Join the Labour Party and save your country!

hopkinb

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/soc ... 1106179104

pinno

Uh?!!

'The poppy promotes the glorification of war' ??

In almost every instance from the guy who made 72,000 effigies by hand to remember the dead at the Somme, to the hundreds of thousands of poppies in many exhibited forms, it's all about the countless dead. The poppy is immediately recognisable and associated with those who died.
I am glad the FA simply paid the fine.

This is trendy this PC thing. I think it's so trendy that people are actively seeking things to be PC about.
It is sheer nonsense.
It's contemporary to be PC like it's a moral badge of honour but it also has deep implications and worrying flaws.

Why do so many ex servicemen wear a poppy? Do you think they think that war is glorified by wearing a poppy?
If you do think that, you are morally outraged on some one else's behalf rather wrongly and the Cambridge group have probably no idea of what it it to be actively involved in war. Therefore, they are in no position to make that judgement.

rick_chasey

Yeah pinno it’s not about if they are right or not, it’s about illustrating that for quite a lot of people the meaning has moved on.

Like man with nazi tattoos proudly wearing his poppy.


Did you not read what was written properly?

Stevo_666

I think someone needs to re-read the thread and calm down a bit

The original point we were slating Corbyn for (and the pic of him) was laying a wreath at the grave of known terrorists who carried out the Munich Olympic massacre in the 1970's.

pblakeney

If people have forgotten what it is about then they should be reminded.
If they don't want to be reminded then they can fark off. And take their offence with them.

pinno

Rick Chasey wrote:

Yeah pinno it’s not about if they are right or not, it’s about illustrating that for quite a lot of people the meaning has moved on.

You mean constantly shifting moral values? At what point do you draw a line because if you base things on flawed moral relativism, then you can totally skew history and you have, on more than one occasion.

Rick Chasey wrote:

Like man with nazi tattoos proudly wearing his poppy.

Well that would light the touch paper for you. That tattooed Nazi is in the minority. You cannot then tar the majority (who simply wear a poppy in an act of remembrance and often, has contributed to a charity in the process of acquiring that poppy) because of the actions of a few idiots. There will always be idiots. You cannot legislate for them. Ironically, if you do, you give them reason.

rick_chasey

PBlakeney wrote:

If people have forgotten what it is about then they should be reminded.
.

Curious choice of words for people born in the 21st Century (near enough anyway)

pinno

Didn't know you were a teenager Blakey!

pblakeney

Pinno wrote:

Didn't know you were a teenager Blakey!

In mind only...

pblakeney

Rick Chasey wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

If people have forgotten what it is about then they should be reminded.
.

Curious choice of words for people born in the 21st Century (near enough anyway)

If only there was a way to remind (or teach) them.
Maybe on an annual basis...

pinno

PBlakeney wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

If people have forgotten what it is about then they should be reminded.
.

Curious choice of words for people born in the 21st Century (near enough anyway)

If only there was a way to remind (or teach) them.
Maybe on an annual basis...

You mean... like... a symbol perhaps?

rick_chasey

Pinno wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Yeah pinno it’s not about if they are right or not, it’s about illustrating that for quite a lot of people the meaning has moved on.

You mean constantly shifting moral values? At what point do you draw a line because if you base things on flawed moral relativism, then you can totally skew history and you have, on more than one occasion.

Rick Chasey wrote:

Like man with nazi tattoos proudly wearing his poppy.

Well that would light the touch paper for you. That tattooed Nazi is in the minority. You cannot then tar the majority (who simply wear a poppy in an act of remembrance and often, has contributed to a charity in the process of acquiring that poppy) because of the actions of a few idiots. There will always be idiots. You cannot legislate for them. Ironically, if you do, you give them reason.

If you can’t see a change in what the symbolism means then it’s pointless having this discussion with me. Save yourself the effort.

You ought to consider the state providing proper money for vets so that charities don’t need to perpetuate certain collective memory tropes in order to secure funding. Would save everyone some hassle.

We must all see that it’s ridiculous that vets need to rely on a charity to support them.

surrey_commuter

Rick Chasey wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Be interesting on Sunday when the leader of HM Opposition lays a wreath at the Cenotaph.
Perhaps afterwards he will claim to have been there but can't remember laying a wreath.
I attach a pic, lest we forget.

[img]<span%20class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2018/08/13/17/10389288-655005147930072-2863546592063103558-n.jpg?w968h681</span>[/img]

Btw Labour's complaint to IPSO regarding the reporting of Jeremy paying his respects, was quietly dropped at the beginning of October.

F@cking hell poppy outrage is the sharp end of the right wing equivalent of identify politics.

WW1 finished 100 years ago and plainly plenty of people see remebrence day as war christmas, complete with decorations, specialist stands, “outrage” over how it’s celebrated and an overly long build up. It has long since moved beyond being a way to remember how sh!t war is and it’s ridiculous that a charity needs to manufacture a peculiar type of collective memory for the purposes of fund raising for veterans, rather than the govt doing the right thing and appropriately compensation veterans for doing what plenty of us would loathe to do.

There are plenty of better ways to rubbish Corbyn. If you want to persuade those of a more left wing and/or less bellicose nature, going after a politicians role in Remembrance Sunday isn’t gonna cut it is it?

The whole debate is ******* moronic and the whole thing should be done away with.

Whilst I agree that grief one upmanship seems to be escalating are you really suggesting that we do away with the poppy or Remembrance Sunday?

Why not? The people who are most interested probably closely correlate with the most bellicose.

Because both were started by the people who survived the butchery. To me the disdain for the common man’s life is a shameful stain on this country’s ruling classes. To me the acts of remembrance help ensure there is no repetition.

How very 20th Century.

Take a look at what the poppy police say about football players who chose not to wear one, and tell me it’s still about that.

It’s been coopted as part of the broader culture wars and should be retired as such. Gives too much cover for people who ought not get it.

Self appointed poppy police are snowflakes so can be ignored.

The footballers should up the ante and accuse them of transphobia

That's fine if you want to do that, but I would suggest giving some thought to the cause of Cambridge uni students voting down a motion to promote remembrance Sunday.

Now, you can agree with the sentiment or not, I imagine most won't, but look beyond the student stereotype and you have a bunch of (likely) smart people who have decided that remebrance Sunday glorifies war, so I'd suggest that those of an older generation are missing this change of meaning.

The telegraph reports it fairly straightforwardly.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2 ... ts-reject/

Cambridge University’s Student Union (CUSU) has voted down a motion to promote Remembrance Sunday amid fears about the “glorification” of conflict.

The move came after an amendment was voted through, which noted the efforts of various organisations to “reshape remembrance away from glorification and valorisation of war” and to campaign “against militarism”.

If you go further down.

Instead, Ms Swain argued that “all lives lost and affected by war” should be commemorated and that students should be encouraged to engage in “productive criticism” of war.

A spokesman for Cambridge Students’ Union said: “Discussions were not about erasing the past, but rather broadening the focus of our remembrance to include those who suffered and died wherever they were in the world.

“We are a global university with students drawn from more than 120 countries, many of whom choose to recognise Remembrance in different ways.”

so clearly they feel that the poppy is no longer what you SC take it to mean.

Smart people can still be ignorant. And to lazy to get their sorry behinds down to their local war memorial and see how much glorification or celebration is going on.

Or of course they are just doing something controversial to get their 15 minutes of fame.

pinno

Rick Chasey wrote:

We must all see that it’s ridiculous that vets need to rely on a charity to support them.

That is an entirely different matter.
Many key and indispensable charitable institutions rely on voluntary donations and many of them should be funded by government.

rick_chasey

So SC you don’t think it’s been coopted by bellicose people, usually on the right?

bompington

Rick Chasey wrote:

So SC you don’t think it’s been coopted by bellicose people, usually on the right?

So maybe it has. So what? Why do we have to let them decide what it means? Why, for goodness' sake, do we have to let student politicians - always the ones who can be relied on to demonstrate that intelligence is no guarantee of getting something right - decide?

Your attitude, Rick, stinks of the kind of politician who tries to diss something he doesn't like by finding the most extreme and unrepresentative associations he can to stain it with.

Vino'sGhost

Rick Chasey wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Be interesting on Sunday when the leader of HM Opposition lays a wreath at the Cenotaph.
Perhaps afterwards he will claim to have been there but can't remember laying a wreath.
I attach a pic, lest we forget.

[img]<span%20class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2018/08/13/17/10389288-655005147930072-2863546592063103558-n.jpg?w968h681</span>[/img]

Btw Labour's complaint to IPSO regarding the reporting of Jeremy paying his respects, was quietly dropped at the beginning of October.

F@cking hell poppy outrage is the sharp end of the right wing equivalent of identify politics.

WW1 finished 100 years ago and plainly plenty of people see remebrence day as war christmas, complete with decorations, specialist stands, “outrage” over how it’s celebrated and an overly long build up. It has long since moved beyond being a way to remember how sh!t war is and it’s ridiculous that a charity needs to manufacture a peculiar type of collective memory for the purposes of fund raising for veterans, rather than the govt doing the right thing and appropriately compensation veterans for doing what plenty of us would loathe to do.

There are plenty of better ways to rubbish Corbyn. If you want to persuade those of a more left wing and/or less bellicose nature, going after a politicians role in Remembrance Sunday isn’t gonna cut it is it?

The whole debate is ******* moronic and the whole thing should be done away with.

Whilst I agree that grief one upmanship seems to be escalating are you really suggesting that we do away with the poppy or Remembrance Sunday?

Why not? The people who are most interested probably closely correlate with the most bellicose.

Because both were started by the people who survived the butchery. To me the disdain for the common man’s life is a shameful stain on this country’s ruling classes. To me the acts of remembrance help ensure there is no repetition.

How very 20th Century.

Take a look at what the poppy police say about football players who chose not to wear one, and tell me it’s still about that.

It’s been coopted as part of the broader culture wars and should be retired as such. Gives too much cover for people who ought not get it.

Self appointed poppy police are snowflakes so can be ignored.

The footballers should up the ante and accuse them of transphobia

That's fine if you want to do that, but I would suggest giving some thought to the cause of Cambridge uni students voting down a motion to promote remembrance Sunday.

Now, you can agree with the sentiment or not, I imagine most won't, but look beyond the student stereotype and you have a bunch of (likely) smart people who have decided that remebrance Sunday glorifies war, so I'd suggest that those of an older generation are missing this change of meaning.

The telegraph reports it fairly straightforwardly.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2 ... ts-reject/

Cambridge University’s Student Union (CUSU) has voted down a motion to promote Remembrance Sunday amid fears about the “glorification” of conflict.

The move came after an amendment was voted through, which noted the efforts of various organisations to “reshape remembrance away from glorification and valorisation of war” and to campaign “against militarism”.

If you go further down.

Instead, Ms Swain argued that “all lives lost and affected by war” should be commemorated and that students should be encouraged to engage in “productive criticism” of war.

A spokesman for Cambridge Students’ Union said: “Discussions were not about erasing the past, but rather broadening the focus of our remembrance to include those who suffered and died wherever they were in the world.

“We are a global university with students drawn from more than 120 countries, many of whom choose to recognise Remembrance in different ways.”

so clearly they feel that the poppy is no longer what you SC take it to mean.

They might feel like that it's true. But thats because theyre children with no comprehension.

As a nation it is our duty to educate our children, it might help them to avoid the mistakes of the past. I don't let my children change the rules relating to respecting others just because they think they're adults or when they grow up they'd join the entitled stupid masses.

Vino'sGhost

bompington wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So SC you don’t think it’s been coopted by bellicose people, usually on the right?

So maybe it has. So what? Why do we have to let them decide what it means? Why, for goodness' sake, do we have to let student politicians - always the ones who can be relied on to demonstrate that intelligence is no guarantee of getting something right - decide?

Your attitude, Rick, stinks of the kind of politician who tries to diss something he doesn't like by finding the most extreme and unrepresentative associations he can to stain it with.

I think hes just signalling bompington.

rick_chasey

You know I used the student illustration as it was near to hand and the article articulate it straightforwardly.

You know what that means guys, right? When something is illustrative and an example? I could have showed a bunch of EDL flags and their reverence for the poppy, but they aren’t as articulate, so I’d have to do more heavy lifting.

Bluntly, I think you lot are naive if you think the whole thing is still fit for purpose, and naive to think that meanings don’t change over time.

No point going round in circles if you don’t think that.

Vino'sGhost

Rick Chasey wrote:

You know I used the student illustration as it was near to hand and the article articulate it straightforwardly.

You know what that means guys, right? When something is illustrative and an example? I could have showed a bunch of EDL flags and their reverence for the poppy, but they aren’t as articulate, so I’d have to do more heavy lifting.

Bluntly, I think you lot are naive if you think the whole thing is still fit for purpose, and naive to think that meanings don’t change over time.

No point going round in circles if you don’t think that.

No one is naive, many people might chose to use the poppy for their own ends but that doesn't mean it should be discarded rather than defend its meaning. In this instance the alternative is what? Jeremy Corbyns terrorist and communist appeasement? or do you mean that the terrible losses and sacrifices no longer have meaning or virtue either? is spineless the new Lion?

The EU needs changing because its not fit for purpose but this act of remembrance has a different purpose and value and is very definitely still relevant today

bompington

Rick Chasey wrote:

Bluntly, I think you lot are naive if you think the whole thing is still fit for purpose, and naive to think that meanings don’t change over time.

Oh dear, a liberal who doesn't understand constructivism.

Bluntly, you have chosen to construct a meaning based on the actions of a small bunch of extremists, because it suits your agenda. The rest of us are choosing to continue with a meaning that has gained wide understanding over a long period.

No point going round in circles if you don't think.

rick_chasey

bompington wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Bluntly, I think you lot are naive if you think the whole thing is still fit for purpose, and naive to think that meanings don’t change over time.

Oh dear, a liberal who doesn't understand constructivism.

Bluntly, you have chosen to construct a meaning based on the actions of a small bunch of extremists, because it suits your agenda. The rest of us are choosing to continue with a meaning that has gained wide understanding over a long period.

No point going round in circles if you don't think.

Fair. We'll disagree in which case. Nor do I think it's particularly a minority.

Ultimately a charity for veterans that relies on a particular form of collective memory and remembrance is a sub-optimal way of going about raising funds, and the appropriation of said collective remembrance by competing sides of a contemporary culture way is an illustration of why it is sub-optimal.

pinno

bompington wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Bluntly, I think you lot are naive if you think the whole thing is still fit for purpose, and naive to think that meanings don’t change over time.

Oh dear, a liberal who doesn't understand constructivism.

You didn't mention the shifting sands that is moral relativism.

So what would be 'appropriate' as a symbol/act of remembrance RC?

Vino'sGhost

Pinno wrote:

bompington wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Bluntly, I think you lot are naive if you think the whole thing is still fit for purpose, and naive to think that meanings don’t change over time.

Oh dear, a liberal who doesn't understand constructivism.

You didn't mention the shifting sands that is moral relativism.

So what would be 'appropriate' as a symbol/act of remembrance RC?

embracing terrorists.

surrey_commuter

Rick Chasey wrote:

So SC you don’t think it’s been coopted by bellicose people, usually on the right?

No I don’t. At worst it is a convenient stick to beat those who are already on their sh1t list such as NI Catholic’s and Muslims.

They appear to be too stupid to form an opinion on whether Matic’s refusal to wear a poppy is offensive or not.

robert88

I think people should either wear poppies or not wear them and it's their choice.

Otherwise it gets a bit fascist which is ironic given the point (allegedly) of the last world war.

Unfortunate about Corbyn, I don't really know what to make of the guy. I don't have to vote for him.

I think we are becoming more fascist anyway.

surrey_commuter

Pinno wrote:

bompington wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Bluntly, I think you lot are naive if you think the whole thing is still fit for purpose, and naive to think that meanings don’t change over time.

Oh dear, a liberal who doesn't understand constructivism.

You didn't mention the shifting sands that is moral relativism.

So what would be 'appropriate' as a symbol/act of remembrance RC?

At the end of the war the it was said that a man on horseback could see another man on horseback across the ruins of Ypres. Churchill proposed leaving it in this state as a fitting memorial to those who lost their lives. The locals disagreed, understandably. What they did do was build the Menin Gate upon which is inscribed the names of all those who marched out to the battlefield and were never seen again. This means that they were so comprehensively smashed to bits that there was nothing left. Every night at 8pm there is a ceremony at the Gate culminating in the fire brigade buglers playing the last post. If they were to do that for every name inscribed on the memorial (so just those they never found) it would take them 149 years. Imagine how long they would need to include all casualties.

To me the playing of the last post by a handful of buglers is inconsequential compared to a man’s life so maybe a fitting act of remembrance would be to play the last post every night at every war memorial.

pinno

Surrey Commuter wrote:

... so maybe a fitting act of remembrance would be to play the last post every night at every war memorial.

Is that tongue in cheek or do you really think that is practical?
If you do something often enough, it simply becomes routine.

rick_chasey

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

You know I used the student illustration as it was near to hand and the article articulate it straightforwardly.

You know what that means guys, right? When something is illustrative and an example? I could have showed a bunch of EDL flags and their reverence for the poppy, but they aren’t as articulate, so I’d have to do more heavy lifting.

Bluntly, I think you lot are naive if you think the whole thing is still fit for purpose, and naive to think that meanings don’t change over time.

No point going round in circles if you don’t think that.

No one is naive, many people might chose to use the poppy for their own ends but that doesn't mean it should be discarded rather than defend its meaning. In this instance the alternative is what? Jeremy Corbyns terrorist and communist appeasement? or do you mean that the terrible losses and sacrifices no longer have meaning or virtue either? is spineless the new Lion?

The EU needs changing because its not fit for purpose but this act of remembrance has a different purpose and value and is very definitely still relevant today

Maybe I’m of a different generation but 100 years after the event seems long enough, no? I mean, even most people who remember people who fought in it will be dead too by now.

I think that partly explains the proliferation of war Christmas type displays; (take a good look at Waterloo when you next pass through. That’s not somber reflection - that’s poppy stuff used like it’s tinsel at Xmas), it’s so far removed from what it is.

In that intervening 100 years the U.K. has been involved in some morally more complicated wars and battles too and that adds a level of murkiness to it, and undoubtedly politicises it further.

Out of interest, at what point do you draw the line re war “sacrifices” and memory? Or is it always anchored in the First World War?

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Be interesting on Sunday when the leader of HM Opposition lays a wreath at the Cenotaph.
Perhaps afterwards he will claim to have been there but can't remember laying a wreath.
I attach a pic, lest we forget.

[img]<span%20class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2018/08/13/17/10389288-655005147930072-2863546592063103558-n.jpg?w968h681</span>[/img]

Btw Labour's complaint to IPSO regarding the reporting of Jeremy paying his respects, was quietly dropped at the beginning of October.

F@cking hell poppy outrage is the sharp end of the right wing equivalent of identify politics.

WW1 finished 100 years ago and plainly plenty of people see remebrence day as war christmas, complete with decorations, specialist stands, “outrage” over how it’s celebrated and an overly long build up. It has long since moved beyond being a way to remember how sh!t war is and it’s ridiculous that a charity needs to manufacture a peculiar type of collective memory for the purposes of fund raising for veterans, rather than the govt doing the right thing and appropriately compensation veterans for doing what plenty of us would loathe to do.

There are plenty of better ways to rubbish Corbyn. If you want to persuade those of a more left wing and/or less bellicose nature, going after a politicians role in Remembrance Sunday isn’t gonna cut it is it?

The whole debate is ******* moronic and the whole thing should be done away with.

Whilst I agree that grief one upmanship seems to be escalating are you really suggesting that we do away with the poppy or Remembrance Sunday?

Why not? The people who are most interested probably closely correlate with the most bellicose.

Because both were started by the people who survived the butchery. To me the disdain for the common man’s life is a shameful stain on this country’s ruling classes. To me the acts of remembrance help ensure there is no repetition.

How very 20th Century.

Take a look at what the poppy police say about football players who chose not to wear one, and tell me it’s still about that.

It’s been coopted as part of the broader culture wars and should be retired as such. Gives too much cover for people who ought not get it.

Self appointed poppy police are snowflakes so can be ignored.

The footballers should up the ante and accuse them of transphobia

That's fine if you want to do that, but I would suggest giving some thought to the cause of Cambridge uni students voting down a motion to promote remembrance Sunday.

Now, you can agree with the sentiment or not, I imagine most won't, but look beyond the student stereotype and you have a bunch of (likely) smart people who have decided that remebrance Sunday glorifies war, so I'd suggest that those of an older generation are missing this change of meaning.

The telegraph reports it fairly straightforwardly.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2 ... ts-reject/

Cambridge University’s Student Union (CUSU) has voted down a motion to promote Remembrance Sunday amid fears about the “glorification” of conflict.

The move came after an amendment was voted through, which noted the efforts of various organisations to “reshape remembrance away from glorification and valorisation of war” and to campaign “against militarism”.

If you go further down.

Instead, Ms Swain argued that “all lives lost and affected by war” should be commemorated and that students should be encouraged to engage in “productive criticism” of war.

A spokesman for Cambridge Students’ Union said: “Discussions were not about erasing the past, but rather broadening the focus of our remembrance to include those who suffered and died wherever they were in the world.

“We are a global university with students drawn from more than 120 countries, many of whom choose to recognise Remembrance in different ways.”

so clearly they feel that the poppy is no longer what you SC take it to mean.

Maybe Cambridge needs to up its entry requirements if its students think Remembrance Sunday and wearing a poppy is a glorification of war. I'm pretty sure I remember being taught the meaning when I was still at junior school. I'm not sure the charity relies that much on collective memory, what with the British armed forces being involved in one war or another in every decade since WW2. And if we are worried about a few f***wits tattooed with swastikas trying to appropriate the poppy for their agenda, the solution is not to abandon the symbol of the poppy, as this just makes the misappropriation all the easier.

Given how lightly our political leaders send people off to war, clearly a more - not less - contemplation of the horror it involves is needed.