory, I wonder what my dad would make of it.
Not so long ago we shaped metal by drilling it, milling it and turning it. I remember my dad working with a spark eroder submerging metal in liquid and using an electrical charge to shape it.
We thought it was revolutionary at the time.
But at Airbus recently, where they are developing the world’s first hydrogen wing I saw them working with 3D engineering, literally shaping components by bringing together particles and matter in a way unimaginable in the factory my dad used to work in.
I saw young apprentices, in a fully unionised factory proud of the skilled work they were doing. Their pride came from knowing they were at the heart of a revolution, building the next generation of hydrogen and battery planes.
They felt like the pioneers of flight, perched on the edge of the cliff taking the risk, knowing that success for one of them would change the world.
This sounds like a man who is indeed stuck in the times of his father.0 -
You seem somewhat obsessed with it. I thought maybe your deliberate misinterpretation had caused you to be upset.Stevo_666 said:
No. Why?kingstongraham said:
Did it hurt your feelings?Stevo_666 said:
Scum by association really. Not sure that many voters will necessarily appreciate the difference either.Jezyboy said:
I'm sure you understand that she called the cabinet scum, not the voters.Stevo_666 said:rjsterry said:
It's as though they've completely misunderstood what a political party is for. I think I read someone complaining that the trouble with Starmer was that he was going after people who voted Tory at the last election. 🤯🤪Pross said:
The lack of self-awareness is incredible. As I said before, the reason we have an incompetent Tory party leading the country is directly down to the likes of those people. There's no point them complaining about Tory policies when they have driven their own Party off an electable path.rjsterry said:
I'm sure that Rayner calling all those wavering Tories 'scum' will really sway them to vote Labour. Keep it up Angie, don't sit on the fence...
Or do you think other tory voters will be upset by the thing that isnt insulting them and doesn't upset you?0 -
Don't know or care really."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
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Stevo_666 said:
Nothing tangled on my side.briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Scum by association really. Not sure that many voters will necessarily appreciate the difference either.Jezyboy said:
I'm sure you understand that she called the cabinet scum, not the voters.Stevo_666 said:rjsterry said:
It's as though they've completely misunderstood what a political party is for. I think I read someone complaining that the trouble with Starmer was that he was going after people who voted Tory at the last election. 🤯🤪Pross said:
The lack of self-awareness is incredible. As I said before, the reason we have an incompetent Tory party leading the country is directly down to the likes of those people. There's no point them complaining about Tory policies when they have driven their own Party off an electable path.rjsterry said:
I'm sure that Rayner calling all those wavering Tories 'scum' will really sway them to vote Labour. Keep it up Angie, don't sit on the fence...
So does calling Johnson a lying, unprincipled, unfaithful baby breeder (I think even you would struggle to deny these descriptions) mean that everyone who voted for him is too? Just trying to untangle your thinking here...
Let me know what part of 'Not sure that many voters will necessarily appreciate the difference' you don't understand.
OK, so you must think voters can't tell the difference between a lying adulterer and themselves (they must be pretty stupid then, eh?)0 -
Sounds like a man who looks and sounds like a Tory buffing up his working class credentialsrick_chasey said:Starmer's speech sounds so old hat.
We've all heard it all before. What's the future, lads?Every time I enter a high-tech factory, I wonder what my dad would make of it.
Not so long ago we shaped metal by drilling it, milling it and turning it. I remember my dad working with a spark eroder submerging metal in liquid and using an electrical charge to shape it.
We thought it was revolutionary at the time.
But at Airbus recently, where they are developing the world’s first hydrogen wing I saw them working with 3D engineering, literally shaping components by bringing together particles and matter in a way unimaginable in the factory my dad used to work in.
I saw young apprentices, in a fully unionised factory proud of the skilled work they were doing. Their pride came from knowing they were at the heart of a revolution, building the next generation of hydrogen and battery planes.
They felt like the pioneers of flight, perched on the edge of the cliff taking the risk, knowing that success for one of them would change the world.
This sounds like a man who is indeed stuck in the times of his father.0 -
What is the strategy? What's the vision? I sound like some management consultant, but I swear these guys just go through focus groups and bit by bit go "Ok what can we say on crime? Great, how about the economy?" etc.
Being vaguely lefty and reacting to problems in a lefty way is not a strategy.
There are plenty of things to do, for sure, but broadly you can distil them down into one or two key strategic directions and assumptions, from which the rest of it flows.
Maybe I should try and do it myself as plainly I think it's easier to do than it is, but surely as a future leader you ought to be able to think hard and put all of that together.
I do wish labour would give up their obsession with unionisation. There isn't the appetite for any more and we need to come up with a decent alternative when it comes to bargaining with employers as the union model does not work in the modern economy.0 -
rick_chasey said:
What is the strategy? What's the vision? I sound like some management consultant, but I swear these guys just go through focus groups and bit by bit go "Ok what can we say on crime? Great, how about the economy?" etc.
Being vaguely lefty and reacting to problems in a lefty way is not a strategy.
There are plenty of things to do, for sure, but broadly you can distil them down into one or two key strategic directions and assumptions, from which the rest of it flows.
Maybe I should try and do it myself as plainly I think it's easier to do than it is, but surely as a future leader you ought to be able to think hard and put all of that together.
I do wish labour would give up their obsession with unionisation. There isn't the appetite for any more and we need to come up with a decent alternative when it comes to bargaining with employers as the union model does not work in the modern economy.
I wonder if Starmer's legalistic training has left him focusing on small details and processes, but without either the vision nor the charisma to persuade people to vote for him & his party, even if they have worked out what he stands for.
I think he was left adrift by Brexit finally happening (which I am sure he thought was a disaster, but hasn't allowed himself to say so), and hasn't really found a cause to replace that.0 -
FWIW, I do agree tend to agree that is probably slightly counterproductive and an easy giveaway for to the less friendly press. But all the pearl-clutching is a bit pathetic.Stevo_666 said:
I didn't think I needed to comment on that. She is quite amusing though.rjsterry said:
I note in all your posts you've not once queried whether Rayner's comment was accurate. 😁Stevo_666 said:
Scum by association really. Not sure that many voters will necessarily appreciate the difference either.Jezyboy said:
I'm sure you understand that she called the cabinet scum, not the voters.Stevo_666 said:rjsterry said:
It's as though they've completely misunderstood what a political party is for. I think I read someone complaining that the trouble with Starmer was that he was going after people who voted Tory at the last election. 🤯🤪Pross said:
The lack of self-awareness is incredible. As I said before, the reason we have an incompetent Tory party leading the country is directly down to the likes of those people. There's no point them complaining about Tory policies when they have driven their own Party off an electable path.rjsterry said:
I'm sure that Rayner calling all those wavering Tories 'scum' will really sway them to vote Labour. Keep it up Angie, don't sit on the fence...
Anyway, hardly the biggest problem they have at the moment with the diehard Corbyn stans still trying to claim the last two elections as victories. Just a shame your lot have nicked all their policies.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
You could have stopped there. I think that is a lot of management summed up nicely both for industry and government.rick_chasey said:What is the strategy? What's the vision? I sound like some management consultant, but I swear these guys just go through focus groups and bit by bit go "Ok what can we say on crime? Great, how about the economy?" etc.
...The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Was it Miliband who used to keep bumping into people on the Hampstead Heath and he would share their stories?rick_chasey said:What is the strategy? What's the vision? I sound like some management consultant, but I swear these guys just go through focus groups and bit by bit go "Ok what can we say on crime? Great, how about the economy?" etc.
Being vaguely lefty and reacting to problems in a lefty way is not a strategy.
There are plenty of things to do, for sure, but broadly you can distil them down into one or two key strategic directions and assumptions, from which the rest of it flows.
Maybe I should try and do it myself as plainly I think it's easier to do than it is, but surely as a future leader you ought to be able to think hard and put all of that together.
I do wish labour would give up their obsession with unionisation. There isn't the appetite for any more and we need to come up with a decent alternative when it comes to bargaining with employers as the union model does not work in the modern economy.
Surely Labour is the party of the unions? it was founded by them and they fund it! if others don't like that they should leave and start their own party.
You sound like a tory moaning that Labour is in hock to the unions. Well yes the unions set up their own political party to represent the working man in Parliament.0 -
Look at these numbers though. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/27/membership-of-uk-trade-unions-rises-for-fourth-year-in-a-row
Rising to a low number overall.
2.5 million union members in the private sector. If they are who you're trying to please, you're already screwed.0 -
It's more so few people are in unions it's an irrelevance.surrey_commuter said:
Was it Miliband who used to keep bumping into people on the Hampstead Heath and he would share their stories?rick_chasey said:What is the strategy? What's the vision? I sound like some management consultant, but I swear these guys just go through focus groups and bit by bit go "Ok what can we say on crime? Great, how about the economy?" etc.
Being vaguely lefty and reacting to problems in a lefty way is not a strategy.
There are plenty of things to do, for sure, but broadly you can distil them down into one or two key strategic directions and assumptions, from which the rest of it flows.
Maybe I should try and do it myself as plainly I think it's easier to do than it is, but surely as a future leader you ought to be able to think hard and put all of that together.
I do wish labour would give up their obsession with unionisation. There isn't the appetite for any more and we need to come up with a decent alternative when it comes to bargaining with employers as the union model does not work in the modern economy.
Surely Labour is the party of the unions? it was founded by them and they fund it! if others don't like that they should leave and start their own party.
You sound like a tory moaning that Labour is in hock to the unions. Well yes the unions set up their own political party to represent the working man in Parliament.
You can go after the union vote if you want, but the route to victory is not there, nor are policies directed towards union members going to affect many people.
There are an awful lot of people in work with no bargaining options beyond taking or leaving the work.0 -
my argument is that it is the other way round. It is a party set up by the unions to represent unions if they want to appeal to a wider audience then it is up to them.rick_chasey said:
It's more so few people are in unions it's an irrelevance.surrey_commuter said:
Was it Miliband who used to keep bumping into people on the Hampstead Heath and he would share their stories?rick_chasey said:What is the strategy? What's the vision? I sound like some management consultant, but I swear these guys just go through focus groups and bit by bit go "Ok what can we say on crime? Great, how about the economy?" etc.
Being vaguely lefty and reacting to problems in a lefty way is not a strategy.
There are plenty of things to do, for sure, but broadly you can distil them down into one or two key strategic directions and assumptions, from which the rest of it flows.
Maybe I should try and do it myself as plainly I think it's easier to do than it is, but surely as a future leader you ought to be able to think hard and put all of that together.
I do wish labour would give up their obsession with unionisation. There isn't the appetite for any more and we need to come up with a decent alternative when it comes to bargaining with employers as the union model does not work in the modern economy.
Surely Labour is the party of the unions? it was founded by them and they fund it! if others don't like that they should leave and start their own party.
You sound like a tory moaning that Labour is in hock to the unions. Well yes the unions set up their own political party to represent the working man in Parliament.
You can go after the union vote if you want, but the route to victory is not there, nor are policies directed towards union members going to affect many people.
There are an awful lot of people in work with no bargaining options beyond taking or leaving the work.
That would be like the Green Party abandoning green policies to widen their appeal and chances of electoral success0 -
I thought this was cast away 25 years ago under new labour.surrey_commuter said:
my argument is that it is the other way round. It is a party set up by the unions to represent unions if they want to appeal to a wider audience then it is up to them.rick_chasey said:
It's more so few people are in unions it's an irrelevance.surrey_commuter said:
Was it Miliband who used to keep bumping into people on the Hampstead Heath and he would share their stories?rick_chasey said:What is the strategy? What's the vision? I sound like some management consultant, but I swear these guys just go through focus groups and bit by bit go "Ok what can we say on crime? Great, how about the economy?" etc.
Being vaguely lefty and reacting to problems in a lefty way is not a strategy.
There are plenty of things to do, for sure, but broadly you can distil them down into one or two key strategic directions and assumptions, from which the rest of it flows.
Maybe I should try and do it myself as plainly I think it's easier to do than it is, but surely as a future leader you ought to be able to think hard and put all of that together.
I do wish labour would give up their obsession with unionisation. There isn't the appetite for any more and we need to come up with a decent alternative when it comes to bargaining with employers as the union model does not work in the modern economy.
Surely Labour is the party of the unions? it was founded by them and they fund it! if others don't like that they should leave and start their own party.
You sound like a tory moaning that Labour is in hock to the unions. Well yes the unions set up their own political party to represent the working man in Parliament.
You can go after the union vote if you want, but the route to victory is not there, nor are policies directed towards union members going to affect many people.
There are an awful lot of people in work with no bargaining options beyond taking or leaving the work.
That would be like the Green Party abandoning green policies to widen their appeal and chances of electoral success
Labour was set up 100s of years ago. They need to get with the times as the only practical alternative to the Tories > with that position comes a level of responsibility to be current.
Being the party of the worker is not a large deviation from being the party of unions. Once upon a time they were basically the same thing. Not anymore.0 -
Honestly, i am clearly a new labourite, but it is a good strategy for the modern left to live by.
"New Labour is a party of ideas and ideals but not of outdated ideology. What counts is what works. The objectives are radical. The means will be modern"
This current lot would do well to focus on that.0
