BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴
Comments
-
Do we have to pay any import taxes on the winnings now though? Maybe only on the share that came from tickets bought in the EU. Oh the complications, I don't think I'll bother winning it now!focuszing723 said:What about the Euro Millions Lottery and also the distribution of the money which is made via it?
es, UK residents can still play EuroMillions after Brexit. You do not need to live in an EU country to buy tickets. For example, Switzerland is not an EU member and has played EuroMillions since October 2004.
The agreement in place to run the game is between the UK National Lottery and the official lottery operators of the eight other participating countries, so the UK will remain a part of the EuroMillions family regardless of the nation’s political status.
https://www.euro-millions.com/brexit
Well, there you go.0 -
Nah, me neither if I have to pay tax on a hundred million what's the bloody point!Pross said:
Do we have to pay any import taxes on the winnings now though? Maybe only on the share that came from tickets bought in the EU. Oh the complications, I don't think I'll bother winning it now!focuszing723 said:What about the Euro Millions Lottery and also the distribution of the money which is made via it?
es, UK residents can still play EuroMillions after Brexit. You do not need to live in an EU country to buy tickets. For example, Switzerland is not an EU member and has played EuroMillions since October 2004.
The agreement in place to run the game is between the UK National Lottery and the official lottery operators of the eight other participating countries, so the UK will remain a part of the EuroMillions family regardless of the nation’s political status.
https://www.euro-millions.com/brexit
Well, there you go.
That would be a nightmare mind, if you won and suddenly they went all Macron on you.0 -
It was almost bearable when it had the proper cheesy stuff and Terry Wogan to take the wee wee.rick_chasey said:Honestly a good eurovision party is low key highlight of the year
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
many a true word, etc. Sometimes you really do make it look like ruining people's lives is what motivates you in this whole thing.david37 said:
I HAVE RUINED YOUR LIVES BLAME ME
But in truth, I'll manage fine despite the complete shitshow, as will most well-established middle class people.
Bit of a shame for all those working-class brexiteers who'll be the ones to really suffer though.0 -
Ever since we left the EU last January this country's been in a terrible state.0
-
other than agriculture how is the EU bad for consumers? and even there we have kept the same barriersjohn80 said:
If you can make the case that being in the highly protectionist EU was optimum for consumers then crack on.surrey_commuter said:
So we agree that any alternative is sub optimum and bad for the consumer.john80 said:
Either the guy making the decisions in Shimano has a fancy woman in wherever this central EU hub is located or more likely when we were in the EU it was the most cost effective way of distributing their products to the entirety of the EU including the UK market. Either the additional Brexit paperwork will make direct UK import better or it won't as they have to balance off warehousing in the UK. The point is the trading relationship has changed and companies will have to make a decision in their best interests. I for one would be happy to take on the role of main UK distributor for shimano as I am sure would many others in the cycling industry for a small cut of the action. So in summary it might cost a bit more for a consumer but we might get another few jobs out of it.surrey_commuter said:
That was poorly written on my part.john80 said:
Others have claimed they don't hence the price increase claims. If they already directly import then nothing has changed. Tariffs are the same and paperwork from the far East is the same. I am not the one claiming that it is all ported to a EU country and then distributed from there. Ddraver is.surrey_commuter said:
Why do you think Shimano do not do that?john80 said:
I am not convinced by the arguments. If I was Shimano I would be importing direct to the UK from the far east as it would save me cash over the assumed current model that it all comes into a EU central hub and is distributed from there. The UK market is big enough to support this. I would not just increase prices in the hope that say SRAM don't do this. The generic argument still stands that businesses will look at market change and aim to raise prices as much as possible without harming sales unduly.surrey_commuter said:
Whilst not important it is something we know more about, collectively, than any other retail market. Why do you not think it will be the same for many other products?john80 said:
They might do. We will see. We are essentially arguing about something that is not very important in the grand scheme of things.elbowloh said:
There's a reason why they all have their groupsets aimed at similar brackets of riders and similar price points. If Shimanos price went up £400, I think the only thing that would happen with Campag and SRAM is a price increase also.john80 said:
If the groupset cost £1600 pre brexit and this then gets priced up to £2000 post brexit there is a £400 gap for a competitor to come into. If the competition all collude and accept the price is £2000 then you are right. If one breaks then they will increase their market share. The overall market will shrink at the £2000 but again this will be on a curve where sales and price will have an optimum profit which is a second factor. Your focus on how Britain is viewed around the world says more about you than me. Businesses don't generally care about the personal beliefs of the customer. They care that they want to buy something and have the money generally. Shimano will do what is best for their business bottom line.ddraver said:
Its hard not to use the word deluded to describe your impressions of how GB is viewed around the world right now...john80 said:
Shimano to take your case in point should pivot to either supplying complete items or assembling far east components in the UK to sell in the UK market. It is a opportunity in as much as it is a problem. The loss would be the EUs problem unless there is no competition indefinitely which will not be the case.yorkshireraw said:
name some none EU suppliers - and don't say Shimano as they assemble stuff in the EU.john80 said:
Non EU suppliers will do a roaring trade at the detriment to EU suppliers.yorkshireraw said:
Food is subject to a very different set of rules than man made metal objects.david37 said:yesterday i ordered some tooling from a German manufacturer.
The order process was visually the same as previously, delivery times are the same, cost was the same.
Invoice looks different with an additional note about the tax treatment and a note re reclaiming vat.
Brexit is not a complete nightmare (for me at least).
The tooling and machinery are manufactured in Germany, are delivered directly from Germany by a company that is trading with the UK and presumably many other independent countries around the world.
no doubt they had to put some work and thought into this.
It's going to be alright xxx
Also, my LBS is reporting they have been told of massive (30%) price increases for bikes and components out of Europe, due to COO complexities for different parts that are then assembled together in the EU.
I am glad this isn't an issue for your area, but that isn't to say there aren't severe consequences for many other businesses and consumers.
Why on earth would Shimano (or Campag or SRAM) do that?
If none of them do it, prices go up, the only people who lose out is us
To put this in perspective Yanmar manufacturing yacht engines have a UK distributor on much smaller albeit higher unit costs for what is a very small market. I can't buy an engine direct from Yanmar. I bought an engineer from a UK company as they import a Kubota base engine into the UK and marinise it for a significantly cheaper cost as I essentially cut out a layer of distribution that Yanmar don't allow due to their business model.
I am not doubting that Ddraver is correct.
My question is why do you think that Shimano do not directly import into the UK?
Overall people are missing that there are many opportunities for a reduction in price for some items. For example tech has been cheaper in the US for decades. This could change as there is no inherent reason that we should be paying more for a Chinese import phone than someone in the US. Its pretty much the same costs.
They charge more because they can, the likes of Apple seem to charge the same in £ as they do $. As Brexit is sinking the £ this could be seen as a benefit but good luck explaining it to people.0 -
that makes no sensedavid37 said:ahhhh here we are 2 whole weeks into our new non eu life and the naysayers are naysaying still.
I doubt youll ever be happy but surely even the most doom mongering lot of you must have expected a period of transition whilst everyone got used to things?
but if it makes you better, Im middle aged white male and voted for brexit and would do again tomorrow.
I HAVE RUINED YOUR LIVES BLAME ME0 -
Yeah, we didn't have any of those foreign viruses coming here before we were responsible for our own immigration policy. That's not the Brexit I voted for!kingstongraham said:Ever since we left the EU last January this country's been in a terrible state.
0 -
It protects industries in the EU when cheaper identical products could be bought elsewhere. For example, German solar panel manufacturing was protected due to Chinese "dumping". As a result the EU consumer paid, and continues to pay, more for electricity. There are no German manufacturers any more and panel prices are about half what was considered the dumping price. So essentially a money transfer from the consumer (although in the UK this was investors, so pension funds) to Chinese companies.surrey_commuter said:
other than agriculture how is the EU bad for consumers? and even there we have kept the same barriersjohn80 said:
If you can make the case that being in the highly protectionist EU was optimum for consumers then crack on.surrey_commuter said:
So we agree that any alternative is sub optimum and bad for the consumer.john80 said:
Either the guy making the decisions in Shimano has a fancy woman in wherever this central EU hub is located or more likely when we were in the EU it was the most cost effective way of distributing their products to the entirety of the EU including the UK market. Either the additional Brexit paperwork will make direct UK import better or it won't as they have to balance off warehousing in the UK. The point is the trading relationship has changed and companies will have to make a decision in their best interests. I for one would be happy to take on the role of main UK distributor for shimano as I am sure would many others in the cycling industry for a small cut of the action. So in summary it might cost a bit more for a consumer but we might get another few jobs out of it.surrey_commuter said:
That was poorly written on my part.john80 said:
Others have claimed they don't hence the price increase claims. If they already directly import then nothing has changed. Tariffs are the same and paperwork from the far East is the same. I am not the one claiming that it is all ported to a EU country and then distributed from there. Ddraver is.surrey_commuter said:
Why do you think Shimano do not do that?john80 said:
I am not convinced by the arguments. If I was Shimano I would be importing direct to the UK from the far east as it would save me cash over the assumed current model that it all comes into a EU central hub and is distributed from there. The UK market is big enough to support this. I would not just increase prices in the hope that say SRAM don't do this. The generic argument still stands that businesses will look at market change and aim to raise prices as much as possible without harming sales unduly.surrey_commuter said:
Whilst not important it is something we know more about, collectively, than any other retail market. Why do you not think it will be the same for many other products?john80 said:
They might do. We will see. We are essentially arguing about something that is not very important in the grand scheme of things.elbowloh said:
There's a reason why they all have their groupsets aimed at similar brackets of riders and similar price points. If Shimanos price went up £400, I think the only thing that would happen with Campag and SRAM is a price increase also.john80 said:
If the groupset cost £1600 pre brexit and this then gets priced up to £2000 post brexit there is a £400 gap for a competitor to come into. If the competition all collude and accept the price is £2000 then you are right. If one breaks then they will increase their market share. The overall market will shrink at the £2000 but again this will be on a curve where sales and price will have an optimum profit which is a second factor. Your focus on how Britain is viewed around the world says more about you than me. Businesses don't generally care about the personal beliefs of the customer. They care that they want to buy something and have the money generally. Shimano will do what is best for their business bottom line.ddraver said:
Its hard not to use the word deluded to describe your impressions of how GB is viewed around the world right now...john80 said:
Shimano to take your case in point should pivot to either supplying complete items or assembling far east components in the UK to sell in the UK market. It is a opportunity in as much as it is a problem. The loss would be the EUs problem unless there is no competition indefinitely which will not be the case.yorkshireraw said:
name some none EU suppliers - and don't say Shimano as they assemble stuff in the EU.john80 said:
Non EU suppliers will do a roaring trade at the detriment to EU suppliers.yorkshireraw said:
Food is subject to a very different set of rules than man made metal objects.david37 said:yesterday i ordered some tooling from a German manufacturer.
The order process was visually the same as previously, delivery times are the same, cost was the same.
Invoice looks different with an additional note about the tax treatment and a note re reclaiming vat.
Brexit is not a complete nightmare (for me at least).
The tooling and machinery are manufactured in Germany, are delivered directly from Germany by a company that is trading with the UK and presumably many other independent countries around the world.
no doubt they had to put some work and thought into this.
It's going to be alright xxx
Also, my LBS is reporting they have been told of massive (30%) price increases for bikes and components out of Europe, due to COO complexities for different parts that are then assembled together in the EU.
I am glad this isn't an issue for your area, but that isn't to say there aren't severe consequences for many other businesses and consumers.
Why on earth would Shimano (or Campag or SRAM) do that?
If none of them do it, prices go up, the only people who lose out is us
To put this in perspective Yanmar manufacturing yacht engines have a UK distributor on much smaller albeit higher unit costs for what is a very small market. I can't buy an engine direct from Yanmar. I bought an engineer from a UK company as they import a Kubota base engine into the UK and marinise it for a significantly cheaper cost as I essentially cut out a layer of distribution that Yanmar don't allow due to their business model.
I am not doubting that Ddraver is correct.
My question is why do you think that Shimano do not directly import into the UK?
Overall people are missing that there are many opportunities for a reduction in price for some items. For example tech has been cheaper in the US for decades. This could change as there is no inherent reason that we should be paying more for a Chinese import phone than someone in the US. Its pretty much the same costs.
They charge more because they can, the likes of Apple seem to charge the same in £ as they do $. As Brexit is sinking the £ this could be seen as a benefit but good luck explaining it to people.
It allows equivalence of regulations, so every country needs to accept worse regulations (unless they are the worst). A good example of this would be a Spanish travel agent selling into the UK, but not offering the legal requirement of ATOL protection. As a result, when they go bust, the consumer is worse off.
We've done all this before though.
0 -
I think he believes these things are just teething problems that will go away rather than being the sorts of problems previously dismissed as Project Fear being spread by Remoaners.surrey_commuter said:
that makes no sensedavid37 said:ahhhh here we are 2 whole weeks into our new non eu life and the naysayers are naysaying still.
I doubt youll ever be happy but surely even the most doom mongering lot of you must have expected a period of transition whilst everyone got used to things?
but if it makes you better, Im middle aged white male and voted for brexit and would do again tomorrow.
I HAVE RUINED YOUR LIVES BLAME ME0 -
It does, buy a new car and it takes some getting used to. Many things become apparent whilst actually using it rather than the information used to consider buying it.surrey_commuter said:
that makes no sensedavid37 said:ahhhh here we are 2 whole weeks into our new non eu life and the naysayers are naysaying still.
I doubt youll ever be happy but surely even the most doom mongering lot of you must have expected a period of transition whilst everyone got used to things?
but if it makes you better, Im middle aged white male and voted for brexit and would do again tomorrow.
I HAVE RUINED YOUR LIVES BLAME ME
Perhaps it turns out it's not reliable, the seats are too firm, it's not as economical as quoted...0 -
Which is no surprise given their complexity.0
-
0
-
so you think that overall consumers are worse off inside the SM?TheBigBean said:
It protects industries in the EU when cheaper identical products could be bought elsewhere. For example, German solar panel manufacturing was protected due to Chinese "dumping". As a result the EU consumer paid, and continues to pay, more for electricity. There are no German manufacturers any more and panel prices are about half what was considered the dumping price. So essentially a money transfer from the consumer (although in the UK this was investors, so pension funds) to Chinese companies.surrey_commuter said:
other than agriculture how is the EU bad for consumers? and even there we have kept the same barriersjohn80 said:
If you can make the case that being in the highly protectionist EU was optimum for consumers then crack on.surrey_commuter said:
So we agree that any alternative is sub optimum and bad for the consumer.john80 said:
Either the guy making the decisions in Shimano has a fancy woman in wherever this central EU hub is located or more likely when we were in the EU it was the most cost effective way of distributing their products to the entirety of the EU including the UK market. Either the additional Brexit paperwork will make direct UK import better or it won't as they have to balance off warehousing in the UK. The point is the trading relationship has changed and companies will have to make a decision in their best interests. I for one would be happy to take on the role of main UK distributor for shimano as I am sure would many others in the cycling industry for a small cut of the action. So in summary it might cost a bit more for a consumer but we might get another few jobs out of it.surrey_commuter said:
That was poorly written on my part.john80 said:
Others have claimed they don't hence the price increase claims. If they already directly import then nothing has changed. Tariffs are the same and paperwork from the far East is the same. I am not the one claiming that it is all ported to a EU country and then distributed from there. Ddraver is.surrey_commuter said:
Why do you think Shimano do not do that?john80 said:
I am not convinced by the arguments. If I was Shimano I would be importing direct to the UK from the far east as it would save me cash over the assumed current model that it all comes into a EU central hub and is distributed from there. The UK market is big enough to support this. I would not just increase prices in the hope that say SRAM don't do this. The generic argument still stands that businesses will look at market change and aim to raise prices as much as possible without harming sales unduly.surrey_commuter said:
Whilst not important it is something we know more about, collectively, than any other retail market. Why do you not think it will be the same for many other products?john80 said:
They might do. We will see. We are essentially arguing about something that is not very important in the grand scheme of things.elbowloh said:
There's a reason why they all have their groupsets aimed at similar brackets of riders and similar price points. If Shimanos price went up £400, I think the only thing that would happen with Campag and SRAM is a price increase also.john80 said:
If the groupset cost £1600 pre brexit and this then gets priced up to £2000 post brexit there is a £400 gap for a competitor to come into. If the competition all collude and accept the price is £2000 then you are right. If one breaks then they will increase their market share. The overall market will shrink at the £2000 but again this will be on a curve where sales and price will have an optimum profit which is a second factor. Your focus on how Britain is viewed around the world says more about you than me. Businesses don't generally care about the personal beliefs of the customer. They care that they want to buy something and have the money generally. Shimano will do what is best for their business bottom line.ddraver said:
Its hard not to use the word deluded to describe your impressions of how GB is viewed around the world right now...john80 said:
Shimano to take your case in point should pivot to either supplying complete items or assembling far east components in the UK to sell in the UK market. It is a opportunity in as much as it is a problem. The loss would be the EUs problem unless there is no competition indefinitely which will not be the case.yorkshireraw said:
name some none EU suppliers - and don't say Shimano as they assemble stuff in the EU.john80 said:
Non EU suppliers will do a roaring trade at the detriment to EU suppliers.yorkshireraw said:
Food is subject to a very different set of rules than man made metal objects.david37 said:yesterday i ordered some tooling from a German manufacturer.
The order process was visually the same as previously, delivery times are the same, cost was the same.
Invoice looks different with an additional note about the tax treatment and a note re reclaiming vat.
Brexit is not a complete nightmare (for me at least).
The tooling and machinery are manufactured in Germany, are delivered directly from Germany by a company that is trading with the UK and presumably many other independent countries around the world.
no doubt they had to put some work and thought into this.
It's going to be alright xxx
Also, my LBS is reporting they have been told of massive (30%) price increases for bikes and components out of Europe, due to COO complexities for different parts that are then assembled together in the EU.
I am glad this isn't an issue for your area, but that isn't to say there aren't severe consequences for many other businesses and consumers.
Why on earth would Shimano (or Campag or SRAM) do that?
If none of them do it, prices go up, the only people who lose out is us
To put this in perspective Yanmar manufacturing yacht engines have a UK distributor on much smaller albeit higher unit costs for what is a very small market. I can't buy an engine direct from Yanmar. I bought an engineer from a UK company as they import a Kubota base engine into the UK and marinise it for a significantly cheaper cost as I essentially cut out a layer of distribution that Yanmar don't allow due to their business model.
I am not doubting that Ddraver is correct.
My question is why do you think that Shimano do not directly import into the UK?
Overall people are missing that there are many opportunities for a reduction in price for some items. For example tech has been cheaper in the US for decades. This could change as there is no inherent reason that we should be paying more for a Chinese import phone than someone in the US. Its pretty much the same costs.
They charge more because they can, the likes of Apple seem to charge the same in £ as they do $. As Brexit is sinking the £ this could be seen as a benefit but good luck explaining it to people.
It allows equivalence of regulations, so every country needs to accept worse regulations (unless they are the worst). A good example of this would be a Spanish travel agent selling into the UK, but not offering the legal requirement of ATOL protection. As a result, when they go bust, the consumer is worse off.
We've done all this before though.0 -
They need to open an extra plant in the EU and assemble them there. Easy.yorkshireraw said:0 -
How is it the optimum as per your prior claim.surrey_commuter said:
other than agriculture how is the EU bad for consumers? and even there we have kept the same barriersjohn80 said:
If you can make the case that being in the highly protectionist EU was optimum for consumers then crack on.surrey_commuter said:
So we agree that any alternative is sub optimum and bad for the consumer.john80 said:
Either the guy making the decisions in Shimano has a fancy woman in wherever this central EU hub is located or more likely when we were in the EU it was the most cost effective way of distributing their products to the entirety of the EU including the UK market. Either the additional Brexit paperwork will make direct UK import better or it won't as they have to balance off warehousing in the UK. The point is the trading relationship has changed and companies will have to make a decision in their best interests. I for one would be happy to take on the role of main UK distributor for shimano as I am sure would many others in the cycling industry for a small cut of the action. So in summary it might cost a bit more for a consumer but we might get another few jobs out of it.surrey_commuter said:
That was poorly written on my part.john80 said:
Others have claimed they don't hence the price increase claims. If they already directly import then nothing has changed. Tariffs are the same and paperwork from the far East is the same. I am not the one claiming that it is all ported to a EU country and then distributed from there. Ddraver is.surrey_commuter said:
Why do you think Shimano do not do that?john80 said:
I am not convinced by the arguments. If I was Shimano I would be importing direct to the UK from the far east as it would save me cash over the assumed current model that it all comes into a EU central hub and is distributed from there. The UK market is big enough to support this. I would not just increase prices in the hope that say SRAM don't do this. The generic argument still stands that businesses will look at market change and aim to raise prices as much as possible without harming sales unduly.surrey_commuter said:
Whilst not important it is something we know more about, collectively, than any other retail market. Why do you not think it will be the same for many other products?john80 said:
They might do. We will see. We are essentially arguing about something that is not very important in the grand scheme of things.elbowloh said:
There's a reason why they all have their groupsets aimed at similar brackets of riders and similar price points. If Shimanos price went up £400, I think the only thing that would happen with Campag and SRAM is a price increase also.john80 said:
If the groupset cost £1600 pre brexit and this then gets priced up to £2000 post brexit there is a £400 gap for a competitor to come into. If the competition all collude and accept the price is £2000 then you are right. If one breaks then they will increase their market share. The overall market will shrink at the £2000 but again this will be on a curve where sales and price will have an optimum profit which is a second factor. Your focus on how Britain is viewed around the world says more about you than me. Businesses don't generally care about the personal beliefs of the customer. They care that they want to buy something and have the money generally. Shimano will do what is best for their business bottom line.ddraver said:
Its hard not to use the word deluded to describe your impressions of how GB is viewed around the world right now...john80 said:
Shimano to take your case in point should pivot to either supplying complete items or assembling far east components in the UK to sell in the UK market. It is a opportunity in as much as it is a problem. The loss would be the EUs problem unless there is no competition indefinitely which will not be the case.yorkshireraw said:
name some none EU suppliers - and don't say Shimano as they assemble stuff in the EU.john80 said:
Non EU suppliers will do a roaring trade at the detriment to EU suppliers.yorkshireraw said:
Food is subject to a very different set of rules than man made metal objects.david37 said:yesterday i ordered some tooling from a German manufacturer.
The order process was visually the same as previously, delivery times are the same, cost was the same.
Invoice looks different with an additional note about the tax treatment and a note re reclaiming vat.
Brexit is not a complete nightmare (for me at least).
The tooling and machinery are manufactured in Germany, are delivered directly from Germany by a company that is trading with the UK and presumably many other independent countries around the world.
no doubt they had to put some work and thought into this.
It's going to be alright xxx
Also, my LBS is reporting they have been told of massive (30%) price increases for bikes and components out of Europe, due to COO complexities for different parts that are then assembled together in the EU.
I am glad this isn't an issue for your area, but that isn't to say there aren't severe consequences for many other businesses and consumers.
Why on earth would Shimano (or Campag or SRAM) do that?
If none of them do it, prices go up, the only people who lose out is us
To put this in perspective Yanmar manufacturing yacht engines have a UK distributor on much smaller albeit higher unit costs for what is a very small market. I can't buy an engine direct from Yanmar. I bought an engineer from a UK company as they import a Kubota base engine into the UK and marinise it for a significantly cheaper cost as I essentially cut out a layer of distribution that Yanmar don't allow due to their business model.
I am not doubting that Ddraver is correct.
My question is why do you think that Shimano do not directly import into the UK?
Overall people are missing that there are many opportunities for a reduction in price for some items. For example tech has been cheaper in the US for decades. This could change as there is no inherent reason that we should be paying more for a Chinese import phone than someone in the US. Its pretty much the same costs.
They charge more because they can, the likes of Apple seem to charge the same in £ as they do $. As Brexit is sinking the £ this could be seen as a benefit but good luck explaining it to people.0 -
The EU has had some popular achievements in regulating multi-nationals which have benefited the consumer e.g. air travel, roaming charges, credit card fees. It would have been difficult for an indivudal country to achieve these and therfore in these cases the consumer is better off. That said, I'm not a fan of removing fees on credit cards as that has someties led to less choice for the consumer.surrey_commuter said:
so you think that overall consumers are worse off inside the SM?TheBigBean said:
It protects industries in the EU when cheaper identical products could be bought elsewhere. For example, German solar panel manufacturing was protected due to Chinese "dumping". As a result the EU consumer paid, and continues to pay, more for electricity. There are no German manufacturers any more and panel prices are about half what was considered the dumping price. So essentially a money transfer from the consumer (although in the UK this was investors, so pension funds) to Chinese companies.surrey_commuter said:
other than agriculture how is the EU bad for consumers? and even there we have kept the same barriersjohn80 said:
If you can make the case that being in the highly protectionist EU was optimum for consumers then crack on.surrey_commuter said:
So we agree that any alternative is sub optimum and bad for the consumer.john80 said:
Either the guy making the decisions in Shimano has a fancy woman in wherever this central EU hub is located or more likely when we were in the EU it was the most cost effective way of distributing their products to the entirety of the EU including the UK market. Either the additional Brexit paperwork will make direct UK import better or it won't as they have to balance off warehousing in the UK. The point is the trading relationship has changed and companies will have to make a decision in their best interests. I for one would be happy to take on the role of main UK distributor for shimano as I am sure would many others in the cycling industry for a small cut of the action. So in summary it might cost a bit more for a consumer but we might get another few jobs out of it.surrey_commuter said:
That was poorly written on my part.john80 said:
Others have claimed they don't hence the price increase claims. If they already directly import then nothing has changed. Tariffs are the same and paperwork from the far East is the same. I am not the one claiming that it is all ported to a EU country and then distributed from there. Ddraver is.surrey_commuter said:
Why do you think Shimano do not do that?john80 said:
I am not convinced by the arguments. If I was Shimano I would be importing direct to the UK from the far east as it would save me cash over the assumed current model that it all comes into a EU central hub and is distributed from there. The UK market is big enough to support this. I would not just increase prices in the hope that say SRAM don't do this. The generic argument still stands that businesses will look at market change and aim to raise prices as much as possible without harming sales unduly.surrey_commuter said:
Whilst not important it is something we know more about, collectively, than any other retail market. Why do you not think it will be the same for many other products?john80 said:
They might do. We will see. We are essentially arguing about something that is not very important in the grand scheme of things.elbowloh said:
There's a reason why they all have their groupsets aimed at similar brackets of riders and similar price points. If Shimanos price went up £400, I think the only thing that would happen with Campag and SRAM is a price increase also.john80 said:
If the groupset cost £1600 pre brexit and this then gets priced up to £2000 post brexit there is a £400 gap for a competitor to come into. If the competition all collude and accept the price is £2000 then you are right. If one breaks then they will increase their market share. The overall market will shrink at the £2000 but again this will be on a curve where sales and price will have an optimum profit which is a second factor. Your focus on how Britain is viewed around the world says more about you than me. Businesses don't generally care about the personal beliefs of the customer. They care that they want to buy something and have the money generally. Shimano will do what is best for their business bottom line.ddraver said:
Its hard not to use the word deluded to describe your impressions of how GB is viewed around the world right now...john80 said:
Shimano to take your case in point should pivot to either supplying complete items or assembling far east components in the UK to sell in the UK market. It is a opportunity in as much as it is a problem. The loss would be the EUs problem unless there is no competition indefinitely which will not be the case.yorkshireraw said:
name some none EU suppliers - and don't say Shimano as they assemble stuff in the EU.john80 said:
Non EU suppliers will do a roaring trade at the detriment to EU suppliers.yorkshireraw said:
Food is subject to a very different set of rules than man made metal objects.david37 said:yesterday i ordered some tooling from a German manufacturer.
The order process was visually the same as previously, delivery times are the same, cost was the same.
Invoice looks different with an additional note about the tax treatment and a note re reclaiming vat.
Brexit is not a complete nightmare (for me at least).
The tooling and machinery are manufactured in Germany, are delivered directly from Germany by a company that is trading with the UK and presumably many other independent countries around the world.
no doubt they had to put some work and thought into this.
It's going to be alright xxx
Also, my LBS is reporting they have been told of massive (30%) price increases for bikes and components out of Europe, due to COO complexities for different parts that are then assembled together in the EU.
I am glad this isn't an issue for your area, but that isn't to say there aren't severe consequences for many other businesses and consumers.
Why on earth would Shimano (or Campag or SRAM) do that?
If none of them do it, prices go up, the only people who lose out is us
To put this in perspective Yanmar manufacturing yacht engines have a UK distributor on much smaller albeit higher unit costs for what is a very small market. I can't buy an engine direct from Yanmar. I bought an engineer from a UK company as they import a Kubota base engine into the UK and marinise it for a significantly cheaper cost as I essentially cut out a layer of distribution that Yanmar don't allow due to their business model.
I am not doubting that Ddraver is correct.
My question is why do you think that Shimano do not directly import into the UK?
Overall people are missing that there are many opportunities for a reduction in price for some items. For example tech has been cheaper in the US for decades. This could change as there is no inherent reason that we should be paying more for a Chinese import phone than someone in the US. Its pretty much the same costs.
They charge more because they can, the likes of Apple seem to charge the same in £ as they do $. As Brexit is sinking the £ this could be seen as a benefit but good luck explaining it to people.
It allows equivalence of regulations, so every country needs to accept worse regulations (unless they are the worst). A good example of this would be a Spanish travel agent selling into the UK, but not offering the legal requirement of ATOL protection. As a result, when they go bust, the consumer is worse off.
We've done all this before though.
The EU's main achievement though is trying to harmonise regulations or declaring equivalence. This is mostly for the benefit of corporations though and the consumer benefit is through being able to buy the same standard of products (not services) from any country.
In some cases, harmonised regulations will improve things for consumers in some countries, but will, at the same time, make things worse for consumers in other countries.
So, to answer your question there is a balance between multinational improvments and identical standards for products, and the loss of some consumer protections for services. I'm not sure the answer is clear either way.
Tl;dr don't know0 -
I stated I understood the point, it was always going to be complex.surrey_commuter said:
so you think that overall consumers are worse off inside the SM?TheBigBean said:
It protects industries in the EU when cheaper identical products could be bought elsewhere. For example, German solar panel manufacturing was protected due to Chinese "dumping". As a result the EU consumer paid, and continues to pay, more for electricity. There are no German manufacturers any more and panel prices are about half what was considered the dumping price. So essentially a money transfer from the consumer (although in the UK this was investors, so pension funds) to Chinese companies.surrey_commuter said:
other than agriculture how is the EU bad for consumers? and even there we have kept the same barriersjohn80 said:
If you can make the case that being in the highly protectionist EU was optimum for consumers then crack on.surrey_commuter said:
So we agree that any alternative is sub optimum and bad for the consumer.john80 said:
Either the guy making the decisions in Shimano has a fancy woman in wherever this central EU hub is located or more likely when we were in the EU it was the most cost effective way of distributing their products to the entirety of the EU including the UK market. Either the additional Brexit paperwork will make direct UK import better or it won't as they have to balance off warehousing in the UK. The point is the trading relationship has changed and companies will have to make a decision in their best interests. I for one would be happy to take on the role of main UK distributor for shimano as I am sure would many others in the cycling industry for a small cut of the action. So in summary it might cost a bit more for a consumer but we might get another few jobs out of it.surrey_commuter said:
That was poorly written on my part.john80 said:
Others have claimed they don't hence the price increase claims. If they already directly import then nothing has changed. Tariffs are the same and paperwork from the far East is the same. I am not the one claiming that it is all ported to a EU country and then distributed from there. Ddraver is.surrey_commuter said:
Why do you think Shimano do not do that?john80 said:
I am not convinced by the arguments. If I was Shimano I would be importing direct to the UK from the far east as it would save me cash over the assumed current model that it all comes into a EU central hub and is distributed from there. The UK market is big enough to support this. I would not just increase prices in the hope that say SRAM don't do this. The generic argument still stands that businesses will look at market change and aim to raise prices as much as possible without harming sales unduly.surrey_commuter said:
Whilst not important it is something we know more about, collectively, than any other retail market. Why do you not think it will be the same for many other products?john80 said:
They might do. We will see. We are essentially arguing about something that is not very important in the grand scheme of things.elbowloh said:
There's a reason why they all have their groupsets aimed at similar brackets of riders and similar price points. If Shimanos price went up £400, I think the only thing that would happen with Campag and SRAM is a price increase also.john80 said:
If the groupset cost £1600 pre brexit and this then gets priced up to £2000 post brexit there is a £400 gap for a competitor to come into. If the competition all collude and accept the price is £2000 then you are right. If one breaks then they will increase their market share. The overall market will shrink at the £2000 but again this will be on a curve where sales and price will have an optimum profit which is a second factor. Your focus on how Britain is viewed around the world says more about you than me. Businesses don't generally care about the personal beliefs of the customer. They care that they want to buy something and have the money generally. Shimano will do what is best for their business bottom line.ddraver said:
Its hard not to use the word deluded to describe your impressions of how GB is viewed around the world right now...john80 said:
Shimano to take your case in point should pivot to either supplying complete items or assembling far east components in the UK to sell in the UK market. It is a opportunity in as much as it is a problem. The loss would be the EUs problem unless there is no competition indefinitely which will not be the case.yorkshireraw said:
name some none EU suppliers - and don't say Shimano as they assemble stuff in the EU.john80 said:
Non EU suppliers will do a roaring trade at the detriment to EU suppliers.yorkshireraw said:
Food is subject to a very different set of rules than man made metal objects.david37 said:yesterday i ordered some tooling from a German manufacturer.
The order process was visually the same as previously, delivery times are the same, cost was the same.
Invoice looks different with an additional note about the tax treatment and a note re reclaiming vat.
Brexit is not a complete nightmare (for me at least).
The tooling and machinery are manufactured in Germany, are delivered directly from Germany by a company that is trading with the UK and presumably many other independent countries around the world.
no doubt they had to put some work and thought into this.
It's going to be alright xxx
Also, my LBS is reporting they have been told of massive (30%) price increases for bikes and components out of Europe, due to COO complexities for different parts that are then assembled together in the EU.
I am glad this isn't an issue for your area, but that isn't to say there aren't severe consequences for many other businesses and consumers.
Why on earth would Shimano (or Campag or SRAM) do that?
If none of them do it, prices go up, the only people who lose out is us
To put this in perspective Yanmar manufacturing yacht engines have a UK distributor on much smaller albeit higher unit costs for what is a very small market. I can't buy an engine direct from Yanmar. I bought an engineer from a UK company as they import a Kubota base engine into the UK and marinise it for a significantly cheaper cost as I essentially cut out a layer of distribution that Yanmar don't allow due to their business model.
I am not doubting that Ddraver is correct.
My question is why do you think that Shimano do not directly import into the UK?
Overall people are missing that there are many opportunities for a reduction in price for some items. For example tech has been cheaper in the US for decades. This could change as there is no inherent reason that we should be paying more for a Chinese import phone than someone in the US. Its pretty much the same costs.
They charge more because they can, the likes of Apple seem to charge the same in £ as they do $. As Brexit is sinking the £ this could be seen as a benefit but good luck explaining it to people.
It allows equivalence of regulations, so every country needs to accept worse regulations (unless they are the worst). A good example of this would be a Spanish travel agent selling into the UK, but not offering the legal requirement of ATOL protection. As a result, when they go bust, the consumer is worse off.
We've done all this before though.
The evidence seems to be showing currently we are worse off though (in terms of consumers). No doubt spending hundred of billions on Covid will impact this too. Not the best timing to be leaving the EU at least short term.0 -
The EU has had some popular achievements in regulating multi-nationals which have benefited the consumer e.g. air travel, roaming charges, credit card fees. It would have been difficult for an indivudal country to achieve these and therfore in these cases the consumer is better off. That said, I'm not a fan of removing fees on credit cards as that has someties led to less choice for the consumer.TheBigBean said:
so you think that overall consumers are worse off inside the SM?surrey_commuter said:
It protects industries in the EU when cheaper identical products could be bought elsewhere. For example, German solar panel manufacturing was protected due to Chinese "dumping". As a result the EU consumer paid, and continues to pay, more for electricity. There are no German manufacturers any more and panel prices are about half what was considered the dumping price. So essentially a money transfer from the consumer (although in the UK this was investors, so pension funds) to Chinese companies.TheBigBean said:
other than agriculture how is the EU bad for consumers? and even there we have kept the same barrierssurrey_commuter said:
If you can make the case that being in the highly protectionist EU was optimum for consumers then crack on.john80 said:
So we agree that any alternative is sub optimum and bad for the consumer.surrey_commuter said:
Either the guy making the decisions in Shimano has a fancy woman in wherever this central EU hub is located or more likely when we were in the EU it was the most cost effective way of distributing their products to the entirety of the EU including the UK market. Either the additional Brexit paperwork will make direct UK import better or it won't as they have to balance off warehousing in the UK. The point is the trading relationship has changed and companies will have to make a decision in their best interests. I for one would be happy to take on the role of main UK distributor for shimano as I am sure would many others in the cycling industry for a small cut of the action. So in summary it might cost a bit more for a consumer but we might get another few jobs out of it.john80 said:
That was poorly written on my part.surrey_commuter said:
Others have claimed they don't hence the price increase claims. If they already directly import then nothing has changed. Tariffs are the same and paperwork from the far East is the same. I am not the one claiming that it is all ported to a EU country and then distributed from there. Ddraver is.john80 said:
Why do you think Shimano do not do that?surrey_commuter said:
I am not convinced by the arguments. If I was Shimano I would be importing direct to the UK from the far east as it would save me cash over the assumed current model that it all comes into a EU central hub and is distributed from there. The UK market is big enough to support this. I would not just increase prices in the hope that say SRAM don't do this. The generic argument still stands that businesses will look at market change and aim to raise prices as much as possible without harming sales unduly.john80 said:
Whilst not important it is something we know more about, collectively, than any other retail market. Why do you not think it will be the same for many other products?surrey_commuter said:
They might do. We will see. We are essentially arguing about something that is not very important in the grand scheme of things.john80 said:
There's a reason why they all have their groupsets aimed at similar brackets of riders and similar price points. If Shimanos price went up £400, I think the only thing that would happen with Campag and SRAM is a price increase also.elbowloh said:
If the groupset cost £1600 pre brexit and this then gets priced up to £2000 post brexit there is a £400 gap for a competitor to come into. If the competition all collude and accept the price is £2000 then you are right. If one breaks then they will increase their market share. The overall market will shrink at the £2000 but again this will be on a curve where sales and price will have an optimum profit which is a second factor. Your focus on how Britain is viewed around the world says more about you than me. Businesses don't generally care about the personal beliefs of the customer. They care that they want to buy something and have the money generally. Shimano will do what is best for their business bottom line.john80 said:
Its hard not to use the word deluded to describe your impressions of how GB is viewed around the world right now...john80 said:
Shimano to take your case in point should pivot to either supplying complete items or assembling far east components in the UK to sell in the UK market. It is a opportunity in as much as it is a problem. The loss would be the EUs problem unless there is no competition indefinitely which will not be the case.yorkshireraw said:
name some none EU suppliers - and don't say Shimano as they assemble stuff in the EU.john80 said:
Non EU suppliers will do a roaring trade at the detriment to EU suppliers.yorkshireraw said:
Food is subject to a very different set of rules than man made metal objects.david37 said:yesterday i ordered some tooling from a German manufacturer.
The order process was visually the same as previously, delivery times are the same, cost was the same.
Invoice looks different with an additional note about the tax treatment and a note re reclaiming vat.
Brexit is not a complete nightmare (for me at least).
The tooling and machinery are manufactured in Germany, are delivered directly from Germany by a company that is trading with the UK and presumably many other independent countries around the world.
no doubt they had to put some work and thought into this.
It's going to be alright xxx
Also, my LBS is reporting they have been told of massive (30%) price increases for bikes and components out of Europe, due to COO complexities for different parts that are then assembled together in the EU.
I am glad this isn't an issue for your area, but that isn't to say there aren't severe consequences for many other businesses and consumers.
Why on earth would Shimano (or Campag or SRAM) do that?
If none of them do it, prices go up, the only people who lose out is us
To put this in perspective Yanmar manufacturing yacht engines have a UK distributor on much smaller albeit higher unit costs for what is a very small market. I can't buy an engine direct from Yanmar. I bought an engineer from a UK company as they import a Kubota base engine into the UK and marinise it for a significantly cheaper cost as I essentially cut out a layer of distribution that Yanmar don't allow due to their business model.
I am not doubting that Ddraver is correct.
My question is why do you think that Shimano do not directly import into the UK?
Overall people are missing that there are many opportunities for a reduction in price for some items. For example tech has been cheaper in the US for decades. This could change as there is no inherent reason that we should be paying more for a Chinese import phone than someone in the US. Its pretty much the same costs.
They charge more because they can, the likes of Apple seem to charge the same in £ as they do $. As Brexit is sinking the £ this could be seen as a benefit but good luck explaining it to people.
It allows equivalence of regulations, so every country needs to accept worse regulations (unless they are the worst). A good example of this would be a Spanish travel agent selling into the UK, but not offering the legal requirement of ATOL protection. As a result, when they go bust, the consumer is worse off.
We've done all this before though.
The EU's main achievement though is trying to harmonise regulations or declaring equivalence. This is mostly for the benefit of corporations though and the consumer benefit is through being able to buy the same standard of products (not services) from any country.
In some cases, harmonised regulations will improve things for consumers in some countries, but will, at the same time, make things worse for consumers in other countries.
So, to answer your question there is a balance between multinational improvments and identical standards for products, and the loss of some consumer protections for services. I'm not sure the answer is clear either way.
Tl;dr don't know
What about the ability to buy and sell across borders?0 -
What about the ability to buy and sell across borders?surrey_commuter said:
The EU has had some popular achievements in regulating multi-nationals which have benefited the consumer e.g. air travel, roaming charges, credit card fees. It would have been difficult for an indivudal country to achieve these and therfore in these cases the consumer is better off. That said, I'm not a fan of removing fees on credit cards as that has someties led to less choice for the consumer.TheBigBean said:
so you think that overall consumers are worse off inside the SM?surrey_commuter said:
It protects industries in the EU when cheaper identical products could be bought elsewhere. For example, German solar panel manufacturing was protected due to Chinese "dumping". As a result the EU consumer paid, and continues to pay, more for electricity. There are no German manufacturers any more and panel prices are about half what was considered the dumping price. So essentially a money transfer from the consumer (although in the UK this was investors, so pension funds) to Chinese companies.TheBigBean said:
other than agriculture how is the EU bad for consumers? and even there we have kept the same barrierssurrey_commuter said:
If you can make the case that being in the highly protectionist EU was optimum for consumers then crack on.john80 said:
So we agree that any alternative is sub optimum and bad for the consumer.surrey_commuter said:
Either the guy making the decisions in Shimano has a fancy woman in wherever this central EU hub is located or more likely when we were in the EU it was the most cost effective way of distributing their products to the entirety of the EU including the UK market. Either the additional Brexit paperwork will make direct UK import better or it won't as they have to balance off warehousing in the UK. The point is the trading relationship has changed and companies will have to make a decision in their best interests. I for one would be happy to take on the role of main UK distributor for shimano as I am sure would many others in the cycling industry for a small cut of the action. So in summary it might cost a bit more for a consumer but we might get another few jobs out of it.john80 said:
That was poorly written on my part.surrey_commuter said:
Others have claimed they don't hence the price increase claims. If they already directly import then nothing has changed. Tariffs are the same and paperwork from the far East is the same. I am not the one claiming that it is all ported to a EU country and then distributed from there. Ddraver is.john80 said:
Why do you think Shimano do not do that?surrey_commuter said:
I am not convinced by the arguments. If I was Shimano I would be importing direct to the UK from the far east as it would save me cash over the assumed current model that it all comes into a EU central hub and is distributed from there. The UK market is big enough to support this. I would not just increase prices in the hope that say SRAM don't do this. The generic argument still stands that businesses will look at market change and aim to raise prices as much as possible without harming sales unduly.john80 said:
Whilst not important it is something we know more about, collectively, than any other retail market. Why do you not think it will be the same for many other products?surrey_commuter said:
They might do. We will see. We are essentially arguing about something that is not very important in the grand scheme of things.john80 said:
There's a reason why they all have their groupsets aimed at similar brackets of riders and similar price points. If Shimanos price went up £400, I think the only thing that would happen with Campag and SRAM is a price increase also.elbowloh said:
If the groupset cost £1600 pre brexit and this then gets priced up to £2000 post brexit there is a £400 gap for a competitor to come into. If the competition all collude and accept the price is £2000 then you are right. If one breaks then they will increase their market share. The overall market will shrink at the £2000 but again this will be on a curve where sales and price will have an optimum profit which is a second factor. Your focus on how Britain is viewed around the world says more about you than me. Businesses don't generally care about the personal beliefs of the customer. They care that they want to buy something and have the money generally. Shimano will do what is best for their business bottom line.john80 said:
Its hard not to use the word deluded to describe your impressions of how GB is viewed around the world right now...john80 said:
Shimano to take your case in point should pivot to either supplying complete items or assembling far east components in the UK to sell in the UK market. It is a opportunity in as much as it is a problem. The loss would be the EUs problem unless there is no competition indefinitely which will not be the case.yorkshireraw said:
name some none EU suppliers - and don't say Shimano as they assemble stuff in the EU.john80 said:
Non EU suppliers will do a roaring trade at the detriment to EU suppliers.yorkshireraw said:
Food is subject to a very different set of rules than man made metal objects.david37 said:yesterday i ordered some tooling from a German manufacturer.
The order process was visually the same as previously, delivery times are the same, cost was the same.
Invoice looks different with an additional note about the tax treatment and a note re reclaiming vat.
Brexit is not a complete nightmare (for me at least).
The tooling and machinery are manufactured in Germany, are delivered directly from Germany by a company that is trading with the UK and presumably many other independent countries around the world.
no doubt they had to put some work and thought into this.
It's going to be alright xxx
Also, my LBS is reporting they have been told of massive (30%) price increases for bikes and components out of Europe, due to COO complexities for different parts that are then assembled together in the EU.
I am glad this isn't an issue for your area, but that isn't to say there aren't severe consequences for many other businesses and consumers.
Why on earth would Shimano (or Campag or SRAM) do that?
If none of them do it, prices go up, the only people who lose out is us
To put this in perspective Yanmar manufacturing yacht engines have a UK distributor on much smaller albeit higher unit costs for what is a very small market. I can't buy an engine direct from Yanmar. I bought an engineer from a UK company as they import a Kubota base engine into the UK and marinise it for a significantly cheaper cost as I essentially cut out a layer of distribution that Yanmar don't allow due to their business model.
I am not doubting that Ddraver is correct.
My question is why do you think that Shimano do not directly import into the UK?
Overall people are missing that there are many opportunities for a reduction in price for some items. For example tech has been cheaper in the US for decades. This could change as there is no inherent reason that we should be paying more for a Chinese import phone than someone in the US. Its pretty much the same costs.
They charge more because they can, the likes of Apple seem to charge the same in £ as they do $. As Brexit is sinking the £ this could be seen as a benefit but good luck explaining it to people.
It allows equivalence of regulations, so every country needs to accept worse regulations (unless they are the worst). A good example of this would be a Spanish travel agent selling into the UK, but not offering the legal requirement of ATOL protection. As a result, when they go bust, the consumer is worse off.
We've done all this before though.
The EU's main achievement though is trying to harmonise regulations or declaring equivalence. This is mostly for the benefit of corporations though and the consumer benefit is through being able to buy the same standard of products (not services) from any country.
In some cases, harmonised regulations will improve things for consumers in some countries, but will, at the same time, make things worse for consumers in other countries.
So, to answer your question there is a balance between multinational improvments and identical standards for products, and the loss of some consumer protections for services. I'm not sure the answer is clear either way.
Tl;dr don't know
Yes, that is my point about identical standards. If you could only buy in the UK, standards would be the same (UK) ones, but within the EU you could buy from anywhere and also have the same standards (EU ones). This is an advantage for the consumer except to the extent that the EU standards are worse in some way. In which case, the consumer is worse off.0 -
john80 said:
How is it the optimum as per your prior claim.surrey_commuter said:
other than agriculture how is the EU bad for consumers? and even there we have kept the same barriersjohn80 said:
If you can make the case that being in the highly protectionist EU was optimum for consumers then crack on.surrey_commuter said:
So we agree that any alternative is sub optimum and bad for the consumer.john80 said:
Either the guy making the decisions in Shimano has a fancy woman in wherever this central EU hub is located or more likely when we were in the EU it was the most cost effective way of distributing their products to the entirety of the EU including the UK market. Either the additional Brexit paperwork will make direct UK import better or it won't as they have to balance off warehousing in the UK. The point is the trading relationship has changed and companies will have to make a decision in their best interests. I for one would be happy to take on the role of main UK distributor for shimano as I am sure would many others in the cycling industry for a small cut of the action. So in summary it might cost a bit more for a consumer but we might get another few jobs out of it.surrey_commuter said:
That was poorly written on my part.john80 said:
Others have claimed they don't hence the price increase claims. If they already directly import then nothing has changed. Tariffs are the same and paperwork from the far East is the same. I am not the one claiming that it is all ported to a EU country and then distributed from there. Ddraver is.surrey_commuter said:
Why do you think Shimano do not do that?john80 said:
I am not convinced by the arguments. If I was Shimano I would be importing direct to the UK from the far east as it would save me cash over the assumed current model that it all comes into a EU central hub and is distributed from there. The UK market is big enough to support this. I would not just increase prices in the hope that say SRAM don't do this. The generic argument still stands that businesses will look at market change and aim to raise prices as much as possible without harming sales unduly.surrey_commuter said:
Whilst not important it is something we know more about, collectively, than any other retail market. Why do you not think it will be the same for many other products?john80 said:
They might do. We will see. We are essentially arguing about something that is not very important in the grand scheme of things.elbowloh said:
There's a reason why they all have their groupsets aimed at similar brackets of riders and similar price points. If Shimanos price went up £400, I think the only thing that would happen with Campag and SRAM is a price increase also.john80 said:
If the groupset cost £1600 pre brexit and this then gets priced up to £2000 post brexit there is a £400 gap for a competitor to come into. If the competition all collude and accept the price is £2000 then you are right. If one breaks then they will increase their market share. The overall market will shrink at the £2000 but again this will be on a curve where sales and price will have an optimum profit which is a second factor. Your focus on how Britain is viewed around the world says more about you than me. Businesses don't generally care about the personal beliefs of the customer. They care that they want to buy something and have the money generally. Shimano will do what is best for their business bottom line.ddraver said:
Its hard not to use the word deluded to describe your impressions of how GB is viewed around the world right now...john80 said:
Shimano to take your case in point should pivot to either supplying complete items or assembling far east components in the UK to sell in the UK market. It is a opportunity in as much as it is a problem. The loss would be the EUs problem unless there is no competition indefinitely which will not be the case.yorkshireraw said:
name some none EU suppliers - and don't say Shimano as they assemble stuff in the EU.john80 said:
Non EU suppliers will do a roaring trade at the detriment to EU suppliers.yorkshireraw said:
Food is subject to a very different set of rules than man made metal objects.david37 said:yesterday i ordered some tooling from a German manufacturer.
The order process was visually the same as previously, delivery times are the same, cost was the same.
Invoice looks different with an additional note about the tax treatment and a note re reclaiming vat.
Brexit is not a complete nightmare (for me at least).
The tooling and machinery are manufactured in Germany, are delivered directly from Germany by a company that is trading with the UK and presumably many other independent countries around the world.
no doubt they had to put some work and thought into this.
It's going to be alright xxx
Also, my LBS is reporting they have been told of massive (30%) price increases for bikes and components out of Europe, due to COO complexities for different parts that are then assembled together in the EU.
I am glad this isn't an issue for your area, but that isn't to say there aren't severe consequences for many other businesses and consumers.
Why on earth would Shimano (or Campag or SRAM) do that?
If none of them do it, prices go up, the only people who lose out is us
To put this in perspective Yanmar manufacturing yacht engines have a UK distributor on much smaller albeit higher unit costs for what is a very small market. I can't buy an engine direct from Yanmar. I bought an engineer from a UK company as they import a Kubota base engine into the UK and marinise it for a significantly cheaper cost as I essentially cut out a layer of distribution that Yanmar don't allow due to their business model.
I am not doubting that Ddraver is correct.
My question is why do you think that Shimano do not directly import into the UK?
Overall people are missing that there are many opportunities for a reduction in price for some items. For example tech has been cheaper in the US for decades. This could change as there is no inherent reason that we should be paying more for a Chinese import phone than someone in the US. Its pretty much the same costs.
They charge more because they can, the likes of Apple seem to charge the same in £ as they do $. As Brexit is sinking the £ this could be seen as a benefit but good luck explaining it to people.
Do you really not understand the concept that prior to 2016 organisations chose the optimum way to conduct their business and that now they are having to change and that has to be worse or they would already be doing it.john80 said:
How is it the optimum as per your prior claim.surrey_commuter said:
other than agriculture how is the EU bad for consumers? and even there we have kept the same barriersjohn80 said:
If you can make the case that being in the highly protectionist EU was optimum for consumers then crack on.surrey_commuter said:
So we agree that any alternative is sub optimum and bad for the consumer.john80 said:
Either the guy making the decisions in Shimano has a fancy woman in wherever this central EU hub is located or more likely when we were in the EU it was the most cost effective way of distributing their products to the entirety of the EU including the UK market. Either the additional Brexit paperwork will make direct UK import better or it won't as they have to balance off warehousing in the UK. The point is the trading relationship has changed and companies will have to make a decision in their best interests. I for one would be happy to take on the role of main UK distributor for shimano as I am sure would many others in the cycling industry for a small cut of the action. So in summary it might cost a bit more for a consumer but we might get another few jobs out of it.surrey_commuter said:
That was poorly written on my part.john80 said:
Others have claimed they don't hence the price increase claims. If they already directly import then nothing has changed. Tariffs are the same and paperwork from the far East is the same. I am not the one claiming that it is all ported to a EU country and then distributed from there. Ddraver is.surrey_commuter said:
Why do you think Shimano do not do that?john80 said:
I am not convinced by the arguments. If I was Shimano I would be importing direct to the UK from the far east as it would save me cash over the assumed current model that it all comes into a EU central hub and is distributed from there. The UK market is big enough to support this. I would not just increase prices in the hope that say SRAM don't do this. The generic argument still stands that businesses will look at market change and aim to raise prices as much as possible without harming sales unduly.surrey_commuter said:
Whilst not important it is something we know more about, collectively, than any other retail market. Why do you not think it will be the same for many other products?john80 said:
They might do. We will see. We are essentially arguing about something that is not very important in the grand scheme of things.elbowloh said:
There's a reason why they all have their groupsets aimed at similar brackets of riders and similar price points. If Shimanos price went up £400, I think the only thing that would happen with Campag and SRAM is a price increase also.john80 said:
If the groupset cost £1600 pre brexit and this then gets priced up to £2000 post brexit there is a £400 gap for a competitor to come into. If the competition all collude and accept the price is £2000 then you are right. If one breaks then they will increase their market share. The overall market will shrink at the £2000 but again this will be on a curve where sales and price will have an optimum profit which is a second factor. Your focus on how Britain is viewed around the world says more about you than me. Businesses don't generally care about the personal beliefs of the customer. They care that they want to buy something and have the money generally. Shimano will do what is best for their business bottom line.ddraver said:
Its hard not to use the word deluded to describe your impressions of how GB is viewed around the world right now...john80 said:
Shimano to take your case in point should pivot to either supplying complete items or assembling far east components in the UK to sell in the UK market. It is a opportunity in as much as it is a problem. The loss would be the EUs problem unless there is no competition indefinitely which will not be the case.yorkshireraw said:
name some none EU suppliers - and don't say Shimano as they assemble stuff in the EU.john80 said:
Non EU suppliers will do a roaring trade at the detriment to EU suppliers.yorkshireraw said:
Food is subject to a very different set of rules than man made metal objects.david37 said:yesterday i ordered some tooling from a German manufacturer.
The order process was visually the same as previously, delivery times are the same, cost was the same.
Invoice looks different with an additional note about the tax treatment and a note re reclaiming vat.
Brexit is not a complete nightmare (for me at least).
The tooling and machinery are manufactured in Germany, are delivered directly from Germany by a company that is trading with the UK and presumably many other independent countries around the world.
no doubt they had to put some work and thought into this.
It's going to be alright xxx
Also, my LBS is reporting they have been told of massive (30%) price increases for bikes and components out of Europe, due to COO complexities for different parts that are then assembled together in the EU.
I am glad this isn't an issue for your area, but that isn't to say there aren't severe consequences for many other businesses and consumers.
Why on earth would Shimano (or Campag or SRAM) do that?
If none of them do it, prices go up, the only people who lose out is us
To put this in perspective Yanmar manufacturing yacht engines have a UK distributor on much smaller albeit higher unit costs for what is a very small market. I can't buy an engine direct from Yanmar. I bought an engineer from a UK company as they import a Kubota base engine into the UK and marinise it for a significantly cheaper cost as I essentially cut out a layer of distribution that Yanmar don't allow due to their business model.
I am not doubting that Ddraver is correct.
My question is why do you think that Shimano do not directly import into the UK?
Overall people are missing that there are many opportunities for a reduction in price for some items. For example tech has been cheaper in the US for decades. This could change as there is no inherent reason that we should be paying more for a Chinese import phone than someone in the US. Its pretty much the same costs.
They charge more because they can, the likes of Apple seem to charge the same in £ as they do $. As Brexit is sinking the £ this could be seen as a benefit but good luck explaining it to people.
And yes some idiots will not have optimised but the general principle is sound and that is why you will have less choice and pay more for many goods and services.0 -
Fisherman/women are making 72 hour round trips to land their fish Denmark to ensure they have access to markets and a good price. UK wholesalers missing out I guess also.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-556691680 -
Do you really not understand that some of those optimum arrangements might not have been in the UKs interests. In terms of less choice in the long term this is unlikely.surrey_commuter said:john80 said:
How is it the optimum as per your prior claim.surrey_commuter said:
other than agriculture how is the EU bad for consumers? and even there we have kept the same barriersjohn80 said:
If you can make the case that being in the highly protectionist EU was optimum for consumers then crack on.surrey_commuter said:
So we agree that any alternative is sub optimum and bad for the consumer.john80 said:
Either the guy making the decisions in Shimano has a fancy woman in wherever this central EU hub is located or more likely when we were in the EU it was the most cost effective way of distributing their products to the entirety of the EU including the UK market. Either the additional Brexit paperwork will make direct UK import better or it won't as they have to balance off warehousing in the UK. The point is the trading relationship has changed and companies will have to make a decision in their best interests. I for one would be happy to take on the role of main UK distributor for shimano as I am sure would many others in the cycling industry for a small cut of the action. So in summary it might cost a bit more for a consumer but we might get another few jobs out of it.surrey_commuter said:
That was poorly written on my part.john80 said:
Others have claimed they don't hence the price increase claims. If they already directly import then nothing has changed. Tariffs are the same and paperwork from the far East is the same. I am not the one claiming that it is all ported to a EU country and then distributed from there. Ddraver is.surrey_commuter said:
Why do you think Shimano do not do that?john80 said:
I am not convinced by the arguments. If I was Shimano I would be importing direct to the UK from the far east as it would save me cash over the assumed current model that it all comes into a EU central hub and is distributed from there. The UK market is big enough to support this. I would not just increase prices in the hope that say SRAM don't do this. The generic argument still stands that businesses will look at market change and aim to raise prices as much as possible without harming sales unduly.surrey_commuter said:
Whilst not important it is something we know more about, collectively, than any other retail market. Why do you not think it will be the same for many other products?john80 said:
They might do. We will see. We are essentially arguing about something that is not very important in the grand scheme of things.elbowloh said:
There's a reason why they all have their groupsets aimed at similar brackets of riders and similar price points. If Shimanos price went up £400, I think the only thing that would happen with Campag and SRAM is a price increase also.john80 said:
If the groupset cost £1600 pre brexit and this then gets priced up to £2000 post brexit there is a £400 gap for a competitor to come into. If the competition all collude and accept the price is £2000 then you are right. If one breaks then they will increase their market share. The overall market will shrink at the £2000 but again this will be on a curve where sales and price will have an optimum profit which is a second factor. Your focus on how Britain is viewed around the world says more about you than me. Businesses don't generally care about the personal beliefs of the customer. They care that they want to buy something and have the money generally. Shimano will do what is best for their business bottom line.ddraver said:
Its hard not to use the word deluded to describe your impressions of how GB is viewed around the world right now...john80 said:
Shimano to take your case in point should pivot to either supplying complete items or assembling far east components in the UK to sell in the UK market. It is a opportunity in as much as it is a problem. The loss would be the EUs problem unless there is no competition indefinitely which will not be the case.yorkshireraw said:
name some none EU suppliers - and don't say Shimano as they assemble stuff in the EU.john80 said:
Non EU suppliers will do a roaring trade at the detriment to EU suppliers.yorkshireraw said:
Food is subject to a very different set of rules than man made metal objects.david37 said:yesterday i ordered some tooling from a German manufacturer.
The order process was visually the same as previously, delivery times are the same, cost was the same.
Invoice looks different with an additional note about the tax treatment and a note re reclaiming vat.
Brexit is not a complete nightmare (for me at least).
The tooling and machinery are manufactured in Germany, are delivered directly from Germany by a company that is trading with the UK and presumably many other independent countries around the world.
no doubt they had to put some work and thought into this.
It's going to be alright xxx
Also, my LBS is reporting they have been told of massive (30%) price increases for bikes and components out of Europe, due to COO complexities for different parts that are then assembled together in the EU.
I am glad this isn't an issue for your area, but that isn't to say there aren't severe consequences for many other businesses and consumers.
Why on earth would Shimano (or Campag or SRAM) do that?
If none of them do it, prices go up, the only people who lose out is us
To put this in perspective Yanmar manufacturing yacht engines have a UK distributor on much smaller albeit higher unit costs for what is a very small market. I can't buy an engine direct from Yanmar. I bought an engineer from a UK company as they import a Kubota base engine into the UK and marinise it for a significantly cheaper cost as I essentially cut out a layer of distribution that Yanmar don't allow due to their business model.
I am not doubting that Ddraver is correct.
My question is why do you think that Shimano do not directly import into the UK?
Overall people are missing that there are many opportunities for a reduction in price for some items. For example tech has been cheaper in the US for decades. This could change as there is no inherent reason that we should be paying more for a Chinese import phone than someone in the US. Its pretty much the same costs.
They charge more because they can, the likes of Apple seem to charge the same in £ as they do $. As Brexit is sinking the £ this could be seen as a benefit but good luck explaining it to people.
Do you really not understand the concept that prior to 2016 organisations chose the optimum way to conduct their business and that now they are having to change and that has to be worse or they would already be doing it.john80 said:
How is it the optimum as per your prior claim.surrey_commuter said:
other than agriculture how is the EU bad for consumers? and even there we have kept the same barriersjohn80 said:
If you can make the case that being in the highly protectionist EU was optimum for consumers then crack on.surrey_commuter said:
So we agree that any alternative is sub optimum and bad for the consumer.john80 said:
Either the guy making the decisions in Shimano has a fancy woman in wherever this central EU hub is located or more likely when we were in the EU it was the most cost effective way of distributing their products to the entirety of the EU including the UK market. Either the additional Brexit paperwork will make direct UK import better or it won't as they have to balance off warehousing in the UK. The point is the trading relationship has changed and companies will have to make a decision in their best interests. I for one would be happy to take on the role of main UK distributor for shimano as I am sure would many others in the cycling industry for a small cut of the action. So in summary it might cost a bit more for a consumer but we might get another few jobs out of it.surrey_commuter said:
That was poorly written on my part.john80 said:
Others have claimed they don't hence the price increase claims. If they already directly import then nothing has changed. Tariffs are the same and paperwork from the far East is the same. I am not the one claiming that it is all ported to a EU country and then distributed from there. Ddraver is.surrey_commuter said:
Why do you think Shimano do not do that?john80 said:
I am not convinced by the arguments. If I was Shimano I would be importing direct to the UK from the far east as it would save me cash over the assumed current model that it all comes into a EU central hub and is distributed from there. The UK market is big enough to support this. I would not just increase prices in the hope that say SRAM don't do this. The generic argument still stands that businesses will look at market change and aim to raise prices as much as possible without harming sales unduly.surrey_commuter said:
Whilst not important it is something we know more about, collectively, than any other retail market. Why do you not think it will be the same for many other products?john80 said:
They might do. We will see. We are essentially arguing about something that is not very important in the grand scheme of things.elbowloh said:
There's a reason why they all have their groupsets aimed at similar brackets of riders and similar price points. If Shimanos price went up £400, I think the only thing that would happen with Campag and SRAM is a price increase also.john80 said:
If the groupset cost £1600 pre brexit and this then gets priced up to £2000 post brexit there is a £400 gap for a competitor to come into. If the competition all collude and accept the price is £2000 then you are right. If one breaks then they will increase their market share. The overall market will shrink at the £2000 but again this will be on a curve where sales and price will have an optimum profit which is a second factor. Your focus on how Britain is viewed around the world says more about you than me. Businesses don't generally care about the personal beliefs of the customer. They care that they want to buy something and have the money generally. Shimano will do what is best for their business bottom line.ddraver said:
Its hard not to use the word deluded to describe your impressions of how GB is viewed around the world right now...john80 said:
Shimano to take your case in point should pivot to either supplying complete items or assembling far east components in the UK to sell in the UK market. It is a opportunity in as much as it is a problem. The loss would be the EUs problem unless there is no competition indefinitely which will not be the case.yorkshireraw said:
name some none EU suppliers - and don't say Shimano as they assemble stuff in the EU.john80 said:
Non EU suppliers will do a roaring trade at the detriment to EU suppliers.yorkshireraw said:
Food is subject to a very different set of rules than man made metal objects.david37 said:yesterday i ordered some tooling from a German manufacturer.
The order process was visually the same as previously, delivery times are the same, cost was the same.
Invoice looks different with an additional note about the tax treatment and a note re reclaiming vat.
Brexit is not a complete nightmare (for me at least).
The tooling and machinery are manufactured in Germany, are delivered directly from Germany by a company that is trading with the UK and presumably many other independent countries around the world.
no doubt they had to put some work and thought into this.
It's going to be alright xxx
Also, my LBS is reporting they have been told of massive (30%) price increases for bikes and components out of Europe, due to COO complexities for different parts that are then assembled together in the EU.
I am glad this isn't an issue for your area, but that isn't to say there aren't severe consequences for many other businesses and consumers.
Why on earth would Shimano (or Campag or SRAM) do that?
If none of them do it, prices go up, the only people who lose out is us
To put this in perspective Yanmar manufacturing yacht engines have a UK distributor on much smaller albeit higher unit costs for what is a very small market. I can't buy an engine direct from Yanmar. I bought an engineer from a UK company as they import a Kubota base engine into the UK and marinise it for a significantly cheaper cost as I essentially cut out a layer of distribution that Yanmar don't allow due to their business model.
I am not doubting that Ddraver is correct.
My question is why do you think that Shimano do not directly import into the UK?
Overall people are missing that there are many opportunities for a reduction in price for some items. For example tech has been cheaper in the US for decades. This could change as there is no inherent reason that we should be paying more for a Chinese import phone than someone in the US. Its pretty much the same costs.
They charge more because they can, the likes of Apple seem to charge the same in £ as they do $. As Brexit is sinking the £ this could be seen as a benefit but good luck explaining it to people.
And yes some idiots will not have optimised but the general principle is sound and that is why you will have less choice and pay more for many goods and services.0 -
-
Here’s a double edged Brexit outcome.
There has been an increase in direct shipping between continental Europe and ROI.
This has seen a reduction in business at UK ports such as Holyhead which is a financial loss. However, it is a reduction in the number of lorries on GB roads.
In the greater scheme of things, it’s not a difference you’re going to be able to notice but it is nonetheless a benefit to reduce traffic.0 -
Yep, that is when I stoppedrick_chasey said:SC you have to remember John thinks having to import something hurts the U.K..
0 -
I would imagine better for the environment though.morstar said:Here’s a double edged Brexit outcome.
There has been an increase in direct shipping between continental Europe and ROI.
This has seen a reduction in business at UK ports such as Holyhead which is a financial loss. However, it is a reduction in the number of lorries on GB roads.
In the greater scheme of things, it’s not a difference you’re going to be able to notice but it is nonetheless a benefit to reduce traffic.0 -
Air pollution in UK yes.TheBigBean said:
I would imagine better for the environment though.morstar said:Here’s a double edged Brexit outcome.
There has been an increase in direct shipping between continental Europe and ROI.
This has seen a reduction in business at UK ports such as Holyhead which is a financial loss. However, it is a reduction in the number of lorries on GB roads.
In the greater scheme of things, it’s not a difference you’re going to be able to notice but it is nonetheless a benefit to reduce traffic.
Not sure about the extra container ship journeys though? They're pretty bad for the environment, but not sure about in comparison with lorries.0 -
I think they are better per tonne.elbowloh said:
Air pollution in UK yes.TheBigBean said:
I would imagine better for the environment though.morstar said:Here’s a double edged Brexit outcome.
There has been an increase in direct shipping between continental Europe and ROI.
This has seen a reduction in business at UK ports such as Holyhead which is a financial loss. However, it is a reduction in the number of lorries on GB roads.
In the greater scheme of things, it’s not a difference you’re going to be able to notice but it is nonetheless a benefit to reduce traffic.
Not sure about the extra container ship journeys though? They're pretty bad for the environment, but not sure about in comparison with lorries.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26hKmAZqHps
