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Stevo_666

TailWindHome wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

As I see it the current issues in parliament are largely because there is no one party with a clear majority. Which is something of an unusual situation in UK politics.

Are we moving towards a four party situation or is this a blip?

I thought we already had Tory, Labour, SNP and Lib Dem - unless you think that one or more of those is insignificant and doesn't really count?

As soon as a party starts to count of offer something attractive to voters, the main 2 just adopt the policy and absorb the party and its supporters.

I'm discounting SNP as a regional party.

The current Left Right model seems to be coming under tremendous strain.

It's not inconceivable that the right will split to Right and Centre Right and Labour to Left and Centre Left.

Whether the centre left swallows the LibDems or coalesces round them remains to be seen.

If you're discounting the SNP who have 56 seats, what's your take on the Lib Dems with 11 seats?

sgt.pepper

Stevo 666 wrote:

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Or else look at other countries with PR. The permanent political paralysis in Italy for example. Or Germany, where there was no government for 6 or 7 months while Merkel tried to negotiate a coalition - and where an extremist fringe party (AfD) has a sizeable representation.

Be careful what you wish for...

Red herrings.

No, the result of no overall majority stemming from their PR system.

Then please account for;

- the vast majority of countries that exist and function perfectly adequately under electoral systems that actually represent the electorate (Germany included).

- the current shambolic 'coalition not coalition' between the party that didn't attain an overall majority, and a fringe party with some unpleasant views. Under FPTP.

kingstongraham

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Or else look at other countries with PR. The permanent political paralysis in Italy for example. Or Germany, where there was no government for 6 or 7 months while Merkel tried to negotiate a coalition - and where an extremist fringe party (AfD) has a sizeable representation.

Be careful what you wish for...

Red herrings.

No, the result of no overall majority stemming from their PR system.

Then please account for;

- the vast majority of countries that exist and function perfectly adequately under electoral systems that actually represent the electorate (Germany included).

- the current shambolic 'coalition not coalition' between the party that didn't attain an overall majority, and a fringe party with some unpleasant views. Under FPTP.

One of those parties is also currently a shambolic coalition of MPs who disagree on most things.

tangled_metal

I wonder what Germany would be like going through a Brexit type of event? Would it really be any better and would that be affected by the PR system?

Also how does FPTP not offer a form of representation if the electorate? I thought it was based on percentage of the electorate voting for them in constituencies. That's representing constituencies not the nation as whole surely?

This obsession with the electoral system is interesting. Does anyone favouring PR view FPTP as a lesser version of democracy or even undemocratic? If not can the systems be rated for level of democracy offered. Perhaps pick the best option as 100 and dictatorship without elections as 1. Where would the various PR types and FPTP fit? Anyone seen a ranking for the various voting systems?

As a layperson I don't really see that it'll make a difference. The two big parties will still end up with most of the power and influence. It'll still have the tendency for stalemate with major issues such as Brexit.

poptart242

Tangled Metal wrote:

As a layperson I don't really see that it'll make a difference. The two big parties will still end up with most of the power and influence. It'll still have the tendency for stalemate with major issues such as Brexit.

I'm a fan of Scotland's hybrid system of elections - FPTP with a regional list decided by PR. Means that you can still support smaller issues without it being seen as a wasted vote. It's meant that independent MSP's have been voted in with regularity over the years, and the likes of the greens are a force too.

poptart242

Poptart242 wrote:

the likes of the greens are a force too.

Of course if this were applied in the current UK political environment, you'd worry about some mad far-right coalition taking hold of....oh wait

Stevo_666

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

Then please account for;

- the vast majority of countries that exist and function perfectly adequately under electoral systems that actually represent the electorate (Germany included).

I gave a specific example of how Germany had no government for over half a year because Merkel had to try several times to form a coalition. How is that perfectly adequate? Also see my example of Italy - hardly functioning perfectly adequately on a political level, is it?

Maybe give me a list of countries apart from Germany and italy that in your opinion function well (with some back up evidence) then I can comment. Fyi I am not saying that FPTP is perfect, just that PR is hardly the solution to these perceived ills.

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

- the current shambolic 'coalition not coalition' between the party that didn't attain an overall majority, and a fringe party with some unpleasant views. Under FPTP.

Not sure how many UK elections recently yielded a party who got the majority of the votes, but under unless that happens under a PR system, the sort of coalition we see here would be par for the course - which is exactly the point I was making in the first place...

Maybe you would prefer Labour propped up by the SNP?

sgt.pepper

KingstonGraham wrote:

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Or else look at other countries with PR. The permanent political paralysis in Italy for example. Or Germany, where there was no government for 6 or 7 months while Merkel tried to negotiate a coalition - and where an extremist fringe party (AfD) has a sizeable representation.

Be careful what you wish for...

Red herrings.

No, the result of no overall majority stemming from their PR system.

Then please account for;

- the vast majority of countries that exist and function perfectly adequately under electoral systems that actually represent the electorate (Germany included).

- the current shambolic 'coalition not coalition' between the party that didn't attain an overall majority, and a fringe party with some unpleasant views. Under FPTP.

One of those parties is also currently a shambolic coalition of MPs who disagree on most things.

Which is relevant to those points because....

Tangled Metal wrote:

I wonder what Germany would be like going through a Brexit type of event? Would it really be any better and would that be affected by the PR system?

Also how does FPTP not offer a form of representation if the electorate? I thought it was based on percentage of the electorate voting for them in constituencies. That's representing constituencies not the nation as whole surely?

This obsession with the electoral system is interesting. Does anyone favouring PR view FPTP as a lesser version of democracy or even undemocratic? If not can the systems be rated for level of democracy offered. Perhaps pick the best option as 100 and dictatorship without elections as 1. Where would the various PR types and FPTP fit? Anyone seen a ranking for the various voting systems?

As a layperson I don't really see that it'll make a difference. The two big parties will still end up with most of the power and influence. It'll still have the tendency for stalemate with major issues such as Brexit.

FPTP disenfranchises people in safe seats and people who want to vote for smaller parties. It also massively skews the votes cast, and forces people to vote 'tactically.' So if I'm a Lib Dem in a seat that is marginal between Labour/Tory, I have to gauge which is 'closest' to my views. If I'm a Green, unless I live in Brighton Pavilion, my vote is worthless.

In 2015, UKIP got 12.6% of the vote and were the third largest party, yet got a single seat (which was a confluence of other circumstances anyway).

It also makes people dependent on the leadership of the two main parties, which means you're screwed if they're run by incompetents and ideologues as the two big parties are currently. It's ridiculous.

Pross

Have we done Onasanya being the first ever MP being recalled via a petition? Can't remember if it was originally discussed on this or another thread. Sets up a by-election in a marginal seat.

Stevo_666

Pross wrote:

Have we done Onasanya being the first ever MP being recalled via a petition? Can't remember if it was originally discussed on this or another thread. Sets up a by-election in a marginal seat.

Nope, but a worthy subject for this thread.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

Pross wrote:

Have we done Onasanya being the first ever MP being recalled via a petition? Can't remember if it was originally discussed on this or another thread. Sets up a by-election in a marginal seat.

Nope, but a worthy subject for this thread.

I wonder whether whatsisname who was recently convicted of fiddling his expenses will join this new club. Would be interesting to see if constituents get taste for their new powers.

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Pross wrote:

Have we done Onasanya being the first ever MP being recalled via a petition? Can't remember if it was originally discussed on this or another thread. Sets up a by-election in a marginal seat.

Nope, but a worthy subject for this thread.

I wonder whether whatsisname who was recently convicted of fiddling his expenses will join this new club. Would be interesting to see if constituents get taste for their new powers.

Possible, but Onasanya is a definite.

sgt.pepper

Stevo 666 wrote:

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

Then please account for;

- the vast majority of countries that exist and function perfectly adequately under electoral systems that actually represent the electorate (Germany included).

I gave a specific example of how Germany had no government for over half a year because Merkel had to try several times to form a coalition. How is that perfectly adequate? Also see my example of Italy - hardly functioning perfectly adequately on a political level, is it?

Maybe give me a list of countries apart from Germany and italy that in your opinion function well (with some back up evidence) then I can comment. Fyi I am not saying that FPTP is perfect, just that PR is hardly the solution to these perceived ills.

New Zealand (where I currently reside), which has MMP, a mix of PR with some token FPTP elements. The current Government has Labour as a main party, with 2 support coalition partners, and is functioning well.

Australia, STV - works well.

All the Scandinavian countries.

Stevo 666 wrote:

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

- the current shambolic 'coalition not coalition' between the party that didn't attain an overall majority, and a fringe party with some unpleasant views. Under FPTP.

Not sure how many UK elections recently yielded a party who got the majority of the votes, but under unless that happens under a PR system, the sort of coalition we see here would be par for the course - which is exactly the point I was making in the first place...

Maybe you would prefer Labour propped up by the SNP?

Strawmen everywhere - if no party gets a majority then that's what the voters want. At least they have their votes accurately represented in Parliament. And I don't see the problem with a Lab/SNP coalition if that's what people vote for. Until Labour went off the deep end, LAB/SNP were generally pretty close so it would actually make sense. Plus, with a proper electoral system, you can defer your vote to another party when the two main ones lose their minds.

Stevo_666

So which UK elections have yielded an overall majority of the vote for any one party then?

tailwindhome

Pross wrote:

Have we done Onasanya being the first ever MP being recalled via a petition? Can't remember if it was originally discussed on this or another thread. Sets up a by-election in a marginal seat.

Ian Paisley Jr being subject to the first recall petition but surviving
Mostly I suspect due to the sheer size of his majority and the inevitability of him winning a resulting by election

The Peterborough constituency is a lot more interesting

Labour Fiona Onasanya 22,950 48.1 +12.5
Conservative Stewart Jackson 22,343 46.8 +7.1
Liberal Democrat Beki Sellick 1,597 3.3 −0.4
Green Fiona Radić 848 1.8 -0.8


Stewart Jackson being a particulary vociferous campaigner on Brexit.

https://twitter.com/BrexitStewart?ref_s ... r%5Eauthor

I think Patrick O Flynn former UKIP MEP is to stand
Farage has said he isn't

You'd think anything other than the Pro Brexit supporters giving Stewart Jackson a clear run would be foolish, but there you go.

rjsterry

Here you go.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... y/CBP-7529



Also.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/in ... n-context/

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Here you go.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... y/CBP-7529



Also.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/in ... n-context/

Pity they disaggregate it into England, Scotland, Wales, and NI. I can see there is more than 50% for some parties in some of the provinces but taken together probably not in recent times at least.

Which takes me back to my point about PR tending to create coalitions where a main party will be propped up by smaller parties, most of whom are not that pleasant or desirable (apart from those nice fluffy Lib Dems, obviously )

orraloon

Stevo 666 wrote:

Which takes me back to my point about PR tending to create coalitions where a main party will be propped up by smaller parties, most of whom are not that pleasant or desirable (apart from those nice fluffy Lib Dems, obviously )

So the current Tory party gummint in name only isn't being propped up by the swivel eyed DUP then? At a bung of £100m per.

Stevo_666

orraloon wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Which takes me back to my point about PR tending to create coalitions where a main party will be propped up by smaller parties, most of whom are not that pleasant or desirable (apart from those nice fluffy Lib Dems, obviously )

So the current Tory party gummint in name only isn't being propped up by the swivel eyed DUP then? At a bung of £100m per.

My point is, go for PR and you can enjoy this sort of thing more often.

I guess you'd be OK with a coalition Labour propped up by the SNP - I suppose the country would be a lot emptier

Stevo_666

And speaking of Labour, here's the ever moderate shadow chancellor posing next to some of his role models on a May day parade...



https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1121711/John-Mcdonnell-labour-party-socialism-jeremy-corbyn-Stalin-chairman-mao-communism-brexit/amp

rick_chasey

Stevo 666 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Here you go.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... y/CBP-7529



Also.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/in ... n-context/

Pity they disaggregate it into England, Scotland, Wales, and NI. I can see there is more than 50% for some parties in some of the provinces but taken together probably not in recent times at least.

Which takes me back to my point about PR tending to create coalitions where a main party will be propped up by smaller parties, most of whom are not that pleasant or desirable (apart from those nice fluffy Lib Dems, obviously )

In reality both labour and the Tories are just coalitions within their own party anyway.

A “bone thrown to the backbenchers” is just another term for a “compromise to the more extreme parts of the coalition”.

Stevo_666

I suppose a party of a certain size is to some extent a coalition. Lib Dems were born of a merger so I suppose were like that once.

rick_chasey

The difference is that there’s less fluidity between different coalitions.

And you can get minority parts taking over the majority bits ala labour.

I think there is less effective criticism of political decisions in FTPT too.

In a coalition each decision is scrutinised by the other members.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

And speaking of Labour, here's the ever moderate shadow chancellor posing next to some of his role models on a May day parade...



https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1121711/John-Mcdonnell-labour-party-socialism-jeremy-corbyn-Stalin-chairman-mao-communism-brexit/amp

The march went past my office. From what I saw McDonnell would have been one of the more moderate there.

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

And speaking of Labour, here's the ever moderate shadow chancellor posing next to some of his role models on a May day parade...



https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1121711/John-Mcdonnell-labour-party-socialism-jeremy-corbyn-Stalin-chairman-mao-communism-brexit/amp

The march went past my office. From what I saw McDonnell would have been one of the more moderate there.

No wonder there friction in the Labour party when the shadow chancellor is happy to be associated with people like that.

orraloon

Probably belongs on the Con party thread but hey. On the subject of (im)moderates, seeing as how I'm now a 'member' of the Tory party I get all these email notifications. My constituency faction (is Airhead Leadsom as MP) have sent out their summer activity agenda. Top of the list has them wetting themselves over an afternoon tea with Rees-Smug. Just shows the sort of sh!te 'democracy' is the dUK's where a v v small number of f-wits control the agenda, appoint their like with the end result of a Parliament full of total dipsh!ts who in the normal world would be told to GTF early doors.

sgt.pepper

Stevo 666 wrote:

orraloon wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Which takes me back to my point about PR tending to create coalitions where a main party will be propped up by smaller parties, most of whom are not that pleasant or desirable (apart from those nice fluffy Lib Dems, obviously )

So the current Tory party gummint in name only isn't being propped up by the swivel eyed DUP then? At a bung of £100m per.

My point is, go for PR and you can enjoy this sort of thing more often.

I guess you'd be OK with a coalition Labour propped up by the SNP - I suppose the country would be a lot emptier

There's nothing wrong with coalitions. There's a lot wrong with voter disenfranchisement, and seats not representing what people vote for.

Stevo_666

orraloon wrote:

Probably belongs on the Con party thread but hey. On the subject of (im)moderates, seeing as how I'm now a 'member' of the Tory party I get all these email notifications. My constituency faction (is Airhead Leadsom as MP) have sent out their summer activity agenda. Top of the list has them wetting themselves over an afternoon tea with Rees-Smug. Just shows the sort of sh!te 'democracy' is the dUK's where a v v small number of f-wits control the agenda, appoint their like with the end result of a Parliament full of total dipsh!ts who in the normal world would be told to GTF early doors.

Would you really prefer to be ruled over by the bloke in the picture above your post?

tailwindhome

Stevo 666 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

As I see it the current issues in parliament are largely because there is no one party with a clear majority. Which is something of an unusual situation in UK politics.

Are we moving towards a four party situation or is this a blip?

I thought we already had Tory, Labour, SNP and Lib Dem - unless you think that one or more of those is insignificant and doesn't really count?

As soon as a party starts to count of offer something attractive to voters, the main 2 just adopt the policy and absorb the party and its supporters.

I'm discounting SNP as a regional party.

The current Left Right model seems to be coming under tremendous strain.

It's not inconceivable that the right will split to Right and Centre Right and Labour to Left and Centre Left.

Whether the centre left swallows the LibDems or coalesces round them remains to be seen.

If you're discounting the SNP who have 56 seats, what's your take on the Lib Dems with 11 seats?

Discounting is probably the wrong word.
They obviously hold a block of seats in the House but so for that matter do the DUP.

The broader issue is whether the coalition known as the Conservative Party and the coalition know as the Labour Party will continue or each fracture.

On the Tory side MPs and prominent figures are now actively campaigning for an opposition party and the ERG have formed a party within a party

On the Labour side Tom Watson has been able to stem the bleed to CHUK in forming his social democratic block within the party, now we'll see a battle for the Labour name.


With regard to Lib Dems, I don't know what their future is will they pull Labour's centre left towards to them or be eclipsed?

To paraphrase Frank Zappa, maybe they're not dead. Maybe the just smell funny.

Stevo_666

TailWindHome wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Shirley Basso wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

As I see it the current issues in parliament are largely because there is no one party with a clear majority. Which is something of an unusual situation in UK politics.

Are we moving towards a four party situation or is this a blip?

I thought we already had Tory, Labour, SNP and Lib Dem - unless you think that one or more of those is insignificant and doesn't really count?

As soon as a party starts to count of offer something attractive to voters, the main 2 just adopt the policy and absorb the party and its supporters.

I'm discounting SNP as a regional party.

The current Left Right model seems to be coming under tremendous strain.

It's not inconceivable that the right will split to Right and Centre Right and Labour to Left and Centre Left.

Whether the centre left swallows the LibDems or coalesces round them remains to be seen.

If you're discounting the SNP who have 56 seats, what's your take on the Lib Dems with 11 seats?

Discounting is probably the wrong word.
They obviously hold a block of seats in the House but so for that matter do the DUP.

The broader issue is whether the coalition known as the Conservative Party and the coalition know as the Labour Party will continue or each fracture.

On the Tory side MPs and prominent figures are now actively campaigning for an opposition party and the ERG have formed a party within a party

On the Labour side Tom Watson has been able to stem the bleed to CHUK in forming his social democratic block within the party, now we'll see a battle for the Labour name.


With regard to Lib Dems, I don't know what their future is will they pull Labour's centre left towards to them or be eclipsed?

To paraphrase Frank Zappa, maybe they're not dead. Maybe the just smell funny.

I certainly agree with you that we are in an interesting and unpredictable period in UK politics.