BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
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Why are you looking at food? It is all tariffs that have been removed.surrey_commuter said:
I am struggling to find a value for food exports to Aus/;NZ as it does not appear in lists of top exports. Could it really be as low as £100m?TheBigBean said:
Sounds like a reasonable summary. Also, that NZ and Aus have dropped all their tariffs on imports from the UK.kingstongraham said:
I read that as saying that the "sell out" was done before the dinner, done on purpose and not on the hoof by Boris. The article seems to say that this is a good thing because it would reduce the UK's reliance on the EU for agricultural goods.TheBigBean said:Alternative view on Aus trade deal and the dinner with Johnson
https://capx.co/no-boris-didnt-sell-out-british-farmers-with-the-australia-trade-deal/
I'm not saying this was a good or bad thing, because I don't know. Do we get a lot of lamb and beef from the EU?0 -
surrey_commuter said:
I am struggling to find a value for food exports to Aus/;NZ as it does not appear in lists of top exports. Could it really be as low as £100m?TheBigBean said:
Sounds like a reasonable summary. Also, that NZ and Aus have dropped all their tariffs on imports from the UK.kingstongraham said:
I read that as saying that the "sell out" was done before the dinner, done on purpose and not on the hoof by Boris. The article seems to say that this is a good thing because it would reduce the UK's reliance on the EU for agricultural goods.TheBigBean said:Alternative view on Aus trade deal and the dinner with Johnson
https://capx.co/no-boris-didnt-sell-out-british-farmers-with-the-australia-trade-deal/
I'm not saying this was a good or bad thing, because I don't know. Do we get a lot of lamb and beef from the EU?
You wonder why they ere joking about black pudding...0 -
I thought the Boris sell out was specific to agricultureTheBigBean said:
Why are you looking at food? It is all tariffs that have been removed.surrey_commuter said:
I am struggling to find a value for food exports to Aus/;NZ as it does not appear in lists of top exports. Could it really be as low as £100m?TheBigBean said:
Sounds like a reasonable summary. Also, that NZ and Aus have dropped all their tariffs on imports from the UK.kingstongraham said:
I read that as saying that the "sell out" was done before the dinner, done on purpose and not on the hoof by Boris. The article seems to say that this is a good thing because it would reduce the UK's reliance on the EU for agricultural goods.TheBigBean said:Alternative view on Aus trade deal and the dinner with Johnson
https://capx.co/no-boris-didnt-sell-out-british-farmers-with-the-australia-trade-deal/
I'm not saying this was a good or bad thing, because I don't know. Do we get a lot of lamb and beef from the EU?0 -
That's on UK imports. Tariffs have gone on UK exports to Aus/NZ. You should be in favour.surrey_commuter said:
I thought the Boris sell out was specific to agricultureTheBigBean said:
Why are you looking at food? It is all tariffs that have been removed.surrey_commuter said:
I am struggling to find a value for food exports to Aus/;NZ as it does not appear in lists of top exports. Could it really be as low as £100m?TheBigBean said:
Sounds like a reasonable summary. Also, that NZ and Aus have dropped all their tariffs on imports from the UK.kingstongraham said:
I read that as saying that the "sell out" was done before the dinner, done on purpose and not on the hoof by Boris. The article seems to say that this is a good thing because it would reduce the UK's reliance on the EU for agricultural goods.TheBigBean said:Alternative view on Aus trade deal and the dinner with Johnson
https://capx.co/no-boris-didnt-sell-out-british-farmers-with-the-australia-trade-deal/
I'm not saying this was a good or bad thing, because I don't know. Do we get a lot of lamb and beef from the EU?0 -
I am in favour but would rather they were not onthe far side of the world as that would improve my chances of benefiting from good quality cheap beef.TheBigBean said:
That's on UK imports. Tariffs have gone on UK exports to Aus/NZ. You should be in favour.surrey_commuter said:
I thought the Boris sell out was specific to agricultureTheBigBean said:
Why are you looking at food? It is all tariffs that have been removed.surrey_commuter said:
I am struggling to find a value for food exports to Aus/;NZ as it does not appear in lists of top exports. Could it really be as low as £100m?TheBigBean said:
Sounds like a reasonable summary. Also, that NZ and Aus have dropped all their tariffs on imports from the UK.kingstongraham said:
I read that as saying that the "sell out" was done before the dinner, done on purpose and not on the hoof by Boris. The article seems to say that this is a good thing because it would reduce the UK's reliance on the EU for agricultural goods.TheBigBean said:Alternative view on Aus trade deal and the dinner with Johnson
https://capx.co/no-boris-didnt-sell-out-british-farmers-with-the-australia-trade-deal/
I'm not saying this was a good or bad thing, because I don't know. Do we get a lot of lamb and beef from the EU?
There really does not seem to be much point dedicating resources to getting a deal with a small country far, far, away.
I think we should spend our time on improving the EU deals that we rolled over0 -
Yeah true, I mean we might win the world cup in my lifetime.super_davo said:<
But yet to hear a convincing reason why this is a bad thing.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
It's probably not massive, but it was already pretty easy to export services to Aus and this will likely make it even easier*. Plus things than can easily be shipped (cars, machinery etc.) can be exported without tariffs.surrey_commuter said:
I am in favour but would rather they were not onthe far side of the world as that would improve my chances of benefiting from good quality cheap beef.TheBigBean said:
That's on UK imports. Tariffs have gone on UK exports to Aus/NZ. You should be in favour.surrey_commuter said:
I thought the Boris sell out was specific to agricultureTheBigBean said:
Why are you looking at food? It is all tariffs that have been removed.surrey_commuter said:
I am struggling to find a value for food exports to Aus/;NZ as it does not appear in lists of top exports. Could it really be as low as £100m?TheBigBean said:
Sounds like a reasonable summary. Also, that NZ and Aus have dropped all their tariffs on imports from the UK.kingstongraham said:
I read that as saying that the "sell out" was done before the dinner, done on purpose and not on the hoof by Boris. The article seems to say that this is a good thing because it would reduce the UK's reliance on the EU for agricultural goods.TheBigBean said:Alternative view on Aus trade deal and the dinner with Johnson
https://capx.co/no-boris-didnt-sell-out-british-farmers-with-the-australia-trade-deal/
I'm not saying this was a good or bad thing, because I don't know. Do we get a lot of lamb and beef from the EU?
There really does not seem to be much point dedicating resources to getting a deal with a small country far, far, away.
I think we should spend our time on improving the EU deals that we rolled over
*I'm aware the time zone is a pain, but quite a few people do it.0 -
An oxymoron if ever there was one.surrey_commuter said:
good quality cheap beef.TheBigBean said:
That's on UK imports. Tariffs have gone on UK exports to Aus/NZ. You should be in favour.surrey_commuter said:
I thought the Boris sell out was specific to agricultureTheBigBean said:
Why are you looking at food? It is all tariffs that have been removed.surrey_commuter said:
I am struggling to find a value for food exports to Aus/;NZ as it does not appear in lists of top exports. Could it really be as low as £100m?TheBigBean said:
Sounds like a reasonable summary. Also, that NZ and Aus have dropped all their tariffs on imports from the UK.kingstongraham said:
I read that as saying that the "sell out" was done before the dinner, done on purpose and not on the hoof by Boris. The article seems to say that this is a good thing because it would reduce the UK's reliance on the EU for agricultural goods.TheBigBean said:Alternative view on Aus trade deal and the dinner with Johnson
https://capx.co/no-boris-didnt-sell-out-british-farmers-with-the-australia-trade-deal/
I'm not saying this was a good or bad thing, because I don't know. Do we get a lot of lamb and beef from the EU?
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
rjsterry said:
An oxymoron if ever there was one.surrey_commuter said:
good quality cheap beef.TheBigBean said:
That's on UK imports. Tariffs have gone on UK exports to Aus/NZ. You should be in favour.surrey_commuter said:
I thought the Boris sell out was specific to agricultureTheBigBean said:
Why are you looking at food? It is all tariffs that have been removed.surrey_commuter said:
I am struggling to find a value for food exports to Aus/;NZ as it does not appear in lists of top exports. Could it really be as low as £100m?TheBigBean said:
Sounds like a reasonable summary. Also, that NZ and Aus have dropped all their tariffs on imports from the UK.kingstongraham said:
I read that as saying that the "sell out" was done before the dinner, done on purpose and not on the hoof by Boris. The article seems to say that this is a good thing because it would reduce the UK's reliance on the EU for agricultural goods.TheBigBean said:Alternative view on Aus trade deal and the dinner with Johnson
https://capx.co/no-boris-didnt-sell-out-british-farmers-with-the-australia-trade-deal/
I'm not saying this was a good or bad thing, because I don't know. Do we get a lot of lamb and beef from the EU?
This is how it's done cheaply, and with hormones and grain. They've got permission for a 65k-head unit.
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Superior UK version
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TheBigBean said:
Superior UK version
Not saying that all UK beef production is of delighted animals skipping through luxuriant pastures before being shot, but cheap meat comes at a price, whether it's here or in Australia.
https://www.rspca.org.uk/-/news-rspca-australia-warns-brits-about-low-standards-and-corrects-ministers-claimsBeef production
40% of beef produced in Australia involves the use of hormones, a practice that is currently not allowed in the UK.
4% of beef is produced on non-grazing feedlots, which limit space and the ability of animals to express their natural behaviours and is not allowed in the UK.
Australia also permits hot branding, a painful procedure not used in the UK.
The 80 slaughterhouses approved for export in Australia have been rated just 2 out of 4 for welfare by RSPCA Australia and there is no compulsory CCTV in slaughterhouses, which is mandatory in England
As the UK prepares to end live exports, the Government is preparing to do a deal with Australia which allows beef cattle to be transported for up to 48 hours without food or water in intense heat.
The pity is that the UK has been leading the way on animal welfare, and we're throwing that away.0 -
I don't understand this "4% of beef is produced on non-grazing feedlots, which limit space and the ability of animals to express their natural behaviours and is not allowed in the UK." in the context of the photo above of legally chained cows.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:Superior UK version
Not saying that all UK beef production is of delighted animals skipping through luxuriant pastures before being shot, but cheap meat comes at a price, whether it's here or in Australia.
https://www.rspca.org.uk/-/news-rspca-australia-warns-brits-about-low-standards-and-corrects-ministers-claimsBeef production
40% of beef produced in Australia involves the use of hormones, a practice that is currently not allowed in the UK.
4% of beef is produced on non-grazing feedlots, which limit space and the ability of animals to express their natural behaviours and is not allowed in the UK.
Australia also permits hot branding, a painful procedure not used in the UK.
The 80 slaughterhouses approved for export in Australia have been rated just 2 out of 4 for welfare by RSPCA Australia and there is no compulsory CCTV in slaughterhouses, which is mandatory in England
As the UK prepares to end live exports, the Government is preparing to do a deal with Australia which allows beef cattle to be transported for up to 48 hours without food or water in intense heat.
The pity is that the UK has been leading the way on animal welfare, and we're throwing that away.
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That's a dairy farm and the cows are being milked.0
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In Germany.0
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In 2009.0
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TheBigBean said:
I don't understand this "4% of beef is produced on non-grazing feedlots, which limit space and the ability of animals to express their natural behaviours and is not allowed in the UK." in the context of the photo above of legally chained cows.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:Superior UK version
Not saying that all UK beef production is of delighted animals skipping through luxuriant pastures before being shot, but cheap meat comes at a price, whether it's here or in Australia.
https://www.rspca.org.uk/-/news-rspca-australia-warns-brits-about-low-standards-and-corrects-ministers-claimsBeef production
40% of beef produced in Australia involves the use of hormones, a practice that is currently not allowed in the UK.
4% of beef is produced on non-grazing feedlots, which limit space and the ability of animals to express their natural behaviours and is not allowed in the UK.
Australia also permits hot branding, a painful procedure not used in the UK.
The 80 slaughterhouses approved for export in Australia have been rated just 2 out of 4 for welfare by RSPCA Australia and there is no compulsory CCTV in slaughterhouses, which is mandatory in England
As the UK prepares to end live exports, the Government is preparing to do a deal with Australia which allows beef cattle to be transported for up to 48 hours without food or water in intense heat.
The pity is that the UK has been leading the way on animal welfare, and we're throwing that away.
I'm not defending chained beef animals, but the overall picture, as far as the RSPCA is concerned, is the Oz animals do not have the protections of UK ones. As I say, the UK has led the way in may respects, and the RSPCA don't give a free ride to anyone.
I'd be interested to know the provenance of your photo, though it doesn't make Oz practices which are outlawed here any less concerning. I've personally never seen chained up beef animals here, though that's not proof it doesn't go on.0 -
I'm not sure what the law says is the minimum requirement for UK cattle, but amongst various wefare schemes (Red TRactor, RSPCA accreditation, etc.), here's the government guidance, on which such scheme are based or mirror.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/code-of-recommendations-for-the-welfare-of-livestock-cattle/beef-cattle-and-dairy-cows-welfare-recommendationsHousing should have enough space for all the animals to:
lie in comfort at the same time
interact with each other
stand up and move freely0 -
kingstongraham said:
That's a dairy farm and the cows are being milked.
kingstongraham said:In Germany.
Brian likes a photo. I doubt they are chained just for milking.kingstongraham said:In 2009.
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It's poor practice which I would have expected to be illegal, but I have seen it in the UK. I think the public would be surprised by a lot of farming.briantrumpet said:I'm not sure what the law says is the minimum requirement for UK cattle, but amongst various wefare schemes (Red TRactor, RSPCA accreditation, etc.), here's the government guidance, on which such scheme are based or mirror.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/code-of-recommendations-for-the-welfare-of-livestock-cattle/beef-cattle-and-dairy-cows-welfare-recommendationsHousing should have enough space for all the animals to:
lie in comfort at the same time
interact with each other
stand up and move freely
None of that means I support poor treatment for imported animals. I have said before that foie gras ban would be a Brexit upside. Perhaps Labour will deliver on it.0 -
The irony is of course that our farming practices are viewed badly outside of the UK0
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I expect they're all dead by now.TheBigBean said:kingstongraham said:That's a dairy farm and the cows are being milked.
kingstongraham said:In Germany.
Brian likes a photo. I doubt they are chained just for milking.kingstongraham said:In 2009.
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surrey_commuter said:
The irony is of course that our farming practices are viewed badly outside of the UK
In what ways, and evidence? Genuinely interested.
If it's on the economic efficiency front, in animal husbandry terms, that's not unrelated to welfare: it's not necessarily directly proportional, but welfare costs money (see the routine high use of antibiotics in animal husbandry in the US - it's a substitute for good husbandry and more expensive systems that involve more, and more expensive, labour).
This isn't a paean to small family farms - I've seen some shockers, where the ignorance of good practice and modern advances has been unpleasant - but efficiencies can come all too easily at a cost to the animals and land under a farmer's care.
Here, since BB gave us a photo, I'll give you one too. This is deemed inefficient, maybe, but having healthy contented livestock is not just about churning out milk at the lowest possible cost.
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kingstongraham said:
In 2009.
Thanks. I didn't think it looked like the UK in 2023, but I don't have comprehensive knowledge of every farm in the UK. I've seen a very small 'shippen' like that in one farm where I milked for a while, but it had not been in use for a long time, and they'd moved to more a more modern standard parlour & feed systems.0 -
It's old fashioned, but still goes on as it is not against the law. Often smaller shippens/byres now. I saw it this year. Apparently there are some advantages to it as they get more human interaction.briantrumpet said:kingstongraham said:In 2009.
Thanks. I didn't think it looked like the UK in 2023, but I don't have comprehensive knowledge of every farm in the UK. I've seen a very small 'shippen' like that in one farm where I milked for a while, but it had not been in use for a long time, and they'd moved to more a more modern standard parlour & feed systems.0 -
TheBigBean said:
It's old fashioned, but still goes on as it is not against the law. Often smaller shippens/byres now. I saw it this year. Apparently there are some advantages to it as they get more human interaction.briantrumpet said:kingstongraham said:In 2009.
Thanks. I didn't think it looked like the UK in 2023, but I don't have comprehensive knowledge of every farm in the UK. I've seen a very small 'shippen' like that in one farm where I milked for a while, but it had not been in use for a long time, and they'd moved to more a more modern standard parlour & feed systems.
OK, thanks. Just never seen it myself.0 -
One thing I don't like though is that "saw it this year" and "is legal" are not always synonymous. Although I guess that goes for the way people ride bikes too.0
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That goes for a lot of things unfortunately, some people will do almost anything to increase their profit and don't give a damn about anyone or anything else.TheBigBean said:One thing I don't like though is that "saw it this year" and "is legal" are not always synonymous. Although I guess that goes for the way people ride bikes too.
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Due to dodgy farming practices most foreigners I know are deeply suspicious of British meat.briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:The irony is of course that our farming practices are viewed badly outside of the UK
In what ways, and evidence? Genuinely interested.
If it's on the economic efficiency front, in animal husbandry terms, that's not unrelated to welfare: it's not necessarily directly proportional, but welfare costs money (see the routine high use of antibiotics in animal husbandry in the US - it's a substitute for good husbandry and more expensive systems that involve more, and more expensive, labour).
This isn't a paean to small family farms - I've seen some shockers, where the ignorance of good practice and modern advances has been unpleasant - but efficiencies can come all too easily at a cost to the animals and land under a farmer's care.
Here, since BB gave us a photo, I'll give you one too. This is deemed inefficient, maybe, but having healthy contented livestock is not just about churning out milk at the lowest possible cost.
If you google countries with bans on meat exports you will be surprised0 -
Not sure commercially motivated bans and hearsay count as evidence. The mistakes of the 70s and 80s are what have led to us having higher standards than most other countries.surrey_commuter said:
Due to dodgy farming practices most foreigners I know are deeply suspicious of British meat.briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:The irony is of course that our farming practices are viewed badly outside of the UK
In what ways, and evidence? Genuinely interested.
If it's on the economic efficiency front, in animal husbandry terms, that's not unrelated to welfare: it's not necessarily directly proportional, but welfare costs money (see the routine high use of antibiotics in animal husbandry in the US - it's a substitute for good husbandry and more expensive systems that involve more, and more expensive, labour).
This isn't a paean to small family farms - I've seen some shockers, where the ignorance of good practice and modern advances has been unpleasant - but efficiencies can come all too easily at a cost to the animals and land under a farmer's care.
Here, since BB gave us a photo, I'll give you one too. This is deemed inefficient, maybe, but having healthy contented livestock is not just about churning out milk at the lowest possible cost.
If you google countries with bans on meat exports you will be surprised
Brian is right. Good animal husbandry and production hygiene is expensive. The quality of husbandry also affects the hygiene of the meat produced, so it's not just a welfare issue. The reason intensively produced meat involves the use of antibiotics is that the closer living conditions mean higher rates of disease and infection. The only way to get cheap meat is to lower standards.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
As are the European Directives under which meat has been produced here for decadesrjsterry said:
Not sure commercially motivated bans and hearsay count as evidence. The mistakes of the 70s and 80s are what have led to us having higher standards than most other countries.surrey_commuter said:
Due to dodgy farming practices most foreigners I know are deeply suspicious of British meat.briantrumpet said:surrey_commuter said:The irony is of course that our farming practices are viewed badly outside of the UK
In what ways, and evidence? Genuinely interested.
If it's on the economic efficiency front, in animal husbandry terms, that's not unrelated to welfare: it's not necessarily directly proportional, but welfare costs money (see the routine high use of antibiotics in animal husbandry in the US - it's a substitute for good husbandry and more expensive systems that involve more, and more expensive, labour).
This isn't a paean to small family farms - I've seen some shockers, where the ignorance of good practice and modern advances has been unpleasant - but efficiencies can come all too easily at a cost to the animals and land under a farmer's care.
Here, since BB gave us a photo, I'll give you one too. This is deemed inefficient, maybe, but having healthy contented livestock is not just about churning out milk at the lowest possible cost.
If you google countries with bans on meat exports you will be surprised
.Wilier Izoard XP0
