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He devotes a couple.of paragraphs to explaining that the metropolitan elite will have to learn to park their devotion to identify politics and wokery and compromise with large swathes of voters in their northern heartlands who don't share their views and who had to suck it up in the same way when B!air took the party in a different direction. It's not going to be easy, this is existential for Labour. It shows you how far they've fallen that they're getting annihilated by a terrible government who have been in power for 10 years and struggled to deal with a pandemic.Jezyboy said:
I think he rather glosses over how Labour keep the metropolitan "elite" happy whilst appealing to the "working" class.shortfall said:https://unherd.com/2021/05/labour-isnt-working/
Paul Embery nails it in this brilliant analysis.
It's no good winning Hartlepool if all you've done is swap it for Islington.0 -
Devotion to wokery
- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
Good flounce by the defeated Labour candidate for Hartlepool
https://metro.co.uk/2021/05/07/hartlepool-labour-candidate-walks-off-without-speech-after-landslide-defeat-14536039/
Not just a bad party, bad losers as well."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
What Labour has to do (imo) is present a vision for the future of the country and then try and take people with them.
It can't be a zero sum game where people's opinions are fixed and Labour try and position themselves so their policies alienate the smallest number because they just look like they stand for nothing. Go out and try and shape what people think, inspire them, win the argument.
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
Well put.DeVlaeminck said:What Labour has to do (imo) is present a vision for the future of the country and then try and take people with them.
It can't be a zero sum game where people's opinions are fixed and Labour try and position themselves so their policies alienate the smallest number because they just look like they stand for nothing. Go out and try and shape what people think, inspire them, win the argument.
Added to that they need to be massively more visible.
It’s the Information Age and yet for the last 5 years Labour leadership has been background noise at best. Corbin was totally absent and keir has yet to do much.
Andy Burnham won a landslide victory as a visible leader. Bojo is the same, visible and popular, Wales and Scotland a similar story.
Being quietly competent in the background counts for nothing. PMQ’s is only noticed by a minority who are actively engaged.0 -
Thanks for your contribution. This is what he actually says if it helps:pangolin said:Devotion to wokery
If that means that topics such as LGBT rights, climate change, gender identity, Palestine and the next woke cause that comes along must take more of a back seat, so be it.
Do you have any thoughts of your own that might illuminate the discussion?1 -
Gobshyte Rayner just been sacked. Looks like Keir feels he has to wield the axe."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]1
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Thats a good sign. They probably see it as the start of a purge of the Corbynite lefties.shortfall said:
It's really annoyed Owen Jones and Ash Sarkar so it's probably a smart move.Stevo_666 said:Gobshyte Rayner just been sacked. Looks like Keir feels he has to wield the axe.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I did read it. Didn't disagree with much of it really, a lot if it is what people have said on here.shortfall said:
Thanks for your contribution. This is what he actually says if it helps:pangolin said:Devotion to wokery
If that means that topics such as LGBT rights, climate change, gender identity, Palestine and the next woke cause that comes along must take more of a back seat, so be it.
Do you have any thoughts of your own that might illuminate the discussion?
I do find the idea that there is more than a handful of vocal twitter users who are 'devoted to wokery' quite funny, sorry. If cites were as chock full of these liberal elites as some people make out then Labour's recent guise would have been doing much better.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
And I'll add that I think equating climate change with "woke causes" is pretty silly too.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
Let's put it another way. Eddie Izzard, Owen Jones and Diane Abbott are to Boris as Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock were to Maggie. Former Labour voters in the northern heartlands aren't going to flood back all the time people like that are seen as the face of the party. They're electoral kryptonite outside of London and the South.pangolin said:
I did read it. Didn't disagree with much of it really, a lot if it is what people have said on here.shortfall said:
Thanks for your contribution. This is what he actually says if it helps:pangolin said:Devotion to wokery
If that means that topics such as LGBT rights, climate change, gender identity, Palestine and the next woke cause that comes along must take more of a back seat, so be it.
Do you have any thoughts of your own that might illuminate the discussion?
I do find the idea that there is more than a handful of vocal twitter users who are 'devoted to wokery' quite funny, sorry. If cites were as chock full of these liberal elites as some people make out then Labour's recent guise would have been doing much better.0 -
Your analogy is a little confused but, again, I don't disagree that Labour are not widely electable at the moment. Obviously...shortfall said:
Let's put it another way. Eddie Izzard, Owen Jones and Diane Abbott are to Boris as Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock were to Maggie. Former Labour voters in the northern heartlands aren't going to flood back all the time people like that are seen as the face of the party. They're electoral kryptonite outside of London and the South.pangolin said:
I did read it. Didn't disagree with much of it really, a lot if it is what people have said on here.shortfall said:
Thanks for your contribution. This is what he actually says if it helps:pangolin said:Devotion to wokery
If that means that topics such as LGBT rights, climate change, gender identity, Palestine and the next woke cause that comes along must take more of a back seat, so be it.
Do you have any thoughts of your own that might illuminate the discussion?
I do find the idea that there is more than a handful of vocal twitter users who are 'devoted to wokery' quite funny, sorry. If cites were as chock full of these liberal elites as some people make out then Labour's recent guise would have been doing much better.
What I disagree with is the concept of cities full of woke metropolitan elites. Otherwise Labour would be doing much better.
Or are you alluding to widespread homophobia being the problem?- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
This type of analysis is guilty of paying to much attention to the number of seats and too little to actual voter behaviour.shortfall said:
Let's put it another way. Eddie Izzard, Owen Jones and Diane Abbott are to Boris as Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock were to Maggie. Former Labour voters in the northern heartlands aren't going to flood back all the time people like that are seen as the face of the party. They're electoral kryptonite outside of London and the South.pangolin said:
I did read it. Didn't disagree with much of it really, a lot if it is what people have said on here.shortfall said:
Thanks for your contribution. This is what he actually says if it helps:pangolin said:Devotion to wokery
If that means that topics such as LGBT rights, climate change, gender identity, Palestine and the next woke cause that comes along must take more of a back seat, so be it.
Do you have any thoughts of your own that might illuminate the discussion?
I do find the idea that there is more than a handful of vocal twitter users who are 'devoted to wokery' quite funny, sorry. If cites were as chock full of these liberal elites as some people make out then Labour's recent guise would have been doing much better.
Johnson may have a stinking 81 seat majority but the proportion of votes isn’t that high.
If you add up labour LD and Greens there’s usually a progressive majority in more or less every election in the last 30 years.
FPTP really exaggerates shifts and puts a huge emphasis on both big parties showing up. It is not really very representative.
I mentioned it in the other thread.
The local mayoral election was very close on the first vote - very few vote in it. On the second vote labour absolutely smashed the Tory candidate. That second round info is info we are normally not privy to.
Different systems produce different results.0 -
Same here, although labour had a slim lead after the first votes, after the second:rick_chasey said:
This type of analysis is guilty of paying to much attention to the number of seats and too little to actual voter behaviour.shortfall said:
Let's put it another way. Eddie Izzard, Owen Jones and Diane Abbott are to Boris as Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock were to Maggie. Former Labour voters in the northern heartlands aren't going to flood back all the time people like that are seen as the face of the party. They're electoral kryptonite outside of London and the South.pangolin said:
I did read it. Didn't disagree with much of it really, a lot if it is what people have said on here.shortfall said:
Thanks for your contribution. This is what he actually says if it helps:pangolin said:Devotion to wokery
If that means that topics such as LGBT rights, climate change, gender identity, Palestine and the next woke cause that comes along must take more of a back seat, so be it.
Do you have any thoughts of your own that might illuminate the discussion?
I do find the idea that there is more than a handful of vocal twitter users who are 'devoted to wokery' quite funny, sorry. If cites were as chock full of these liberal elites as some people make out then Labour's recent guise would have been doing much better.
Johnson may have a stinking 81 seat majority but the proportion of votes isn’t that high.
If you add up labour LD and Greens there’s usually a progressive majority in more or less every election in the last 30 years.
FPTP really exaggerates shifts and puts a huge emphasis on both big parties showing up. It is not really very representative.
I mentioned it in the other thread.
The local mayoral election was very close on the first vote - very few vote in it. On the second vote labour absolutely smashed the Tory candidate. That second round info is info we are normally not privy to.
Different systems produce different results.
Dan Norris (Labour) -125,482
Samuel Williams (Conservative) - 85,389- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
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And as for thinking sneering at people at the other end of the political spectrum is somehow the exclusive realm of people on the left....
Curious he thinks racial minorities are somehow an electoral problem for the Tories but anyway....0 -
So on this, the gap between Tories and Labour has shrunk substantially in terms of actual number of votes.rick_chasey said:
This type of analysis is guilty of paying to much attention to the number of seats and too little to actual voter behaviour.shortfall said:
Let's put it another way. Eddie Izzard, Owen Jones and Diane Abbott are to Boris as Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock were to Maggie. Former Labour voters in the northern heartlands aren't going to flood back all the time people like that are seen as the face of the party. They're electoral kryptonite outside of London and the South.pangolin said:
I did read it. Didn't disagree with much of it really, a lot if it is what people have said on here.shortfall said:
Thanks for your contribution. This is what he actually says if it helps:pangolin said:Devotion to wokery
If that means that topics such as LGBT rights, climate change, gender identity, Palestine and the next woke cause that comes along must take more of a back seat, so be it.
Do you have any thoughts of your own that might illuminate the discussion?
I do find the idea that there is more than a handful of vocal twitter users who are 'devoted to wokery' quite funny, sorry. If cites were as chock full of these liberal elites as some people make out then Labour's recent guise would have been doing much better.
Johnson may have a stinking 81 seat majority but the proportion of votes isn’t that high.
If you add up labour LD and Greens there’s usually a progressive majority in more or less every election in the last 30 years.
FPTP really exaggerates shifts and puts a huge emphasis on both big parties showing up. It is not really very representative.
I mentioned it in the other thread.
The local mayoral election was very close on the first vote - very few vote in it. On the second vote labour absolutely smashed the Tory candidate. That second round info is info we are normally not privy to.
Different systems produce different results.
Wales is a big surprise.
Arguably this govt is riding a wave as a result of the vaccination programme.
It’s not all doom and gloom.
And as for “woke” candidates banging on about pronouns, here’s an anecdote for you.
Newnham here in Cambridge is the main University district. Big expensive houses backing onto beautiful historical buildings. Highest concentration of Nobel prize winners in the world.
Newnham is Lib Dem through and through. Been yellow for as long as I can remember.
3 city council seats available in Newnham. Has always been LD.
This year a very vocal councillor who was very hot on gender fluidity and pronouns etc got kicked out for a labour candidate - Newnham turned in two LD councillors and one labour and the “woke” councillor got binned.
And they don’t get much more progressive than Newnham.
It’s a red herring I’m telling ya.0 -
It's an interesting point, and key to understanding. Eddie Izzard and Owen Jones aren't Labour politicians like Foot and Kinnock were. And they don't only turn northerners off.shortfall said:
Let's put it another way. Eddie Izzard, Owen Jones and Diane Abbott are to Boris as Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock were to Maggie. Former Labour voters in the northern heartlands aren't going to flood back all the time people like that are seen as the face of the party. They're electoral kryptonite outside of London and the South.pangolin said:
I did read it. Didn't disagree with much of it really, a lot if it is what people have said on here.shortfall said:
Thanks for your contribution. This is what he actually says if it helps:pangolin said:Devotion to wokery
If that means that topics such as LGBT rights, climate change, gender identity, Palestine and the next woke cause that comes along must take more of a back seat, so be it.
Do you have any thoughts of your own that might illuminate the discussion?
I do find the idea that there is more than a handful of vocal twitter users who are 'devoted to wokery' quite funny, sorry. If cites were as chock full of these liberal elites as some people make out then Labour's recent guise would have been doing much better.0 -
If we’re talking electoral kryptonite, how does anyone (esp. Conservative voters) explain a failure like Gavin Williamson? Or Thicky Patel? How can massively unqualified and unsuccessful ministers be ignored over a Labour side-policy relating to, for instance, LGBT?kingstongraham said:
It's an interesting point, and key to understanding. Eddie Izzard and Owen Jones aren't Labour politicians like Foot and Kinnock were. And they don't only turn northerners off.shortfall said:
Let's put it another way. Eddie Izzard, Owen Jones and Diane Abbott are to Boris as Michael Foot and Neil Kinnock were to Maggie. Former Labour voters in the northern heartlands aren't going to flood back all the time people like that are seen as the face of the party. They're electoral kryptonite outside of London and the South.pangolin said:
I did read it. Didn't disagree with much of it really, a lot if it is what people have said on here.shortfall said:
Thanks for your contribution. This is what he actually says if it helps:pangolin said:Devotion to wokery
If that means that topics such as LGBT rights, climate change, gender identity, Palestine and the next woke cause that comes along must take more of a back seat, so be it.
Do you have any thoughts of your own that might illuminate the discussion?
I do find the idea that there is more than a handful of vocal twitter users who are 'devoted to wokery' quite funny, sorry. If cites were as chock full of these liberal elites as some people make out then Labour's recent guise would have been doing much better.
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Why don’t they out populist him with bigger promises and bigger flags, attack him for being soft on Brussels?0
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The conclusion seems to be that Northern England don't vote Labour because of everything they've done in government for the last 10 years, because of people who aren't anywhere near the running of Labour, that there are no working class people in London and identity politics is to blame, but they shouldn't sack a northern working class woman.
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!3 -
London won’t vote for that surelysurrey_commuter said:Why don’t they out populist him with bigger promises and bigger flags, attack him for being soft on Brussels?
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No working class people in Manchester either. They're also London centered metropolitan elite wannabees there.tailwindhome said:The conclusion seems to be that Northern England don't vote Labour because of everything they've done in government for the last 10 years, because of people who aren't anywhere near the running of Labour, that there are no working class people in London and identity politics is to blame, but they shouldn't sack a northern working class woman.
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I guess focusing on the whole culture wars is a helpful way to distract from a decade of failed economic policy.
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The current situation is that fptp fundamentally works in a two party system but once the voting is wider spread it totally disproportionately favours tha largest single party regardless of overall popularity.
The tories are by far and a way the largest single.
Assuming that doesn’t change in the foreseeable future to overcome this, the opposition parties have to unite to gain power, the only way I see this happening is both national cohesion and a firm commitment to introduce PR upon success.
If not, it is simply a case of waiting while the incumbent party gets so complacent that people turn their backs on them.0 -
Speaking of which, Starmer can't sack Rayner as deputy leader because she is elected to the post. So after getting rid of her as party chairman, they really are going to get on well. The dream tickettailwindhome said:but they shouldn't sack a northern working class woman.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Is Owen Jones not a working class northerner?0
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What I see here is people trying to distract from some very good election results for the tories.rick_chasey said:I guess focusing on the whole culture wars is a helpful way to distract from a decade of failed economic policy.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
