BREXIT - Is This Really Still Rumbling On? 😴

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Comments

  • david37
    david37 Posts: 1,313
    pangolin said:

    david37 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    EU firms not taking orders for delivery to the UK.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721

    I read this and laughed. A company with no links to the UK and no physical presence getting all upset when the UK asks them for some cash to access the market. I wonder how many letters from those unable to buy Dutch bike bits will be coming across MPs desks. I imagine people have got bigger issues to be writing to them about.
    Do you know what an illustrative example is?
    Businesses with no physical presence in UK will do less business in the UK. An entirely predictable result of Brexit and one that may benefit the UK taxpayer. Did any of the examples in the article lead you to think the UK was going to have a problem? Or are you still pissed that Brooks saddles entire inventory is in Italy.
    Benefit to the UK taxpayer bahaha.

    You are priceless.

    Shall I get my little illustrative charts out to show you, again?
    i have to tell you Rick that in the real world things dont work like in personnel at a bank.
    As a UK taxpayer I am loving this benefit of having fewer companies I can buy from. Too much choice was confusing. Put this one squarely in the pros column.
    did you buy much from them or is it a hypothetical pro?
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    ddraver said:

    Does someone have an early learning guide to all that VAT stuff?

    My knowledge of it is already a little poor...

    If 99 out of a hundred people don’t understand compound growth then a good deal less understand VAT
    Are you sure you are not one of the 99. Running my own limited company VAT is possible the simplest part of administering the business even though it gets done quarterly.
    But is your limited company just a service provider i.e. you as a self-employed contractor or are you actually selling goods and importing / exporting? I suspect the rules become a lot more complicated in the latter category.
  • david37
    david37 Posts: 1,313
    rick_chasey said:

    david37 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    EU firms not taking orders for delivery to the UK.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721

    I read this and laughed. A company with no links to the UK and no physical presence getting all upset when the UK asks them for some cash to access the market. I wonder how many letters from those unable to buy Dutch bike bits will be coming across MPs desks. I imagine people have got bigger issues to be writing to them about.
    Do you know what an illustrative example is?
    Businesses with no physical presence in UK will do less business in the UK. An entirely predictable result of Brexit and one that may benefit the UK taxpayer. Did any of the examples in the article lead you to think the UK was going to have a problem? Or are you still pissed that Brooks saddles entire inventory is in Italy.
    Benefit to the UK taxpayer bahaha.

    You are priceless.

    Shall I get my little illustrative charts out to show you, again?
    i have to tell you Rick that in the real world things dont work like in personnel at a bank.
    You're right I don't live in a world that is real, nor do I know anyone who does.

    well low skill low risk high reward is hardly the way most of the world works. however i accept it might be for you. you probably have "little illustrative charts " for that too. pays to keep it simple and not burdened by too much detail.

  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,698
    Hmm, this was the video I watched.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmUCwdmzgDo&t=1774s&ab_channel=MeetMagentoUK

    There is a whole world of context to this I've missed having never had to deal with it. I just assumed when wiggle.co.uk changed to wiggle.nl it was simply a postage thing. I didn't know there was this whole VAT palaver happening behind it too.

    It's interesting that they're going after the platforms for stuff now too.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,154
    Stevo_666 said:

    ddraver said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    ddraver said:

    True but I feel like I should know in this job...

    I cant actually answer this question to myself - If I ordered a rear Derailleur from wiggle, whilst I look bed in NL, did wiggle pay the VAT in the UK, or did they pay BTV in NL..?

    Think your spelling auto correct did something there - 'look bed'? I'll have a go if you can clarify the question.
    *Lived

    Alternatively the question would be, Where is VAT paid on an order from bike-discount.de, shipped to one of us in the UK..?

    (Also - what is "drop shipping"? This is a bad YouTube hole...)
    Ah, OK.

    Here's a couple of references for reading in your leisure time:
    https://icaew.com/brexit/uk-vat-after-the-transition-period
    https://gov.uk/government/publications/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021
    Although not sure if I could point you to a general VAT overview that is any better than what you can find on the net.

    As a non VAT registered individual under the new rules, depends on whether what you buy is below or above the £135 threshold. Above that and you pay import VAT (usually via FedEx or whoever calling you when the goods land here and asking for payment before they ship to you). Below that and the supplier or online platform has to charge UK VAT which will be included in the overall price.

    I think they are trying to shift the burden of the VAT onto the relevant suppliers rather then the individual buyer, but I can see the drawbacks for small direct sellers.

    Drop shipment in my world is where the goods are delivered direct from say manufacturer in country A to end customer in country B, but there is a third party such as a retailer or dealer in either country B or country C that takes title to the goods and is in the invoicing chain. It's a complex area with lots of permutations but quite often there is an obligation to register for VAT in the end customer country if the third party is in country C. And often the issue with end customer seeing the manufacturer charges if nobody swaps the manucactueprer paperwork out for the third party paperwork before delivery.

    HTH.
    I don't know what the previous threshold was for the UK before a company needed to have registration, but I would assume bike-discount.de would have reached it? I don't really understand why they would have not been charging UK VAT already, so why it would impact them that much. Unless it's just the hassle of changing to the new system isn't worth it to them.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,698
    That's what I thought too (though I didn't see any reference to that in the Brooks Press Release), I suspect that it's more to do with confusion on general customs.

    Who pays VAT and where, who fills in forms, how long will it take, how do returns work etc?

    What worries me now I'm stuck back here is that people like this (and Canyon, Rose, YT etc) just stop bothering with the UK. Canyon has a huge waiting list on almost every model. They can add a significant amount of extra beaurocracy to UK orders or just stop bothering and reduce the wait time to the rest of the EU.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Eventually most will sort it out albeit with small price increases.
    _
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,698
    I somewhat agree with you Rick, but how long did it take Canyon to set up a US Operation?

    Even a market that size was considered too much hassle for a looong time.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Another one for the pros column: my vet gets to make more profit from me having to get a rabies vaccine & pet passport for the dug (the one in my profile pic) to travel to another part of the UK.

    The benefits keep flooding in.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    ddraver said:

    I somewhat agree with you Rick, but how long did it take Canyon to set up a US Operation?

    Even a market that size was considered too much hassle for a looong time.

    Yeah sure. Look you know I think it's all nonsense.

    _
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,424
    kingstongraham said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    ddraver said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    ddraver said:

    True but I feel like I should know in this job...

    I cant actually answer this question to myself - If I ordered a rear Derailleur from wiggle, whilst I look bed in NL, did wiggle pay the VAT in the UK, or did they pay BTV in NL..?

    Think your spelling auto correct did something there - 'look bed'? I'll have a go if you can clarify the question.
    *Lived

    Alternatively the question would be, Where is VAT paid on an order from bike-discount.de, shipped to one of us in the UK..?

    (Also - what is "drop shipping"? This is a bad YouTube hole...)
    Ah, OK.

    Here's a couple of references for reading in your leisure time:
    https://icaew.com/brexit/uk-vat-after-the-transition-period
    https://gov.uk/government/publications/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021
    Although not sure if I could point you to a general VAT overview that is any better than what you can find on the net.

    As a non VAT registered individual under the new rules, depends on whether what you buy is below or above the £135 threshold. Above that and you pay import VAT (usually via FedEx or whoever calling you when the goods land here and asking for payment before they ship to you). Below that and the supplier or online platform has to charge UK VAT which will be included in the overall price.

    I think they are trying to shift the burden of the VAT onto the relevant suppliers rather then the individual buyer, but I can see the drawbacks for small direct sellers.

    Drop shipment in my world is where the goods are delivered direct from say manufacturer in country A to end customer in country B, but there is a third party such as a retailer or dealer in either country B or country C that takes title to the goods and is in the invoicing chain. It's a complex area with lots of permutations but quite often there is an obligation to register for VAT in the end customer country if the third party is in country C. And often the issue with end customer seeing the manufacturer charges if nobody swaps the manucactueprer paperwork out for the third party paperwork before delivery.

    HTH.
    I don't know what the previous threshold was for the UK before a company needed to have registration, but I would assume bike-discount.de would have reached it? I don't really understand why they would have not been charging UK VAT already, so why it would impact them that much. Unless it's just the hassle of changing to the new system isn't worth it to them.
    Before that it wasn't technically an import/export, it was an intra community supply so they would put German VAT on the bill. So the UK threshold was irrelevant.

    Now its an export there is no German VAT but UK VAT is due instead. Who now has to collect and hand over the UK VAT largely depends on the value of the shipment as above for consumers (different rules for VAT registered businesses - reverse charge as before).
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,424
    rick_chasey said:

    Eventually most will sort it out albeit with small price increases.

    Probably. Unless HMRC changes their mind
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    david37 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    david37 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    EU firms not taking orders for delivery to the UK.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721

    I read this and laughed. A company with no links to the UK and no physical presence getting all upset when the UK asks them for some cash to access the market. I wonder how many letters from those unable to buy Dutch bike bits will be coming across MPs desks. I imagine people have got bigger issues to be writing to them about.
    Do you know what an illustrative example is?
    Businesses with no physical presence in UK will do less business in the UK. An entirely predictable result of Brexit and one that may benefit the UK taxpayer. Did any of the examples in the article lead you to think the UK was going to have a problem? Or are you still pissed that Brooks saddles entire inventory is in Italy.
    Benefit to the UK taxpayer bahaha.

    You are priceless.

    Shall I get my little illustrative charts out to show you, again?
    i have to tell you Rick that in the real world things dont work like in personnel at a bank.
    You're right I don't live in a world that is real, nor do I know anyone who does.

    well low skill low risk high reward is hardly the way most of the world works. however i accept it might be for you. you probably have "little illustrative charts " for that too. pays to keep it simple and not burdened by too much detail.

    What are you even on about.
    _
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,154
    Don't see why it should be any different for Canyon to ship to the UK as to UAE or somewhere. Buyer pays duties on receipt.

    They just need to sort their system out to take account of the change, surely.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Look the real cost to Brexit isn't the drama of lots of firms not having sh!t in place trade right on 4th Jan 2021.

    Eventually, everyone will have the paperwork in place. But the marginal extra cost will put some firms off trading in the UK and will cost some UK firms. That in aggregate is expensive. Individually it won't be.

    That is what's so galling about it all. It leaves the UK poorer but in a way no-one really notices.

    _
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,424
    kingstongraham said:

    Don't see why it should be any different for Canyon to ship to the UK as to UAE or somewhere. Buyer pays duties on receipt.

    They just need to sort their system out to take account of the change, surely.

    For anything over £135 the UK fundamentally no different to any other non-EU sale destination. Its the lower value shipments that some direct suppliers have an issue with, most likely the smaller ones.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,154
    Stevo_666 said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Don't see why it should be any different for Canyon to ship to the UK as to UAE or somewhere. Buyer pays duties on receipt.

    They just need to sort their system out to take account of the change, surely.

    For anything over £135 the UK fundamentally no different to any other non-EU sale destination. Its the lower value shipments that some direct suppliers have an issue with, most likely the smaller ones.
    Quite - I don't think Canyon sell many bikes under £135. :smiley:
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,698
    I haven't checked recently but my point KG, was that for many years, they wouldn't sell to the UAE (or US)...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,154
    ddraver said:

    I haven't checked recently but my point KG, was that for many years, they wouldn't sell to the UAE (or US)...

    US not on their website as a shipping location, but UAE is.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,919
    My recent experience of trying to buy something from Portgual is that was far easier and quicker to buy it from a Portuguese shop in the UK.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,698
    'Ere financial peeps, What does this mean?

    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • david37
    david37 Posts: 1,313
    ddraver said:

    I somewhat agree with you Rick, but how long did it take Canyon to set up a US Operation?

    Even a market that size was considered too much hassle for a looong time.

    i think that was a legal rather than just taxation challenge in that particular instance
  • david37
    david37 Posts: 1,313
    rick_chasey said:

    david37 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    david37 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    EU firms not taking orders for delivery to the UK.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721

    I read this and laughed. A company with no links to the UK and no physical presence getting all upset when the UK asks them for some cash to access the market. I wonder how many letters from those unable to buy Dutch bike bits will be coming across MPs desks. I imagine people have got bigger issues to be writing to them about.
    Do you know what an illustrative example is?
    Businesses with no physical presence in UK will do less business in the UK. An entirely predictable result of Brexit and one that may benefit the UK taxpayer. Did any of the examples in the article lead you to think the UK was going to have a problem? Or are you still pissed that Brooks saddles entire inventory is in Italy.
    Benefit to the UK taxpayer bahaha.

    You are priceless.

    Shall I get my little illustrative charts out to show you, again?
    i have to tell you Rick that in the real world things dont work like in personnel at a bank.
    You're right I don't live in a world that is real, nor do I know anyone who does.

    well low skill low risk high reward is hardly the way most of the world works. however i accept it might be for you. you probably have "little illustrative charts " for that too. pays to keep it simple and not burdened by too much detail.

    What are you even on about.
    see, my point illustrated.
  • kingstonian
    kingstonian Posts: 2,847
    david37 said:

    ddraver said:

    I somewhat agree with you Rick, but how long did it take Canyon to set up a US Operation?

    Even a market that size was considered too much hassle for a looong time.

    i think that was a legal rather than just taxation challenge in that particular instance

    Also Canyon just didn’t have sufficient manufacturing capacity to cover the increased demand they predicted the US market would generate, and it took them ages to get that extra capacity in place.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    david37 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    david37 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    david37 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    EU firms not taking orders for delivery to the UK.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721

    I read this and laughed. A company with no links to the UK and no physical presence getting all upset when the UK asks them for some cash to access the market. I wonder how many letters from those unable to buy Dutch bike bits will be coming across MPs desks. I imagine people have got bigger issues to be writing to them about.
    Do you know what an illustrative example is?
    Businesses with no physical presence in UK will do less business in the UK. An entirely predictable result of Brexit and one that may benefit the UK taxpayer. Did any of the examples in the article lead you to think the UK was going to have a problem? Or are you still pissed that Brooks saddles entire inventory is in Italy.
    Benefit to the UK taxpayer bahaha.

    You are priceless.

    Shall I get my little illustrative charts out to show you, again?
    i have to tell you Rick that in the real world things dont work like in personnel at a bank.
    You're right I don't live in a world that is real, nor do I know anyone who does.

    well low skill low risk high reward is hardly the way most of the world works. however i accept it might be for you. you probably have "little illustrative charts " for that too. pays to keep it simple and not burdened by too much detail.

    What are you even on about.
    see, my point illustrated.
    Are you just attacking me or are you making a point?

    _
  • sungod
    sungod Posts: 17,355
    rick_chasey said:

    david37 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    david37 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    david37 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    TheBigBean said:

    EU firms not taking orders for delivery to the UK.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721

    I read this and laughed. A company with no links to the UK and no physical presence getting all upset when the UK asks them for some cash to access the market. I wonder how many letters from those unable to buy Dutch bike bits will be coming across MPs desks. I imagine people have got bigger issues to be writing to them about.
    Do you know what an illustrative example is?
    Businesses with no physical presence in UK will do less business in the UK. An entirely predictable result of Brexit and one that may benefit the UK taxpayer. Did any of the examples in the article lead you to think the UK was going to have a problem? Or are you still pissed that Brooks saddles entire inventory is in Italy.
    Benefit to the UK taxpayer bahaha.

    You are priceless.

    Shall I get my little illustrative charts out to show you, again?
    i have to tell you Rick that in the real world things dont work like in personnel at a bank.
    You're right I don't live in a world that is real, nor do I know anyone who does.

    well low skill low risk high reward is hardly the way most of the world works. however i accept it might be for you. you probably have "little illustrative charts " for that too. pays to keep it simple and not burdened by too much detail.

    What are you even on about.
    see, my point illustrated.
    Are you just attacking me or are you making a point?

    do not feed the troll
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    Pross said:

    john80 said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    ddraver said:

    Does someone have an early learning guide to all that VAT stuff?

    My knowledge of it is already a little poor...

    If 99 out of a hundred people don’t understand compound growth then a good deal less understand VAT
    Are you sure you are not one of the 99. Running my own limited company VAT is possible the simplest part of administering the business even though it gets done quarterly.
    But is your limited company just a service provider i.e. you as a self-employed contractor or are you actually selling goods and importing / exporting? I suspect the rules become a lot more complicated in the latter category.
    Designing a range of remotely operated mechanical handling equipment is complicated and involves a number of standards. I have in the past sold goods for a specialist product on four continents and it was not that hard. These companies have taken the view that to register at under £200 and figure it out means that they don't make enough money on their current order volume to be bothered. It all just increases market share for those companies that do have a UK presence and are interested in the market. I am not going to cry for retailers not based in the UK that add little to the UKs economy.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited January 2021
    ddraver said:

    'Ere financial peeps, What does this mean?

    If you wanted to by listed shares of EU companies you could do that in the UK.

    Most firms who are doing that have moved the buying process to the local countries.

    Eg if you wanted to buy shares in Deutsche Bank (because you’re an idiot) lots of firms would do that in London.

    Now they are going to the exchange on which DB is listed (in Germany) to buy them there.

    So the fees generated from offering the services of buying and selling those DB shares are generated in Germany not in the U.K.

    I think London had around 30% of the market in terms of volume.
    _
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    rick_chasey said:

    Look the real cost to Brexit isn't the drama of lots of firms not having sh!t in place trade right on 4th Jan 2021.

    Eventually, everyone will have the paperwork in place. But the marginal extra cost will put some firms off trading in the UK and will cost some UK firms. That in aggregate is expensive. Individually it won't be.

    That is what's so galling about it all. It leaves the UK poorer but in a way no-one really notices.

    Do you understand what a deficit is and how it might not be a great thing for the UK.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited January 2021
    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Look the real cost to Brexit isn't the drama of lots of firms not having sh!t in place trade right on 4th Jan 2021.

    Eventually, everyone will have the paperwork in place. But the marginal extra cost will put some firms off trading in the UK and will cost some UK firms. That in aggregate is expensive. Individually it won't be.

    That is what's so galling about it all. It leaves the UK poorer but in a way no-one really notices.

    Do you understand what a deficit is and how it might not be a great thing for the UK.
    Deficit in what?

    Deficit in basic economics knowledge?
    _

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