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surrey_commuter

Pinno wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

... so maybe a fitting act of remembrance would be to play the last post every night at every war memorial.

Is that tongue in cheek or do you really think that is practical?
If you do something often enough, it simply becomes routine.

Sort of tongue in cheek in an attempt to put the slaughter into some sort of perspective.

So no I don’t think remembrance should be limited to 100 years.

rick_chasey

RJS - I think somewhere I read a piece of research that said a third of under 25s recon it does glorify war.

surrey_commuter

Tell me this and a half minute clip is not poignant

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W6MqLCqNroE

ballysmate

Rick Chasey wrote:

RJS - I think somewhere I read a piece of research that said a third of under 25s recon it does glorify war.

And people say that this country isn't dumbing down?

surrey_commuter

Rick Chasey wrote:

RJS - I think somewhere I read a piece of research that said a third of under 25s recon it does glorify war.

Wtf is wrong with these people?

And why should we stop remembering the dead because some lazy fvcks can not be bothered to watch a remembrance ceremony and see there is no hint of celebration

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

RJS - I think somewhere I read a piece of research that said a third of under 25s recon it does glorify war.

That suggests ignorance rather than a changing meaning. Maybe the RBL need to step up visits to schools now that the likelihood of having a living relative who has fought in a war is so much lower.

Edit: SC puts it more bluntly .

Jez mon

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RJS - I think somewhere I read a piece of research that said a third of under 25s recon it does glorify war.

That suggests ignorance rather than a changing meaning. Maybe the RBL need to step up visits to schools now that the likelihood of having a living relative who has fought in a war is so much lower.

Edit: SC puts it more bluntly .

Seem to busy coating every lamp post in single use floppy plastic poppies...

I do think poppy wearing has (for some) become a fork of virtue signalling (from a group that claim to hate virtue signalling) and less about a) remembering the horrors of the world war, and b) trying to work towards not repeating those horrors.

pblakeney

Rick Chasey wrote:

Maybe I’m of a different generation but 100 years after the event seems long enough, no? I mean, even most people who remember people who fought in it will be dead too by now.

And there is the point... The remembrance is for them, especially the long departed, by us.
I wonder how many generations it will take to forget, and get an all too real reminder.

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RJS - I think somewhere I read a piece of research that said a third of under 25s recon it does glorify war.

That suggests ignorance rather than a changing meaning. Maybe the RBL need to step up visits to schools now that the likelihood of having a living relative who has fought in a war is so much lower.

Edit: SC puts it more bluntly .

Unfortunately there are ignorant, ungrateful tw@ts in every generation and one function of society is to minimise this problem.

Stevo_666

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RJS - I think somewhere I read a piece of research that said a third of under 25s recon it does glorify war.

Wtf is wrong with these people?

And why should we stop remembering the dead because some lazy fvcks can not be bothered to watch a remembrance ceremony and see there is no hint of celebration

+1

Fortunately two thirds don't.

pinno

Rick Chasey wrote:

In that intervening 100 years the U.K. has been involved in some morally more complicated wars and battles too and that adds a level of murkiness to it, and undoubtedly politicises it further.

So you are sprinkling some subjectivism into the pot?! In other words, some died in valiant campaigns and some died in less valiant campaigns!!
So we should remember those who WE THINK died honourably and not remember those who died in controversial war. What are you saying?

Remembrance day is a day to remember all the people who served and died in conflict. Perhaps the 1st WW and the Poppy growing so readily on the graves of the dead is remembered most. Coupled with the wholesale (and often futile) slaughter of those in that barbaric conflict.
Perhaps you think that the allied dead who defeated Nazi Germany are more worthy individuals to recognise? Careful...
Does that war require some other form of symbolism?

The 1st WW may be 100 years ago but there was the 2nd WW and many conflicts since then and many within living memory.
Perhaps and to the majority (much to the chagrin of those select individuals in Cambridge of high moral intellect), the poppy will be the symbol associated with all conflict, given time.

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RJS - I think somewhere I read a piece of research that said a third of under 25s recon it does glorify war.

That suggests ignorance rather than a changing meaning.

There’s nothing offered for why that’s the case. It doesn’t suggest anything.

Your civilian casualties do not get their name inscribed on a well thought out memorial to be ‘remebered’ every year however, so there is a remebrence hierarchy, wouldn’t you say?

Now I appreciate in the context of WW1 civilian and combatant is not a clear distinction as plenty of civilians were pressed into combat and stuck out atrocious conditions. That’s not as much the case later on however.

pblakeney

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RJS - I think somewhere I read a piece of research that said a third of under 25s recon it does glorify war.

That suggests ignorance rather than a changing meaning.

There’s nothing offered for why that’s the case. It doesn’t suggest anything.

Your civilian casualties do not get their name inscribed on a well thought out memorial to be ‘remebered’ every year however, so there is a remebrence hierarchy, wouldn’t you say?

Now I appreciate in the context of WW1 civilian and combatant is not a clear distinction as plenty of civilians were pressed into combat and stuck out atrocious conditions. That’s not as much the case later on however.

Yes, I did suggest a reason: those of us born in the '70s and '80s were probably the last generation to have grown up with living grandparents who fought in WW2. Conscription ended in 1960, so under-25s are far less likely to know someone who has seen active service.

Vino'sGhost

Rick Chasey wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

You know I used the student illustration as it was near to hand and the article articulate it straightforwardly.

You know what that means guys, right? When something is illustrative and an example? I could have showed a bunch of EDL flags and their reverence for the poppy, but they aren’t as articulate, so I’d have to do more heavy lifting.

Bluntly, I think you lot are naive if you think the whole thing is still fit for purpose, and naive to think that meanings don’t change over time.

No point going round in circles if you don’t think that.

No one is naive, many people might chose to use the poppy for their own ends but that doesn't mean it should be discarded rather than defend its meaning. In this instance the alternative is what? Jeremy Corbyns terrorist and communist appeasement? or do you mean that the terrible losses and sacrifices no longer have meaning or virtue either? is spineless the new Lion?

The EU needs changing because its not fit for purpose but this act of remembrance has a different purpose and value and is very definitely still relevant today

Maybe I’m of a different generation but 100 years after the event seems long enough, no? I mean, even most people who remember people who fought in it will be dead too by now.

I think that partly explains the proliferation of war Christmas type displays; (take a good look at Waterloo when you next pass through. That’s not somber reflection - that’s poppy stuff used like it’s tinsel at Xmas), it’s so far removed from what it is.

In that intervening 100 years the U.K. has been involved in some morally more complicated wars and battles too and that adds a level of murkiness to it, and undoubtedly politicises it further.

Out of interest, at what point do you draw the line re war “sacrifices” and memory? Or is it always anchored in the First World War?

I think it’s a good thing you have these opinions Rick, it means the sacrifices of others are not without value.

I just have a slightly more firsthand experience and believe that a collective pause to remember and think has a value to society. You might enjoy riding your bike and visiting some of the cemeteries, their scale is humbling.

rick_chasey

I do find the assumption I haven’t visited the memorials curious.

FWIW I have even been a participant in a Remembrance Day ceremony at Tyne Cot as a teenager, so I know the deal.

tangled_metal

I've been to a remembrance day ceremony so my opinions carry weight? No your opinions carry weight for the merit of your arguments. I just don't think they have merit.

Cambridge students have no influence over my opinions. Why should they?

Remembrance is about wwi only is wrong. It's about glorification of war is superficial.

You say you went to a ceremony as a teenager? A good few years ago now. Can I suggest you go to one this Sunday, a big one if possible. Don't concentrate on the service or what's happening. Don't look at who's wearing a poppy or any superficiality like that. Look at those present, the faces and the emotions on show.

Then come back and tell us what you think.

I'm sorry but my views on this human event called remembrance day got changed by going to a ceremony on top of one of our mountains donated to the nation in remembrance of those who died in WWI. That was great gable in the lakes. There were three such hills in that region iirc including the highest hill in England. Every remembrance sunday people assemble on top of the mountain for a ceremony. I did it on a very cold and bitter day. A day of snow, ice and really bad windchill. Several hundred turned up for a ceremony. Moving and respectful. With veterans present showing raw emotion no doubt thinking of their dead from very recent action.

It has meaning! You can be as clever as you like with your arguments, just like the Cambridge students, but that will never change the emotion and the meaning of remembrance.

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

I do find the assumption I haven’t visited the memorials curious.

FWIW I have even been a participant in a Remembrance Day ceremony at Tyne Cot as a teenager, so I know the deal.

Almost as curious as a history graduate describing WW1 as morally less complicated

Of course the meaning of symbols can become changed and distorted over time - look at the St George's flag - but the answer is not to abandon the symbol to those that have distorted it but to reclaim and renew it.

tangled_metal

I forgot to mention that flag several pages back as a good example of a symbol that you taken over by an unsavoury minority then reclaimed by the majority.

If RC was right about the poppy and remembrance day then it's true meaning needs reclaiming.

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I do find the assumption I haven’t visited the memorials curious.

FWIW I have even been a participant in a Remembrance Day ceremony at Tyne Cot as a teenager, so I know the deal.

Almost as curious as a history graduate describing WW1 as morally less complicated

Of course the meaning of symbols can become changed and distorted over time - look at the St George's flag - but the answer is not to abandon the symbol to those that have distorted it but to reclaim and renew it.

I guess for me it made sense when more or less every person grieved because more or less everyone was connected to the deaths in some way or other.

100 years on that is no longer the case, and trying to pretend to share grief with families of more recent dead (Iraq, Fauklsnds etc) seems a little intrusive on their grief which they share every day, rather than one Sunday a year.

You can respect their grief and even sympathise with it but to pretend to grieve yourself is a bit of a con.

And when you do go to the memorial this Sunday, have a quick count of the number of Union jacks you see. It’s a day that is inextricably linked to nationalism and is it not nationalism that contributed hugely to the deaths that are being remembered?

pinno

Rick Chasey wrote:

It’s a day that is inextricably linked to nationalism and is it not nationalism that contributed hugely to the deaths that are being remembered?

More subjectivism?

Are the deaths of soldiers less significant because they were simply pawns in political gaming?!
You haven't addressed my previous post at all.

bondurant

Pretending to grieve?

Well, yes, if people actually do that. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but putting aside a few minutes every year to remember and respect the dead is what it is about personally.

The number of union flags...what? Is there a threshold below which it is not nationalistic?

rick_chasey

Pinno wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

It’s a day that is inextricably linked to nationalism and is it not nationalism that contributed hugely to the deaths that are being remembered?

More subjectivism?

Are the deaths of soldiers less significant because they were simply pawns in political gaming?!
You haven't addressed my previous post at all.

Whenever I read your response posts I feel like you haven’t really understood what I’ve written so it makes sense for both of us not to keep replying, since we plainly don’t understand each other.

rick_chasey

Tangled Metal wrote:

I've been to a remembrance day ceremony so my opinions carry weight? No your opinions carry weight for the merit of your arguments. I just don't think they have merit.

Cambridge students have no influence over my opinions. Why should they?

I’ve not said or implied either.

One was just to address an assumption in some posts, the other was an illustration of a wider trend.

rick_chasey

For some related fun, have a gander here: https://twitter.com/giantpoppywatch

Poppy ice cream and pizzas are a personal fave.

tangled_metal

One of our armed services is called British army. The union Jack is the flag of Britain. We're remembering the sacrifice of people serving in British armed forces and the flags of armed forces often include the Union Jack. I see no issue with it being present.

I'd be bothered if it wasn't present.

pblakeney

Mostly the navy though.

tangled_metal

PBlakeney wrote:

Mostly the navy though.

I've never seen the navy represented at remembrance events but I've never lived near a naval port. In fact air force too. Only army veterans where I've lived. So I can only comment on their use of flags. Experience based views expressed.

shirley_basso

union flag = land; jack at sea.

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I do find the assumption I haven’t visited the memorials curious.

FWIW I have even been a participant in a Remembrance Day ceremony at Tyne Cot as a teenager, so I know the deal.

Almost as curious as a history graduate describing WW1 as morally less complicated

Of course the meaning of symbols can become changed and distorted over time - look at the St George's flag - but the answer is not to abandon the symbol to those that have distorted it but to reclaim and renew it.

I guess for me it made sense when more or less every person grieved because more or less everyone was connected to the deaths in some way or other.

100 years on that is no longer the case, and trying to pretend to share grief with families of more recent dead (Iraq, Fauklsnds etc) seems a little intrusive on their grief which they share every day, rather than one Sunday a year.

You can respect their grief and even sympathise with it but to pretend to grieve yourself is a bit of a con.

And when you do go to the memorial this Sunday, have a quick count of the number of Union jacks you see. It’s a day that is inextricably linked to nationalism and is it not nationalism that contributed hugely to the deaths that are being remembered?

I don't think it's a question of grieving (artificially or otherwise) for those in the military who have given their lives or were injured. It's about paying respect and awareness of what was given. As for display of the Union Flag, just because the likes of the EDL like waving it as well - for very different reasons - doesn't mean the rest of us should be embarrassed about it or allow those imbeciles to decide what our national flag stands for.