BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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Literally the point I’m making.pblakeney said:
Try finding a good butcher. More expensive than a supermarket but ultimately better value for money, if you taste the difference.rick_chasey said:
As I said upthread, apart from turbo expensive luxury meat, the quality is pretty poorsurrey_commuter said:
Thanks jimmyjams I am starting to realise that British farming belongs in a box with the NHS for revered things that must never be criticised that the rest of the world think is a bit censoredjimmyjams said:rjsterry said:I'm aware of the reputational damage as a relic of BSE and the associated commercially motivated hysteria. Which was getting on for 40 years ago.
BSE was not 40 years ago. Bans on the import of british lamb to the USA were introduced in the early 1980s (and I believe still exist), following major outbreaks of foot&mouth in the UK during the late 1960s and again in the early 1980s (and again in 2001).surrey_commuter said:Check out the widespread decades long bans over BSE and foot and mouth disease when we poisoned the food chain
The EU ban on british beef exports to the EU and the American ban on imports to the USA, because of BSE, were introduced in 1996. The EU restrictions were gradually relaxed over a decade or so, while I think it was only about 18 months ago the USA again accepted the import of british beef.
Because of BSE, China banned the import of british beef in 1998 and only lifted the ban in 2018, but following a few new BSE cases in the UK during 2018 and 2019, China didn't actually ever start importing british beef again, so wary were they.
A new case of BSE in Somerset during 2021, prompted the Chinese to re-introduce some partial restrictions on the import of british beef, so they probably still haven't started importing any british beef yet.
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rick_chasey said:
It wasn’t so long ago Irish British and Dutch farmers were passing off horse meat for beefrjsterry said:
There's plenty to criticise*. It's also possible that the rest of the world's view is inaccurate. There's a long history of disease being attached to foreigners: we used to call syphilis 'French Pox'. The French referred to it as the Neapolitan disease.surrey_commuter said:
Thanks jimmyjams I am starting to realise that British farming belongs in a box with the NHS for revered things that must never be criticised that the rest of the world think is a bit censoredjimmyjams said:rjsterry said:I'm aware of the reputational damage as a relic of BSE and the associated commercially motivated hysteria. Which was getting on for 40 years ago.
BSE was not 40 years ago. Bans on the import of british lamb to the USA were introduced in the early 1980s (and I believe still exist), following major outbreaks of foot&mouth in the UK during the late 1960s and again in the early 1980s (and again in 2001).surrey_commuter said:Check out the widespread decades long bans over BSE and foot and mouth disease when we poisoned the food chain
The EU ban on british beef exports to the EU and the American ban on imports to the USA, because of BSE, were introduced in 1996. The EU restrictions were gradually relaxed over a decade or so, while I think it was only about 18 months ago the USA again accepted the import of british beef.
Because of BSE, China banned the import of british beef in 1998 and only lifted the ban in 2018, but following a few new BSE cases in the UK during 2018 and 2019, China didn't actually ever start importing british beef again, so wary were they.
A new case of BSE in Somerset during 2021, prompted the Chinese to re-introduce some partial restrictions on the import of british beef, so they probably still haven't started importing any british beef yet.
*Were my dad still around he could fill a podcast with stories of poor husbandry and abbatoir malpractice. He also had a very clear league table of supermarket meat. But people are much the same the world over: some are careful and conscientious and some are lazy and careless.
Not the farmers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_horse_meat_scandal
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Meat producers rather than farmers. Beef farmers aren't going to have any horses, are they? Don't kid yourself this stuff doesn't happen elsewhere. For example.rick_chasey said:
It wasn’t so long ago Irish British and Dutch farmers were passing off horse meat for beefrjsterry said:
There's plenty to criticise*. It's also possible that the rest of the world's view is inaccurate. There's a long history of disease being attached to foreigners: we used to call syphilis 'French Pox'. The French referred to it as the Neapolitan disease.surrey_commuter said:
Thanks jimmyjams I am starting to realise that British farming belongs in a box with the NHS for revered things that must never be criticised that the rest of the world think is a bit censoredjimmyjams said:rjsterry said:I'm aware of the reputational damage as a relic of BSE and the associated commercially motivated hysteria. Which was getting on for 40 years ago.
BSE was not 40 years ago. Bans on the import of british lamb to the USA were introduced in the early 1980s (and I believe still exist), following major outbreaks of foot&mouth in the UK during the late 1960s and again in the early 1980s (and again in 2001).surrey_commuter said:Check out the widespread decades long bans over BSE and foot and mouth disease when we poisoned the food chain
The EU ban on british beef exports to the EU and the American ban on imports to the USA, because of BSE, were introduced in 1996. The EU restrictions were gradually relaxed over a decade or so, while I think it was only about 18 months ago the USA again accepted the import of british beef.
Because of BSE, China banned the import of british beef in 1998 and only lifted the ban in 2018, but following a few new BSE cases in the UK during 2018 and 2019, China didn't actually ever start importing british beef again, so wary were they.
A new case of BSE in Somerset during 2021, prompted the Chinese to re-introduce some partial restrictions on the import of british beef, so they probably still haven't started importing any british beef yet.
*Were my dad still around he could fill a podcast with stories of poor husbandry and abbatoir malpractice. He also had a very clear league table of supermarket meat. But people are much the same the world over: some are careful and conscientious and some are lazy and careless.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/operation-weak-flesh-its-impact-argentine-beef-exports-aldo-leporati1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
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rick_chasey said:
Sure, I just don’t get the parochialism about food.
Isn't caring about how and where your food is produced understandable? And that if the chains to get it onto your plate are shorter, it's less likely to have had horsemeat added?0 -
Sure. But British meat isn’t all thatbriantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:Sure, I just don’t get the parochialism about food.
Isn't caring about how and where your food is produced understandable? And that if the chains to get it onto your plate are shorter, it's less likely to have had horsemeat added?0 -
rick_chasey said:
Sure. But British meat isn’t all thatbriantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:Sure, I just don’t get the parochialism about food.
Isn't caring about how and where your food is produced understandable? And that if the chains to get it onto your plate are shorter, it's less likely to have had horsemeat added?
Good & bad meat is available in all countries.0 -
Depends what you mean. Animal welfare? Nutritional content? Taste? Packaging? Some supermarkets are happy to just bung it in a tray; M&S specify exactly how they want each steak or chop presented. See also the fuss about the mince packaging Sainsbury's tried.rick_chasey said:
Sure. But British meat isn’t all thatbriantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:Sure, I just don’t get the parochialism about food.
Isn't caring about how and where your food is produced understandable? And that if the chains to get it onto your plate are shorter, it's less likely to have had horsemeat added?
If you are comparing high end restaurant steak from around the world, I'm sure there's not much in it. Feedlot production just is lower welfare (and cheaper) than well looked after cattle in a field. The difference in meat quality is debatable but the more intensive production requires more pharmaceutical intervention to keep the livestock healthy enough to eat. That will have an effect on meat quality.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I guess things like foot and mouth or BSE have perfect excuses to introduce bans that subsequently got extended for purely protectionist reasons.TheBigBean said:
Isn't it like football fans? A lot of countries think England has the worst due to their actions in the 80s. That doesn't necessarily reflect current times.surrey_commuter said:
Thanks jimmyjams I am starting to realise that British farming belongs in a box with the NHS for revered things that must never be criticised that the rest of the world think is a bit censoredjimmyjams said:rjsterry said:I'm aware of the reputational damage as a relic of BSE and the associated commercially motivated hysteria. Which was getting on for 40 years ago.
BSE was not 40 years ago. Bans on the import of british lamb to the USA were introduced in the early 1980s (and I believe still exist), following major outbreaks of foot&mouth in the UK during the late 1960s and again in the early 1980s (and again in 2001).surrey_commuter said:Check out the widespread decades long bans over BSE and foot and mouth disease when we poisoned the food chain
The EU ban on british beef exports to the EU and the American ban on imports to the USA, because of BSE, were introduced in 1996. The EU restrictions were gradually relaxed over a decade or so, while I think it was only about 18 months ago the USA again accepted the import of british beef.
Because of BSE, China banned the import of british beef in 1998 and only lifted the ban in 2018, but following a few new BSE cases in the UK during 2018 and 2019, China didn't actually ever start importing british beef again, so wary were they.
A new case of BSE in Somerset during 2021, prompted the Chinese to re-introduce some partial restrictions on the import of british beef, so they probably still haven't started importing any british beef yet.0 -
Pross said:
I guess things like foot and mouth or BSE have perfect excuses to introduce bans that subsequently got extended for purely protectionist reasons.TheBigBean said:
Isn't it like football fans? A lot of countries think England has the worst due to their actions in the 80s. That doesn't necessarily reflect current times.surrey_commuter said:
Thanks jimmyjams I am starting to realise that British farming belongs in a box with the NHS for revered things that must never be criticised that the rest of the world think is a bit censoredjimmyjams said:rjsterry said:I'm aware of the reputational damage as a relic of BSE and the associated commercially motivated hysteria. Which was getting on for 40 years ago.
BSE was not 40 years ago. Bans on the import of british lamb to the USA were introduced in the early 1980s (and I believe still exist), following major outbreaks of foot&mouth in the UK during the late 1960s and again in the early 1980s (and again in 2001).surrey_commuter said:Check out the widespread decades long bans over BSE and foot and mouth disease when we poisoned the food chain
The EU ban on british beef exports to the EU and the American ban on imports to the USA, because of BSE, were introduced in 1996. The EU restrictions were gradually relaxed over a decade or so, while I think it was only about 18 months ago the USA again accepted the import of british beef.
Because of BSE, China banned the import of british beef in 1998 and only lifted the ban in 2018, but following a few new BSE cases in the UK during 2018 and 2019, China didn't actually ever start importing british beef again, so wary were they.
A new case of BSE in Somerset during 2021, prompted the Chinese to re-introduce some partial restrictions on the import of british beef, so they probably still haven't started importing any british beef yet.
France was found guilty by the EU for over-extending the ban.0 -
How was the UK compensated?briantrumpet said:Pross said:
I guess things like foot and mouth or BSE have perfect excuses to introduce bans that subsequently got extended for purely protectionist reasons.TheBigBean said:
Isn't it like football fans? A lot of countries think England has the worst due to their actions in the 80s. That doesn't necessarily reflect current times.surrey_commuter said:
Thanks jimmyjams I am starting to realise that British farming belongs in a box with the NHS for revered things that must never be criticised that the rest of the world think is a bit censoredjimmyjams said:rjsterry said:I'm aware of the reputational damage as a relic of BSE and the associated commercially motivated hysteria. Which was getting on for 40 years ago.
BSE was not 40 years ago. Bans on the import of british lamb to the USA were introduced in the early 1980s (and I believe still exist), following major outbreaks of foot&mouth in the UK during the late 1960s and again in the early 1980s (and again in 2001).surrey_commuter said:Check out the widespread decades long bans over BSE and foot and mouth disease when we poisoned the food chain
The EU ban on british beef exports to the EU and the American ban on imports to the USA, because of BSE, were introduced in 1996. The EU restrictions were gradually relaxed over a decade or so, while I think it was only about 18 months ago the USA again accepted the import of british beef.
Because of BSE, China banned the import of british beef in 1998 and only lifted the ban in 2018, but following a few new BSE cases in the UK during 2018 and 2019, China didn't actually ever start importing british beef again, so wary were they.
A new case of BSE in Somerset during 2021, prompted the Chinese to re-introduce some partial restrictions on the import of british beef, so they probably still haven't started importing any british beef yet.
France was found guilty by the EU for over-extending the ban.0 -
Got to keep more of its wonderful produce for itself?TheBigBean said:
How was the UK compensated?briantrumpet said:Pross said:
I guess things like foot and mouth or BSE have perfect excuses to introduce bans that subsequently got extended for purely protectionist reasons.TheBigBean said:
Isn't it like football fans? A lot of countries think England has the worst due to their actions in the 80s. That doesn't necessarily reflect current times.surrey_commuter said:
Thanks jimmyjams I am starting to realise that British farming belongs in a box with the NHS for revered things that must never be criticised that the rest of the world think is a bit censoredjimmyjams said:rjsterry said:I'm aware of the reputational damage as a relic of BSE and the associated commercially motivated hysteria. Which was getting on for 40 years ago.
BSE was not 40 years ago. Bans on the import of british lamb to the USA were introduced in the early 1980s (and I believe still exist), following major outbreaks of foot&mouth in the UK during the late 1960s and again in the early 1980s (and again in 2001).surrey_commuter said:Check out the widespread decades long bans over BSE and foot and mouth disease when we poisoned the food chain
The EU ban on british beef exports to the EU and the American ban on imports to the USA, because of BSE, were introduced in 1996. The EU restrictions were gradually relaxed over a decade or so, while I think it was only about 18 months ago the USA again accepted the import of british beef.
Because of BSE, China banned the import of british beef in 1998 and only lifted the ban in 2018, but following a few new BSE cases in the UK during 2018 and 2019, China didn't actually ever start importing british beef again, so wary were they.
A new case of BSE in Somerset during 2021, prompted the Chinese to re-introduce some partial restrictions on the import of british beef, so they probably still haven't started importing any british beef yet.
France was found guilty by the EU for over-extending the ban.
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TheBigBean said:
How was the UK compensated?briantrumpet said:Pross said:
I guess things like foot and mouth or BSE have perfect excuses to introduce bans that subsequently got extended for purely protectionist reasons.TheBigBean said:
Isn't it like football fans? A lot of countries think England has the worst due to their actions in the 80s. That doesn't necessarily reflect current times.surrey_commuter said:
Thanks jimmyjams I am starting to realise that British farming belongs in a box with the NHS for revered things that must never be criticised that the rest of the world think is a bit censoredjimmyjams said:rjsterry said:I'm aware of the reputational damage as a relic of BSE and the associated commercially motivated hysteria. Which was getting on for 40 years ago.
BSE was not 40 years ago. Bans on the import of british lamb to the USA were introduced in the early 1980s (and I believe still exist), following major outbreaks of foot&mouth in the UK during the late 1960s and again in the early 1980s (and again in 2001).surrey_commuter said:Check out the widespread decades long bans over BSE and foot and mouth disease when we poisoned the food chain
The EU ban on british beef exports to the EU and the American ban on imports to the USA, because of BSE, were introduced in 1996. The EU restrictions were gradually relaxed over a decade or so, while I think it was only about 18 months ago the USA again accepted the import of british beef.
Because of BSE, China banned the import of british beef in 1998 and only lifted the ban in 2018, but following a few new BSE cases in the UK during 2018 and 2019, China didn't actually ever start importing british beef again, so wary were they.
A new case of BSE in Somerset during 2021, prompted the Chinese to re-introduce some partial restrictions on the import of british beef, so they probably still haven't started importing any british beef yet.
France was found guilty by the EU for over-extending the ban.
Nothing more than occupying the moral high ground for a while.0 -
So what do you think is not all that about British meat?rjsterry said:
Depends what you mean. Animal welfare? Nutritional content? Taste? Packaging? Some supermarkets are happy to just bung it in a tray; M&S specify exactly how they want each steak or chop presented. See also the fuss about the mince packaging Sainsbury's tried.rick_chasey said:
Sure. But British meat isn’t all thatbriantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:Sure, I just don’t get the parochialism about food.
Isn't caring about how and where your food is produced understandable? And that if the chains to get it onto your plate are shorter, it's less likely to have had horsemeat added?
If you are comparing high end restaurant steak from around the world, I'm sure there's not much in it. Feedlot production just is lower welfare (and cheaper) than well looked after cattle in a field. The difference in meat quality is debatable but the more intensive production requires more pharmaceutical intervention to keep the livestock healthy enough to eat. That will have an effect on meat quality.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Mainly the quality for the price.
A good example is the steak I bought here in Italy in the supermarket. 2/3rds the price of “taste the difference” equivalent in sainos and 1/3rd of the price of my local butcher and better quality than both. Juicy, tender, full of flavour, no gristle.
The chicken in Italy and France is better quality too, albeit mildly more expensive. Less watery and a stronger chicken flavour.
The pork in the UK is often remarkably pale. Exception is gammon and bacon which is obviously great but try any pancetta in Italy or France and it’s just less watery than the British equivalent.
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My perception is that the quality meat in France is considerably more expensive than the equivalent from the good Devon butchers I go to.0
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Stop buying meat in supermarkets. Not all British meat is equal. Why do they serve Aberdeen Angus abroad?rick_chasey said:
Sure. But British meat isn’t all thatbriantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:Sure, I just don’t get the parochialism about food.
Isn't caring about how and where your food is produced understandable? And that if the chains to get it onto your plate are shorter, it's less likely to have had horsemeat added?The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
pblakeney said:
Stop buying meat in supermarkets. Not all British meat is equal. Why do they serve Aberdeen Angus abroad?rick_chasey said:
Sure. But British meat isn’t all thatbriantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:Sure, I just don’t get the parochialism about food.
Isn't caring about how and where your food is produced understandable? And that if the chains to get it onto your plate are shorter, it's less likely to have had horsemeat added?
This.
It's like buying The Sun then complaining that British journalism is shït.
Mind you, part of the blame can be laid at the feet of the British consumer who buys terrible stuff supermarkets offer. Back in the 80s, when there was still a fairly thriving high street collection of butchers and greengrocers, the stuff they sold in Sainsbury's at al was laughably bad *and* expensive. Somehow they hoodwinked enough consumers into deserting their local shops, slowly strangling them, so viable alternatives to supermarket meat, fruit and veg were few and far between, meaning they dictated the quality and price to both sellers and buyers, and the UK consumer swapped quality & price for convenience.
But, as I said, you can certainly buy shït pork in France too, and it has the French flag on.0 -
Gristle content is down to the cut and skill of the butcher. All cattle have the same gristle in the same places.rick_chasey said:Mainly the quality for the price.
A good example is the steak I bought here in Italy in the supermarket. 2/3rds the price of “taste the difference” equivalent in sainos and 1/3rd of the price of my local butcher and better quality than both. Juicy, tender, full of flavour, no gristle.
The chicken in Italy and France is better quality too, albeit mildly more expensive. Less watery and a stronger chicken flavour.
The pork in the UK is often remarkably pale. Exception is gammon and bacon which is obviously great but try any pancetta in Italy or France and it’s just less watery than the British equivalent.
FWIW, Sainsbury's meat standards were a little lower than you would expect for their market position (this may now be out of date)
Food being generally cheaper in Italy is not really a surprise.
Agree that a lot of pork is pale and uninteresting. I suspect largely due to trends for very lean cuts. Pork needs fat to taste good.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
But that’s the point I’m making. Of course you can get good stuff at butchers if you pay through the nose.pblakeney said:
Stop buying meat in supermarkets. Not all British meat is equal. Why do they serve Aberdeen Angus abroad?rick_chasey said:
Sure. But British meat isn’t all thatbriantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:Sure, I just don’t get the parochialism about food.
Isn't caring about how and where your food is produced understandable? And that if the chains to get it onto your plate are shorter, it's less likely to have had horsemeat added?
In plenty of other places you don’t have to get decent quality.0 -
rick_chasey said:
But that’s the point I’m making. Of course you can get good stuff at butchers if you pay through the nose.pblakeney said:
Stop buying meat in supermarkets. Not all British meat is equal. Why do they serve Aberdeen Angus abroad?rick_chasey said:
Sure. But British meat isn’t all thatbriantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:Sure, I just don’t get the parochialism about food.
Isn't caring about how and where your food is produced understandable? And that if the chains to get it onto your plate are shorter, it's less likely to have had horsemeat added?
In plenty of other places you don’t have to get decent quality.
And you don't have to pay through the nose at a decent UK butchers - as I say, my experience is that they are cheaper than decent French meat.0 -
Lol fair enough.
I’ve never seen a butchers in the UK which doesn’t have some *healthy* margins.
I’m sure the £25 chicken tastes great. 🤷🏻♂️0 -
I think you shop in some odd places. I’m not a massive meat eater but there are some excellent butchers around here (used to be an absolutely superb fishmonger in my home town too but I think they have gone now or are trade only). Never seen a £25 chicken.rick_chasey said:Lol fair enough.
I’ve never seen a butchers in the UK which doesn’t have some *healthy* margins.
I’m sure the £25 chicken tastes great. 🤷🏻♂️0 -
Seriously? Genuinely I’ve not seen a butchers that doesn’t start with doubling the supermarket price and moves from there.0
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I go out frequently to my parents in Sicily and my general impressions are:
- Food in general is cheaper in the UK. There are exceptions, but the majority of veg and meat costs more in Sicily
- Most supermarket meat is clearly much higher quality than UK supermarket stuff e.g. whole chickens that look like birds rather than the genetic mutants we have (slower growing breeds)
- There is far more use of deli counters / in store butchers / bakers in supermarkets and much less pre-packed stuff
- Not everything is the utopia people paint it out to be e.g. my (Italian) dad won't touch Italian steak because he reckons the butchers cut it way to thin to cook rare; it's hard to get high quality not from concentrate fruit juices, because people tend to squeeze their own; there are many Sicilian "delicacies" that are actually pretty grim (alongside many delights)
- There is extensive use of local markets, which tend to have very high quality stuff at reasonable prices as long as you don't mind buying in quantity
- Veg, whilst obviously being of high quality, tends to come in considerably wonkier shapes and sizes than we get in the UK
However, I don't think Brexit or UK farming methods are the overriding thing here - it's that the UK supermarkets drive produce a specific way; largely for cheapness & consistency over taste and regional variations.0 -
https://the-gourmet-butcher.wales/shop/rick_chasey said:Seriously? Genuinely I’ve not seen a butchers that doesn’t start with doubling the supermarket price and moves from there.
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super_davo said:
I go out frequently to my parents in Sicily and my general impressions are:
- Food in general is cheaper in the UK. There are exceptions, but the majority of veg and meat costs more in Sicily
- Most supermarket meat is clearly much higher quality than UK supermarket stuff e.g. whole chickens that look like birds rather than the genetic mutants we have (slower growing breeds)
- There is far more use of deli counters / in store butchers / bakers in supermarkets and much less pre-packed stuff
- Not everything is the utopia people paint it out to be e.g. my (Italian) dad won't touch Italian steak because he reckons the butchers cut it way to thin to cook rare; it's hard to get high quality not from concentrate fruit juices, because people tend to squeeze their own; there are many Sicilian "delicacies" that are actually pretty grim (alongside many delights)
- There is extensive use of local markets, which tend to have very high quality stuff at reasonable prices as long as you don't mind buying in quantity
- Veg, whilst obviously being of high quality, tends to come in considerably wonkier shapes and sizes than we get in the UK
However, I don't think Brexit or UK farming methods are the overriding thing here - it's that the UK supermarkets drive produce a specific way; largely for cheapness & consistency over taste and regional variations.
Yeah, that resonates with my experience of SE France. Can't really compare with the big UK supermarkets, as I never go in them these days, but Intermarché and Super U meat counters look more like proper butchers, and are expensive - chicken fillets were 13€/kg last week, sausages 12€/kg and the fancier beef cuts are in the 20-25€/kg range, IIRC.0 -
Pross said:
https://the-gourmet-butcher.wales/shop/rick_chasey said:Seriously? Genuinely I’ve not seen a butchers that doesn’t start with doubling the supermarket price and moves from there.
£8.90 for a barn-reared chicken at one of the two farm shop butchers I use:
https://www.greendale.com/category/poultry0 -
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My local butcher.rick_chasey said:Seriously? Genuinely I’ve not seen a butchers that doesn’t start with doubling the supermarket price and moves from there.
https://scottsofcarshalton.co.uk/#
We regularly buy their sausages. A bit more than supermarket equivalent but tastier and bigger and I think better value if you buy a large pack.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0
