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I think that's a very left wing view of the differences. I think more accurately, at least excluding the extremes, left and right are just a different view of what constitutes fairness or equality.rick_chasey said:
Left wing is typically orientated around equality and fairness, right? Regardless of who you are.kingstongraham said:
Populist, obviously. But if the spending pledges are not that different, then why is one automatically right, one left?rick_chasey said:Guys, the Tories haven't moved left economically.
They have gone populist right. That is not the same thing.
So the NHS is a left-wing intervention as it aims to provide everyone, regardless of who or what they are or how much money they have, with healthcare.
Right-wing populist approaches are much more divisive interventions. Classically they are normally interventions to help one group over another. They are for "the people" but never usually everyone. A classic example would be to offer extra child benefit to British families only, rather than all residents, so excluding immigrants.
It's normally orientated around the usual populist narrative about "us and them" with us being non-elite natives and them being elites and or foreigners.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Traditionally the Tories have stood for small state, which equates to low taxes. The reason that Labour like a big state is it gives them the levers to help the poorer members of society but this requires higher taxes.rick_chasey said:So for example BoJo's latest efforts around brain-drain from the regions to cities is fairly right wing.
It's neither letting the market do it's work nor is it treating everyone equally - it's biased towards non-city dwellers.
Ergo, it's right wing.
If you ignore the labels of left a right then thinking that you can reverse the brain drain is the most Labour policy imaginable. Try and reverse a centuries long trend by spending our taxes on "soft" infrastructure.
If he was in 1800s America he would have tried to stop the gold rush and then would have tried to rejuvenate ghost towns with a cvic arts centre.0 -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/13/cruel-paranoid-failing-priti-patel-inside-the-home-office
Guardian "long read" on the home office. Not very partisan, FWIW (both labour in the '00s and the Tories since get plenty of blame)
Quite interesting.0 -
Interesting article warning the tories against complacency and how one day the home counties and shires may turn red:
https://telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2021/05/12/blue-wall-one-day-tory-shires-will-overrun-woke-young-lefties/
Quote:
Just as working-class northern seats have moved to the Right, some political analysts believe that, in turn, middle-class southern seats are gradually moving to the Left. Which means the fall of the Red Wall may eventually be followed by the fall of the Blue Wall. Geographically, the Tories and Labour will have swapped places.
Such an extraordinary turnaround certainly won’t be complete in time for the next general election. But some early warning signs are there. Last week, Labour’s biggest gains – and the Tories’ biggest falls – were in the South East. The Tories lost councillors in Surrey, Oxfordshire and Tunbridge Wells. The Tory leader of Worthing Borough Council in West Sussex anxiously told the BBC that the Government should “pay a bit more attention to the South East”.
And the likely driver of this change?
Quote:
For the moment, it may seem unthinkable. But, as millions more metropolitan liberal graduates leave London and spread across southern England, it can’t be ruled out. Ten years from now, the Tory shires could well be overrun by Lefties.
Just imagine it. The Cotswolds will be a hotbed of international socialism. Chalfont St Giles will lead calls to nationalise Mary Berry. ‘Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells’ will write to Novara Media to rage against white privilege, and demand that Chatsworth House be converted into a poetry workshop for non-binary asylum seekers.
As far as I can see, it may have already started
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
The Tories lost control of Tunbridge Wells council this year for the first time in 20 years.
The real concern should be that they aren't losing their antipathy to Tory policies as they grow out of student politics absoluteism.0 -
The switch in the telegraph to populist nonsense is quite remarkable.
Every opinion piece boils down to either “those awful elite versus the real working man” or “those awful foreigners versus the great British man”
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rick_chasey said:
The switch in the telegraph to populist nonsense is quite remarkable.
Every opinion piece boils down to either “those awful elite versus the real working man” or “those awful foreigners versus the great British man”
Yes, indeed. Used to be a good read. Mind you, so was The Independent for many years, and that's a load of tosh these days too.0 -
Is there a definition of the "metropolitan elite"? Surely Stevo fits the demo.- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
Ja look most are going south.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:The switch in the telegraph to populist nonsense is quite remarkable.
Every opinion piece boils down to either “those awful elite versus the real working man” or “those awful foreigners versus the great British man”
Yes, indeed. Used to be a good read. Mind you, so was The Independent for many years, and that's a load of tosh these days too.
The times today is hating on travellers and is saying banning gay conversion therapy is a “minefield” and the guardian is so partisan the other way large swathes are entirely unreadable.
But the telegraph is a really acutely and narrowly populist and its so at odds to what it was not so long ago0 -
I thought it was quite an amusing article. Clearly had tongue in cheek but appears to have done the job
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
One out of two isn't badpangolin said:Is there a definition of the "metropolitan elite"? Surely Stevo fits the demo.
We're taking advantage of metropolitan house prices this year and moving further out. "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
That article was not hating on travellersrick_chasey said:
Ja look most are going south.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:The switch in the telegraph to populist nonsense is quite remarkable.
Every opinion piece boils down to either “those awful elite versus the real working man” or “those awful foreigners versus the great British man”
Yes, indeed. Used to be a good read. Mind you, so was The Independent for many years, and that's a load of tosh these days too.
The times today is hating on travellers and is saying banning gay conversion therapy is a “minefield” and the guardian is so partisan the other way large swathes are entirely unreadable.
But the telegraph is a really acutely and narrowly populist and its so at odds to what it was not so long ago0 -
I always marvel at the Tories getting away with the whole lefty liberal elite thing when there party is almost always led by the Eton and Oxbridge educated upper classes.0
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elbowloh said:
I always marvel at the Tories getting away with the whole lefty liberal elite thing when there party is almost always led by the Eton and Oxbridge educated upper classes.
I'll know I've gone into an alternative universe when they adopt "Drain the swamp!" as their rallying cry.0 -
Did you not get the memo? The swamp is the judiciary, civil service and BBC.briantrumpet said:elbowloh said:I always marvel at the Tories getting away with the whole lefty liberal elite thing when there party is almost always led by the Eton and Oxbridge educated upper classes.
I'll know I've gone into an alternative universe when they adopt "Drain the swamp!" as their rallying cry.0 -
Some sensible advice for Starmer that he probably won't have the cojones to do anything about:
https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/17/labour-church-now-broad-function-two-wings-need-agree-divorce/
Quote:
The Labour Party is a broad church: it’s the phrase reliably deployed by front benchers whenever an interviewer raises uncomfortable examples of fellow party members making statements that wildly divert from whatever current party policy is understood to be.
It’s the breadth and diversity of opinions of the occupants of the pews that is cited as a strength. But isn’t it time to admit that far from producing a healthy dynamic that appeals to an equally broad section of voters, it is that very same breadth that is proving too challenging for voters to embrace?
Let’s take an event that happened yesterday as an example.
A rally in support of the Palestinians was attended by former Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, who received his usual rhapsodic reception from the crowd. Corbyn is reported to be keen to be re-admitted to the ranks of the Parliamentary Labour Party, from which he was suspended last year for allegedly undermining the conclusions of a report by the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) into anti-Semitism in the party.
His followers, at least those still clinging on to their membership cards, also want him readmitted. But yesterday, the comedian Alexie Sayle, in his introduction to Corbyn, described the current Labour leader, Keir Starmer, as a “sack of sh**”. Corbyn, widely known for his courtesy and politeness, even to political opponents, raised not a word of objection to this description.
Worse – much, much worse – was the fact that just a few feet away stood a large inflatable caricature of Mohamed bin Zayed Al Nahyan, Crown Prince of the Emirate of Abu Dhabi. MBZ, as he’s familiarly known, was depicted with a hooked nose and devil’s horns because of his unforgivable crime of normalising relations between the United Arab Emirates and Israel. Again, Corbyn was happy to appear alongside such an unambiguously anti-Semitic symbol without objection. Once again, Corbyn was “present but not involved”.
Corbyn is just one man – a man with little or no political judgment and a very dubious tolerance of extremists, but still, just one man. Yet he represents the fatal schism in the modern Labour Party more than any other individual. He still has the support of thousands of Labour members who would welcome him back to the leader’s position in a heartbeat if they got the chance. He also has the uncritical support of a number of Labour MPs, at least two of whom were candidates in the leadership elections last year.
On the opposite wing of the party are the likes of Margaret Hodge, Rachel Reeves, Jonathan Reynolds and Ian Murray, who have virtually nothing in common with their opposite wing.
The “broad church” of the Labour Party was predicated on the two wings holding the same principles, even if those principles didn’t translate into the same policy solutions. Yet aside from a vague commitment to “equality” and “fairness”, there is now little to unite the two wings of the party and their adherents. They regard each other with a deep hatred that even their mutual foe on the Conservative benches of the Commons manages to escape.
The party has always had its factions; it is an inevitable part of life as a Labour activist that they will be drawn into one camp or another to organise victory over the other in elections to internal party bodies. Even in the distant past, going back to momentous splits such as that over Clause IV in the early 1960s and the attempted take-over by the Bennite Left in 1980-81, such a dynamic was often described by those involved as tolerable, even healthy, since it helped the party define itself and what it wanted.
But that was never a convincing reason to tolerate the continued bickering and all-out war between Left and Right within the party. One glance at the electoral scorecard since the end of the Second World War tells you all you need to know about how difficult a task Labour has faced trying to cobble together a functional internal coalition that will appeal to voters. Most of the time it fails, and the triumphs have been far too rare to be able to claim that the party can still aspire to Harold Wilson’s optimistic description as a “natural party of government”.
Rather than face the prospect of a fundamental reformation of the party, consecutive leaders have instead sought an uneasy truce with the hard Left. Only Tony Blair was brave enough to take them head-on by removing the Left’s sacred cow, Clause IV of the party’s constitution, which before 1995 committed it to mass renationalisation of industry.
And still the hard Left failed to take the hint. Still they organised for their own narrow vision of socialism, a campaign that eventually resulted in the unthinkable: Corbyn’s election as leader in 2015.
At what point will the party’s Right wing, those who actually see the value in democracy and government rather than in revolution and protest, wake up from their fruitless dreams of a united party as it’s currently constructed? Will they ever listen and act on their political instinct, the one telling them that the game’s up?
Starmer has absolutely nothing to lose by finally cutting ties with his party’s anti-Semitic, Putin-loving, economically illiterate Left wing. True, any attempts to expel Corbyn and the Campaign Group of MPs might send Labour’s poll ratings into freefall in the short term, but isn’t that what’s happening now anyway? He needs to send out the message that Labour is a centre Left, moderate, pro-market party, and anyone who disagrees with that vision is hereby invited to resign their membership.
There is no need for a formal split, one that would force the issue of who owns the Labour brand (not to mention its physical assets such as buildings) into the courts. A simple “no tolerance” approach to association with the many extremist Leftist outfits and individuals whom Corbyn likes to flirt with should be enough. And if Labour’s trade union backers are unhappy with that approach, they can be invited to use the door marked “exit” too.
Starmer is most unlikely to go down that road, however. He is too cautious, too conservative, too timid. He’s not the first Labour leader to baulk at the challenge. And he won’t be the first to suffer the inevitable electoral consequences of defending a coalition that has become so wide that it is now toxic to the Labour brand."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
They'd need to be convinced there is actually a majority in the party membership for a reasonable compromise rather than student politics. Otherwise they pick that fight and everyone loses.
It's a reasonable article, but both sides in the Labour party think the solution is for the other side to go away.0 -
Obviously anything to do with Israel is a can of worms on the internet. However I don't think it's anti semitic to think what the Israeli government is doing currently is wrong, any more than it would be anti Christian to criticise Boris or Trump. Implying the two are one and the same isn't helpful. And no Stevo, that doesn't mean I'm a fan of Corbyn...- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
I am minded of the Gerry Adams quote, "They haven't gone away you know".kingstongraham said:They'd need to be convinced there is actually a majority in the party membership for a reasonable compromise rather than student politics. Otherwise they pick that fight and everyone loses.
It's a reasonable article, but both sides in the Labour party think the solution is for the other side to go away.
Until Starmer or whoever the next leader is, cuts the likes of Corbyn and his acolytes adrift, people will know the nutters still inhabit the Labour Party. An albatross around the leader's neck.
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This. Too many people (deliberately) confuse criticism of the Israeli state as criticism of Judaism. They are not one and the same thing.pangolin said:Obviously anything to do with Israel is a can of worms on the internet. However I don't think it's anti semitic to think what the Israeli government is doing currently is wrong, any more than it would be anti Christian to criticise Boris or Trump. Implying the two are one and the same isn't helpful. And no Stevo, that doesn't mean I'm a fan of Corbyn...
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ballysmate said:
I am minded of the Gerry Adams quote, "They haven't gone away you know".kingstongraham said:They'd need to be convinced there is actually a majority in the party membership for a reasonable compromise rather than student politics. Otherwise they pick that fight and everyone loses.
It's a reasonable article, but both sides in the Labour party think the solution is for the other side to go away.
Until Starmer or whoever the next leader is, cuts the likes of Corbyn and his acolytes adrift, people will know the nutters still inhabit the Labour Party. An albatross around the leader's neck.
It's worth remembering that the 'nutters' wing of the Tory party was the 'bastards'/Brexit wing until some time after the referendum, and that there had been mutterings about how unbridgeable the gap was.0 -
And long may it remain.ballysmate said:
I am minded of the Gerry Adams quote, "They haven't gone away you know".kingstongraham said:They'd need to be convinced there is actually a majority in the party membership for a reasonable compromise rather than student politics. Otherwise they pick that fight and everyone loses.
It's a reasonable article, but both sides in the Labour party think the solution is for the other side to go away.
Until Starmer or whoever the next leader is, cuts the likes of Corbyn and his acolytes adrift, people will know the nutters still inhabit the Labour Party. An albatross around the leader's neck.
Like I said, he doesn't have the balls to do it so they will keep on losing elections. Hey ho "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Wrong thread. This is the leftie bashing thread.briantrumpet said:ballysmate said:
I am minded of the Gerry Adams quote, "They haven't gone away you know".kingstongraham said:They'd need to be convinced there is actually a majority in the party membership for a reasonable compromise rather than student politics. Otherwise they pick that fight and everyone loses.
It's a reasonable article, but both sides in the Labour party think the solution is for the other side to go away.
Until Starmer or whoever the next leader is, cuts the likes of Corbyn and his acolytes adrift, people will know the nutters still inhabit the Labour Party. An albatross around the leader's neck.
It's worth remembering that the 'nutters' wing of the Tory party was the 'bastards'/Brexit wing until some time after the referendum, and that there had been mutterings about how unbridgeable the gap was.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo_666 said:
Wrong thread. This is the leftie bashing thread.briantrumpet said:ballysmate said:
I am minded of the Gerry Adams quote, "They haven't gone away you know".kingstongraham said:They'd need to be convinced there is actually a majority in the party membership for a reasonable compromise rather than student politics. Otherwise they pick that fight and everyone loses.
It's a reasonable article, but both sides in the Labour party think the solution is for the other side to go away.
Until Starmer or whoever the next leader is, cuts the likes of Corbyn and his acolytes adrift, people will know the nutters still inhabit the Labour Party. An albatross around the leader's neck.
It's worth remembering that the 'nutters' wing of the Tory party was the 'bastards'/Brexit wing until some time after the referendum, and that there had been mutterings about how unbridgeable the gap was.
Would you like me to go through the Tory bashing thread to check how many times you've mentioned Corbyn or Labour? Though I'm sure you only mentioned them because it was relevant to the discussion...0 -
As the OP I'd appreciate it if you could stay on topic. If you want to bash tories there is a thread for that, which was started by the highly respected Wolf of Cake Stopbriantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Wrong thread. This is the leftie bashing thread.briantrumpet said:ballysmate said:
I am minded of the Gerry Adams quote, "They haven't gone away you know".kingstongraham said:They'd need to be convinced there is actually a majority in the party membership for a reasonable compromise rather than student politics. Otherwise they pick that fight and everyone loses.
It's a reasonable article, but both sides in the Labour party think the solution is for the other side to go away.
Until Starmer or whoever the next leader is, cuts the likes of Corbyn and his acolytes adrift, people will know the nutters still inhabit the Labour Party. An albatross around the leader's neck.
It's worth remembering that the 'nutters' wing of the Tory party was the 'bastards'/Brexit wing until some time after the referendum, and that there had been mutterings about how unbridgeable the gap was.
Would you like me to go through the Tory bashing thread to check how many times you've mentioned Corbyn or Labour? Though I'm sure you only mentioned them because it was relevant to the discussion... "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]1 -
Stevo_666 said:
As the OP I'd appreciate it if you could stay on topic. If you want to bash tories there is a thread for that, which was started by the highly respected Wolf of Cake Stopbriantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
Wrong thread. This is the leftie bashing thread.briantrumpet said:ballysmate said:
I am minded of the Gerry Adams quote, "They haven't gone away you know".kingstongraham said:They'd need to be convinced there is actually a majority in the party membership for a reasonable compromise rather than student politics. Otherwise they pick that fight and everyone loses.
It's a reasonable article, but both sides in the Labour party think the solution is for the other side to go away.
Until Starmer or whoever the next leader is, cuts the likes of Corbyn and his acolytes adrift, people will know the nutters still inhabit the Labour Party. An albatross around the leader's neck.
It's worth remembering that the 'nutters' wing of the Tory party was the 'bastards'/Brexit wing until some time after the referendum, and that there had been mutterings about how unbridgeable the gap was.
Would you like me to go through the Tory bashing thread to check how many times you've mentioned Corbyn or Labour? Though I'm sure you only mentioned them because it was relevant to the discussion...
You might consider that I wasn't bashing tories, merely pointing out that even dysfunctional and apparently hopelessly split parties can rally behind even a lying, lazy, unprincipled leader. It's quite an achievement, I'll admit.0 -
OK Brian. Now back to leftie bashing..."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
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That is correct. There needs to be distinction between criticism of the Israeli Government and anti-semitism.elbowloh said:
This. Too many people (deliberately) confuse criticism of the Israeli state as criticism of Judaism. They are not one and the same thing.pangolin said:Obviously anything to do with Israel is a can of worms on the internet. However I don't think it's anti semitic to think what the Israeli government is doing currently is wrong, any more than it would be anti Christian to criticise Boris or Trump. Implying the two are one and the same isn't helpful. And no Stevo, that doesn't mean I'm a fan of Corbyn...
'Worse – much, much worse – was the fact that just a few feet away stood a large inflatable caricature of Mohamed bin Zayed Al Nahyan, Crown Prince of the Emirate of Abu Dhabi. MBZ, as he’s familiarly known, was depicted with a hooked nose and devil’s horns because of his unforgivable crime of normalising relations between the United Arab Emirates and Israel.'
This is anti-semitic, no?0 -
You can't keep a good socialist down...go Jezza
https://theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/08/jeremy-corbyn-could-be-reinstated-as-labour-mp-under-leftwing-challenge-to-starmer
Or for that matter, a good thread "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Meanwhile, Labour is being true to form...
https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/09/26/angela-rayner-faces-calls-apologise-describing-tories-bunch/"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
