BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

surrey_commuter

Jezyboy said:

TheBigBean said:

ddraver said:

It's got milk

Milk goes off

Gone off milk makes people sick

You want to check that products entering your country won't make people sick

None of this is controversial

@tailwindhome lives in the same country. The question is whether his Bailey's consumption will have any impact on the EU, and whether this impact is sufficiently material to risk the peace.

Furthermore, if sausage rolls and Baileys are such high risk items, then the protocol may well be voted out in four years.

What are the options if the protocol gets voted out.

I had thought the current rules were a fairly natural result of starting off at a flow chart where your inputs are no visible land border, the UK not being in a Customs Union and there not being magic technology to implement an invisible border.

It's conceivable that different sets of negotiating teams and policiticians may be moe flexible and have less bad blood between them I guess. But it's difficult to see anyone in the UK gaining political power through arguing to be "softer" towards EU negotiations.

And I suspect there are no votes in promising to preserve the Union

morstar

surrey_commuter said:

Jezyboy said:

TheBigBean said:

ddraver said:

It's got milk

Milk goes off

Gone off milk makes people sick

You want to check that products entering your country won't make people sick

None of this is controversial

@tailwindhome lives in the same country. The question is whether his Bailey's consumption will have any impact on the EU, and whether this impact is sufficiently material to risk the peace.

Furthermore, if sausage rolls and Baileys are such high risk items, then the protocol may well be voted out in four years.

What are the options if the protocol gets voted out.

I had thought the current rules were a fairly natural result of starting off at a flow chart where your inputs are no visible land border, the UK not being in a Customs Union and there not being magic technology to implement an invisible border.

It's conceivable that different sets of negotiating teams and policiticians may be moe flexible and have less bad blood between them I guess. But it's difficult to see anyone in the UK gaining political power through arguing to be "softer" towards EU negotiations.

And I suspect there are no votes in promising to preserve the Union

It’d be interesting to see survey stats from mainland brits on the NI issue.

Personally, I am sympathetic to those in NI who identify as British but view the whole situation as a throwback to our imperial past that probably should be corrected.
But that is just a layman’s opinion with no in depth knowledge of the history.

surrey_commuter

Jezyboy said:

TheBigBean said:

ddraver said:

It's got milk

Milk goes off

Gone off milk makes people sick

You want to check that products entering your country won't make people sick

None of this is controversial

@tailwindhome lives in the same country. The question is whether his Bailey's consumption will have any impact on the EU, and whether this impact is sufficiently material to risk the peace.

Furthermore, if sausage rolls and Baileys are such high risk items, then the protocol may well be voted out in four years.

What are the options if the protocol gets voted out.

I had thought the current rules were a fairly natural result of starting off at a flow chart where your inputs are no visible land border, the UK not being in a Customs Union and there not being magic technology to implement an invisible border.

It's conceivable that different sets of negotiating teams and policiticians may be moe flexible and have less bad blood between them I guess. But it's difficult to see anyone in the UK gaining political power through arguing to be "softer" towards EU negotiations.

If the UK position was not driven by ideology it would have been very easy to agree to maintain EU standards and to give 12 months notice of any deviation that we intend to make.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

ddraver said:

It's got milk

Milk goes off

Gone off milk makes people sick

You want to check that products entering your country won't make people sick

None of this is controversial

@tailwindhome lives in the same country. The question is whether his Bailey's consumption will have any impact on the EU, and whether this impact is sufficiently material to risk the peace.

Furthermore, if sausage rolls and Baileys are such high risk items, then the protocol may well be voted out in four years.

Or we could stop the stupidly objecting to sensible workable ideas - like signing up to the SPS rules - just because they have the letters EU attached to them.

morstar

surrey_commuter said:

Jezyboy said:

TheBigBean said:

ddraver said:

It's got milk

Milk goes off

Gone off milk makes people sick

You want to check that products entering your country won't make people sick

None of this is controversial

@tailwindhome lives in the same country. The question is whether his Bailey's consumption will have any impact on the EU, and whether this impact is sufficiently material to risk the peace.

Furthermore, if sausage rolls and Baileys are such high risk items, then the protocol may well be voted out in four years.

What are the options if the protocol gets voted out.

I had thought the current rules were a fairly natural result of starting off at a flow chart where your inputs are no visible land border, the UK not being in a Customs Union and there not being magic technology to implement an invisible border.

It's conceivable that different sets of negotiating teams and policiticians may be moe flexible and have less bad blood between them I guess. But it's difficult to see anyone in the UK gaining political power through arguing to be "softer" towards EU negotiations.

If the UK position was not driven by ideology it would have been very easy to agree to maintain EU standards and to give 12 months notice of any deviation that we intend to make.

Or seeing as technology was always the magic wand, why isn’t this still being pursued?

Just because the tech wasn’t ready for Brexit deadline doesn’t mean it can’t be part of an actual solution.

It’s almost as if they never had a plan and hoped some magic technology would get them out of their mess.

If they could make it work, I’m sure it would be a marketable product to speed at customs at lots of other borders.

rjsterry

morstar said:

surrey_commuter said:

Jezyboy said:

TheBigBean said:

ddraver said:

It's got milk

Milk goes off

Gone off milk makes people sick

You want to check that products entering your country won't make people sick

None of this is controversial

@tailwindhome lives in the same country. The question is whether his Bailey's consumption will have any impact on the EU, and whether this impact is sufficiently material to risk the peace.

Furthermore, if sausage rolls and Baileys are such high risk items, then the protocol may well be voted out in four years.

What are the options if the protocol gets voted out.

I had thought the current rules were a fairly natural result of starting off at a flow chart where your inputs are no visible land border, the UK not being in a Customs Union and there not being magic technology to implement an invisible border.

It's conceivable that different sets of negotiating teams and policiticians may be moe flexible and have less bad blood between them I guess. But it's difficult to see anyone in the UK gaining political power through arguing to be "softer" towards EU negotiations.

If the UK position was not driven by ideology it would have been very easy to agree to maintain EU standards and to give 12 months notice of any deviation that we intend to make.

Or seeing as technology was always the magic wand, why isn’t this still being pursued?

Just because the tech wasn’t ready for Brexit deadline doesn’t mean it can’t be part of an actual solution.

It’s almost as if they never had a plan and hoped some magic technology would get them out of their mess.

If they could make it work, I’m sure it would be a marketable product to speed at customs at lots of other borders.

The fact that it doesn't exist despite the hundreds of customs borders around the world, would suggest that it can't realistically be made to work.

ddraver

TheBigBean said:

ddraver said:

It's got milk

Milk goes off

Gone off milk makes people sick

You want to check that products entering your country won't make people sick

None of this is controversial

@tailwindhome lives in the same country.

But a different epidemiological unit.

See Foot & Mouth, 2001
GB Cases ~2000
Island of Ireland - 1

(you might have thought we'd have learned something about borders and pandemics from it but...hey ho 🙄)

TheBigBean

ddraver said:

TheBigBean said:

ddraver said:

It's got milk

Milk goes off

Gone off milk makes people sick

You want to check that products entering your country won't make people sick

None of this is controversial

@tailwindhome lives in the same country.

But a different epidemiological unit.

See Foot & Mouth, 2001
GB Cases ~2000
Island of Ireland - 1

(you might have thought we'd have learned something about borders and pandemics from it but...hey ho 🙄)

That would be an example of a material risk. What material risks do you see from Tailwindhome's clients consuming Baileys in the same country?

TheBigBean

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

ddraver said:

It's got milk

Milk goes off

Gone off milk makes people sick

You want to check that products entering your country won't make people sick

None of this is controversial

@tailwindhome lives in the same country. The question is whether his Bailey's consumption will have any impact on the EU, and whether this impact is sufficiently material to risk the peace.

Furthermore, if sausage rolls and Baileys are such high risk items, then the protocol may well be voted out in four years.

Where would you put the non-tariff barriers?

In the paperwork and labelling.

For trade between who?

UK and ROI ideally, but I'd imagine that compromises could be had under the existing protocol. For example, Baileys could be labelled as "not for consumption in EU" if shipped from GB to NI. If tailwindhome imported this and then sold it on into the EU, it should be a criminal matter - one that good paperwork would offer protection against.

If the UK bans foie gras I would expect it to be banned in NI as well. Someone could still easily transport it across the border, but they would need to find a buyer.

morstar

rjsterry said:

morstar said:

surrey_commuter said:

Jezyboy said:

TheBigBean said:

ddraver said:

It's got milk

Milk goes off

Gone off milk makes people sick

You want to check that products entering your country won't make people sick

None of this is controversial

@tailwindhome lives in the same country. The question is whether his Bailey's consumption will have any impact on the EU, and whether this impact is sufficiently material to risk the peace.

Furthermore, if sausage rolls and Baileys are such high risk items, then the protocol may well be voted out in four years.

What are the options if the protocol gets voted out.

I had thought the current rules were a fairly natural result of starting off at a flow chart where your inputs are no visible land border, the UK not being in a Customs Union and there not being magic technology to implement an invisible border.

It's conceivable that different sets of negotiating teams and policiticians may be moe flexible and have less bad blood between them I guess. But it's difficult to see anyone in the UK gaining political power through arguing to be "softer" towards EU negotiations.

If the UK position was not driven by ideology it would have been very easy to agree to maintain EU standards and to give 12 months notice of any deviation that we intend to make.

Or seeing as technology was always the magic wand, why isn’t this still being pursued?

Just because the tech wasn’t ready for Brexit deadline doesn’t mean it can’t be part of an actual solution.

It’s almost as if they never had a plan and hoped some magic technology would get them out of their mess.

If they could make it work, I’m sure it would be a marketable product to speed at customs at lots of other borders.

The fact that it doesn't exist despite the hundreds of customs borders around the world, would suggest that it can't realistically be made to work.

I agree. It irks me that they have just got away with turning their back on this snake oil they peddled for years.

pblakeney

morstar said:

It’s almost as if they never had a plan and hoped some magic technology would get them out of their mess.

I think we decided years ago that this was indeed their "plan". Putting their heads in the sand. It was deemed unworkable then and evidence shows that it is still unworkable.
#cakeandeatit
#dreamers

Jezyboy

surrey_commuter said:

Jezyboy said:

TheBigBean said:

ddraver said:

It's got milk

Milk goes off

Gone off milk makes people sick

You want to check that products entering your country won't make people sick

None of this is controversial

@tailwindhome lives in the same country. The question is whether his Bailey's consumption will have any impact on the EU, and whether this impact is sufficiently material to risk the peace.

Furthermore, if sausage rolls and Baileys are such high risk items, then the protocol may well be voted out in four years.

What are the options if the protocol gets voted out.

I had thought the current rules were a fairly natural result of starting off at a flow chart where your inputs are no visible land border, the UK not being in a Customs Union and there not being magic technology to implement an invisible border.

It's conceivable that different sets of negotiating teams and policiticians may be moe flexible and have less bad blood between them I guess. But it's difficult to see anyone in the UK gaining political power through arguing to be "softer" towards EU negotiations.

And I suspect there are no votes in promising to preserve the Union

I forsee votes for politicians who would rather lie in front of a bulldozer or be dead in a ditch, than threatened the union. But who don't have any specific ideas for its preservation.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

ddraver said:

TheBigBean said:

ddraver said:

It's got milk

Milk goes off

Gone off milk makes people sick

You want to check that products entering your country won't make people sick

None of this is controversial

@tailwindhome lives in the same country.

But a different epidemiological unit.

See Foot & Mouth, 2001
GB Cases ~2000
Island of Ireland - 1

(you might have thought we'd have learned something about borders and pandemics from it but...hey ho 🙄)

That would be an example of a material risk. What material risks do you see from Tailwindhome's clients consuming Baileys in the same country?

While Baileys itself might not present much of an SPS risk, the cream that goes into it does. History has plenty of examples of where lax biosecurity has had serious consequences, usually preceded by people claiming the risks are exaggerated.

ddraver

TheBigBean said:

ddraver said:

TheBigBean said:

ddraver said:

It's got milk

Milk goes off

Gone off milk makes people sick

You want to check that products entering your country won't make people sick

None of this is controversial

@tailwindhome lives in the same country.

But a different epidemiological unit.

See Foot & Mouth, 2001
GB Cases ~2000
Island of Ireland - 1

(you might have thought we'd have learned something about borders and pandemics from it but...hey ho 🙄)

That would be an example of a material risk. What material risks do you see from Tailwindhome's clients consuming Baileys in the same country?

I dunno - take it up with the WTO...

(remember them?..)

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

Stevo_666 said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

tailwindhome said:

Logistics manager doing his nut at work because he can't get a load of Baileys from a supplier in England onto a ferry

Needs a vet certificate before it can be moved

In all likelihood it originated in Belfast before being delivered to England.

A worthy EU rule.

What exactly does the vet have to certify in relation to bottles of Baileys?

Cream

Certify that it is what though?

Dunno tbh.

Anything of animal origin needs a veterinary health certificate. What that checks specifically I've no idea. I do believe it's not just an EU thing and is standard across borders in different SPS regulatory environments. The UK will insist on the same from the EU (when the systems are set up) as it does from other countries

It's a huge problem for the NI Protocol as a Tesco lorry may contain 100s of product lines each requiring a cert.

EDIT It's an 'Export Health Certificate that the product meets EU regulations

https://www.google.com/amp/s/spice-spotlight.scot/2020/11/30/after-the-transition-period-export-health-certificates/amp/

Just seemed odd as vets generally specialise in live animals, not dead animal produce. Like I said, classic EU rule.

Have you not been paying attention?

Anyway. http://apha.defra.gov.uk/official-vets/Guidance/exports/ehc-online.htm

It's not just for EU countries, but EU countries still require them. Think we need them from other countries too.

You'll have to explain that link, as it isn't obvious what point you're trying to make with it.

You said it was a classic EU rule. But an EHC is (and has been) needed for exports of animal products to non-EU countries.

Depends on the destination and product. We're not in the EU and the agreement doesn't cover it, so exporters need it.

Point is why a vet is needed to certify cream?

Stevo_666

morstar said:

kingstongraham said:

Some people need to accept that we've left and stop moaning about it.

That wins the internet for today.

I feel a whoosh moment coming on though.

Very true, although betrays a certain lack of self awareness on his part

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

tailwindhome said:

Logistics manager doing his nut at work because he can't get a load of Baileys from a supplier in England onto a ferry

Needs a vet certificate before it can be moved

In all likelihood it originated in Belfast before being delivered to England.

A worthy EU rule.

What exactly does the vet have to certify in relation to bottles of Baileys?

Cream

Certify that it is what though?

Dunno tbh.

Anything of animal origin needs a veterinary health certificate. What that checks specifically I've no idea. I do believe it's not just an EU thing and is standard across borders in different SPS regulatory environments. The UK will insist on the same from the EU (when the systems are set up) as it does from other countries

It's a huge problem for the NI Protocol as a Tesco lorry may contain 100s of product lines each requiring a cert.

EDIT It's an 'Export Health Certificate that the product meets EU regulations

https://www.google.com/amp/s/spice-spotlight.scot/2020/11/30/after-the-transition-period-export-health-certificates/amp/

Just seemed odd as vets generally specialise in live animals, not dead animal produce. Like I said, classic EU rule.

🙄 No, they're heavily involved in that, too. For pretty obvious reasons*. It's not exclusively an EU rule; it's fairly standard where animal products are shipped from one territory to another. NAFTA has an SPS regime, too. But for ideological opposition to anything EU, we'd ordinarily be getting on and negotiating an SPS agreement.

*In case they're not: SPS regimes are intended to contain any outbreaks of disease, so that they don't spread and wreak havoc with our entire food production system. Animal-based food products are an almost perfect way to spread a disease around geographically and across species. See BSE as an example. Vets have the necessary knowledge of microbiology and disease control and are already involved in the husbandry and slaughter of animals for consumption, so it's a small side step to certifying animal products for export.

I'm sure this is a key issue for bottles of Baileys.

Stevo_666

pinkbikini said:

Stevo_666 said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

tailwindhome said:

Stevo_666 said:

tailwindhome said:

Logistics manager doing his nut at work because he can't get a load of Baileys from a supplier in England onto a ferry

Needs a vet certificate before it can be moved

In all likelihood it originated in Belfast before being delivered to England.

A worthy EU rule.

What exactly does the vet have to certify in relation to bottles of Baileys?

Cream

Certify that it is what though?

Dunno tbh.

Anything of animal origin needs a veterinary health certificate. What that checks specifically I've no idea. I do believe it's not just an EU thing and is standard across borders in different SPS regulatory environments. The UK will insist on the same from the EU (when the systems are set up) as it does from other countries

It's a huge problem for the NI Protocol as a Tesco lorry may contain 100s of product lines each requiring a cert.

EDIT It's an 'Export Health Certificate that the product meets EU regulations

https://www.google.com/amp/s/spice-spotlight.scot/2020/11/30/after-the-transition-period-export-health-certificates/amp/

Just seemed odd as vets generally specialise in live animals, not dead animal produce. Like I said, classic EU rule.

Isn’t the issue that you (like me) have no idea why the rule is there? But you choose the blame the EU, rather than find out why the rule is there in the first place. Not very logical really.

You're assuming too much again.

TheBigBean

ddraver said:

TheBigBean said:

ddraver said:

TheBigBean said:

ddraver said:

It's got milk

Milk goes off

Gone off milk makes people sick

You want to check that products entering your country won't make people sick

None of this is controversial

@tailwindhome lives in the same country.

But a different epidemiological unit.

See Foot & Mouth, 2001
GB Cases ~2000
Island of Ireland - 1

(you might have thought we'd have learned something about borders and pandemics from it but...hey ho 🙄)

That would be an example of a material risk. What material risks do you see from Tailwindhome's clients consuming Baileys in the same country?

I dunno - take it up with the WTO...

(remember them?..)

I think you are missing the point. It isn't a normal border, the protocol is supposed to reduce the checks as much as possible.

Stevo_666

Well that was quite a reaction to a throw away comment about EU rules. Seems to be a certain amount of sensitivity on the issue?

I know KG likes to argue for the sake of it, but I didn't expect so many to join in

pangolin

I'd suggest that stevo rolls a dice to decide which tired old trope he's going to trot out so he can pretend he's won, but I'm not sure there are actually 6 options.

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

Well that was quite a reaction to a throw away comment about EU rules. Seems to be a certain amount of sensitivity on the issue?

I know KG likes to argue for the sake of it, but I didn't expect so many to join in

I'm not arguing. Just stating a fact.

kingstongraham

Stevo_666 said:

morstar said:

kingstongraham said:

Some people need to accept that we've left and stop moaning about it.

That wins the internet for today.

I feel a whoosh moment coming on though.

Very true, although betrays a certain lack of self awareness on his part

You think?

morstar

Stevo_666 said:

morstar said:

kingstongraham said:

Some people need to accept that we've left and stop moaning about it.

That wins the internet for today.

I feel a whoosh moment coming on though.

Very true, although betrays a certain lack of self awareness on his part

There it is. Whoosh.

Stevo_666

morstar said:

Stevo_666 said:

morstar said:

kingstongraham said:

Some people need to accept that we've left and stop moaning about it.

That wins the internet for today.

I feel a whoosh moment coming on though.

Very true, although betrays a certain lack of self awareness on his part

There it is. Whoosh.

I'm well aware of what he was trying to say No smartarse points for you today.

briantrumpet

Stevo riposte bingo... who's going to win?

Stevo_666

pangolin said:

I'd suggest that stevo rolls a dice to decide which tired old trope he's going to trot out so he can pretend he's won, but I'm not sure there are actually 6 options.

I expected you would chip in with a bit of peripheral trolling in a situation like this. And I was right...

kingstongraham

It would be a valid argument that someone messed up in not agreeing a common sps regime in the trade agreement so we wouldn't be treated the same as all non-EU countries. Or that someone messed up in not getting that in somehow in the ni protocol.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

It would be a valid argument that someone messed up in not agreeing a common sps regime in the trade agreement so we wouldn't be treated the same as all non-EU countries. Or that someone messed up in not getting that in somehow in the ni protocol.

I think you're reading too much into my original statement.

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

It would be a valid argument that someone messed up in not agreeing a common sps regime in the trade agreement so we wouldn't be treated the same as all non-EU countries. Or that someone messed up in not getting that in somehow in the ni protocol.

I think you're reading too much into my original statement.

He’s giving you a ladder.